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Qualifications for the Messiah

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't know why it took three posts to ask the same question, but again, to G-d.
I truly doubt my relatives were informed they would be accountable to God. Now since they were Jews by birth and heritage, if they didn't teach and didn't care (they went to synagogue on the high holy days), what about when you believe the messiah you say is not so important comes?
Aside from going over Rambam's articles of faith, I can guarantee you that not every Jewish male says or even knows them, but may go to synagogue from time to time.
As you say, meted out by heaven. God knows the heart.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I truly doubt my relatives were informed they would be accountable to God. Now since they were Jews by birth and heritage, if they didn't teach and didn't care (they went to synagogue on the high holy days), what about when you believe the messiah you say is not so important comes?
I'm not clear what your question is.

Aside from going over Rambam's articles of faith, I can guarantee you that not every Jewish male says or even knows them, but may go to synagogue from time to time.
As you say, meted out by heaven. God knows the heart.
Tinok shenishba - Wikipedia
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
God told the Israelites via Moses what to do, how to act. If they as a nation did not, there were penalties exacted. Remember -- God said you must have no other gods before Him.
I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Because the prophecies in the Tanach would have been clearly fulfilled through the leadership of one person as described in the Tanach.

...but if they don't, then they don't. It's not vital that a person believes the Messiah has come. It doesn't impact anything.
Thank you. I believe our conversation is likely pretty much over. I've been where you're at, and it's almost like being in limbo. I'm smiling as I say this. So -- all I can say now is, have a nice day and I'm glad I'm at where I'm at and no more where I was. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this.
I take my last comment back so I will ask you as an individual. Do you believe what is said in the Torah to have been written by Moses? Or do you believe it maybe was not written by Moses, you know like all or most of it after his lifetime, AND is mostly a fable, maybe based on some real things?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I take my last comment back so I will ask you as an individual. Do you believe what is said in the Torah to have been written by Moses? Or do you believe it maybe was not written by Moses, you know like all or most of it after his lifetime, AND is mostly a fable, maybe based on some real things?
I'm an Ultra-Orthodox/Haredi Jew. I not only believe it was written by Moses, I believe that it's a required belief for Jews.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm an Ultra-Orthodox/Haredi Jew. I not only believe it was written by Moses, I believe that it's a required belief for Jews.
I believe the Torah (Tanach) was written by Moses, and is true. The question therefore arises as we might interpret it to be in part a fable, or -- absolutely true. I believe it is true as reported, not a fable in part.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I believe the Torah (Tanach) was written by Moses, and is true. The question therefore arises as we might interpret it to be in part a fable, or -- absolutely true. I believe it is true as reported, not a fable in part.
Thanks for letting me know.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Torah and Tanakh are not the same. It would have been quite a feat for Moses to have written the Book of Kings.
I was speaking of what is commonly referred to as the first five books. So you believe Moses wrote them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thanks for letting me know.
Sure, but what about you? Do you believe what Moses wrote, as truth and not fable? Somehow I must have missed your answer to that. Then perhaps we can talk. Because if you don't believe Moses wrote the truth and nothing but, there is little to discuss about your belief about a messiah and what you think he will do or where he will come from. So let's see your answer to that, Tumah.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Sure, but what about you? Do you believe what Moses wrote, as truth and not fable? Somehow I must have missed your answer to that. Then perhaps we can talk. Because if you don't believe Moses wrote the truth and nothing but, there is little to discuss about your belief about a messiah and what you think he will do or where he will come from. So let's see your answer to that, Tumah.
You didn't miss my answer, you didn't ask the question, you only gave me your unsolicited opinion.
Haredi Jews (and I'm sure the overwhelming majority of Modern Orthodox) believe that everything in the Torah today is what Moses wrote and of course that everything Moses wrote is true.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You didn't miss my answer, you didn't ask the question, you only gave me your unsolicited opinion.
Haredi Jews (and I'm sure the overwhelming majority of Modern Orthodox) believe that everything in the Torah today is what Moses wrote and of course that everything Moses wrote is true.
OK, thank you. Sorry if I didn't present it properly. To reiterate, so that I completely understand, you believe (1) the flood of Noah actually happened as Moses described it, (2) Eve was made from Adam's rib, (3) a serpent spoke to Eve and she ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Right? (That's for starters...) And thank you, by the way. Nice talking to you, I see you're 'on' now, I can't stay on but appreciate the conversation.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
OK, thank you. Sorry if I didn't present it properly. To reiterate, so that I completely understand, you believe (1) the flood of Noah actually happened as Moses described it,
The flood actually happened, although Moses only described certain parts of it.
(2) Eve was made from Adam's rib,
Eve was somehow derived from Adam.
(3) a serpent spoke to Eve and she ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Right?
There was communication between Eve and the serpent and she ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
(That's for starters...) And thank you, by the way. Nice talking to you, I see you're 'on' now, I can't stay on but appreciate the conversation.
I'm here and there. The Sabbath is coming in in about an hour, so I stop by between getting prepared.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The flood actually happened, although Moses only described certain parts of it.

Eve was somehow derived from Adam.

There was communication between Eve and the serpent and she ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I'm here and there. The Sabbath is coming in in about an hour, so I stop by between getting prepared.
Ok I'll go over your answers later as well. Thanks.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The qualifications of the Messiah are to be a male patrilineal descendant from the House of David (and of course to have a Jewish mother). To be very observant of the Written and Oral Law. To bring all the Jews back to following the Torah. To build the Temple. Gather the dispersed Jews back to Israel. And to cause the world to turn to the Jewish G-d.

Of course, there's no way to know his genealogy today, so for that we'll have to rely on his having fulfilled all the other things. And it does automatically exclude any Priests or Levites.

Rabbi Schneerson was the Grand Rabbi of Chabad/Lubavitch. Chabad/Lubavitch is one of the top two largest Hassidic groups in the world. During his lifetime, the Rabbi made great inroads in fulfilling some of the requirements the Messiah would fulfill, leading his followers to believe he was the Messiah. After his death, there remains a sub-group of that sect that still believes he will be resurrected to be the Messiah and another group who believes he hasn't even died.

The comparison of this belief to Christianity has been made many times. Of course, a key difference is that he actually worked to bring people closer to G-d and to Jewish Law, as opposed to closer to worshiping a man. Still, the nonsense about being resurrected is still close enough to Christianity to make everyone else uncomfortable around them (and bear in mind that even though they're the largest Hassidic sect, they're still a fraction of the entire Orthodox and even Hassidic world). And although there's not numbers on it, it's also not the entire sect who believes these things, just a large portion of them.

The Grand Rabbi of Chabad was very observant of the Written and Oral Law. He worked very hard to bring Jewish back to following Torah. He also put effort in brining non-Jews to turn to G-d. There had not been anyone as successful as he was in a very long time. So there was definitely reason to think he potentially the Messiah at the time. However, like Bar Kochba, partial fulfillment isn't enough and so he was disqualified with his death.
Ok re-reading this, I see you said he was disqualified with his death. Please explain what you mean by that when you have time. How was he disqualified?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Ok re-reading this, I see you said he was disqualified with his death. Please explain what you mean by that when you have time. How was he disqualified?
He did not fulfill the prophecies before he died. He's no longer available to fulfill the prophecies.
 
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