Qualifications for the Messiah

[YoursTrue]

We would recognize the Messiah by the things he's done. I've quoted to you previously, the prophecies that the Messiah must fulfil from Scriptures. The person who fulfills all of them will be recognized as the Messiah.

so it's been how long now since when? Anyway, now I wonder if a person believes in evolution rather than direct creation of Adam and Eve, how long would you say some are waiting to see if they see a Messiah? Just figuring how those two things, evolution or creation correspond with the possibility of a Messiah. If one thinks creation and Adam and Eve are fables, why would a believer in evolution or that the Torah is a made up book, think a Messiah is needed?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's right. Also, depending on whether your cousin is a male or female, he won't be considered Jewish, let alone a potential messiah by anyone more traditional than Reform Judaism.
It's not really relevant, but there's a misconception (among liberal Jews as well) that a bar-mitzvah is similar to baptism, when it's not at all. The customs that people do for a bar-mitzvah are celebrations of a mile-stone, not an initiation.

Re-reading this, please explain why baptism might correspond in some minds to bar mitzvah.

 

[Tumah]

so it's been how long now since when? Anyway, now I wonder if a person believes in evolution rather than direct creation of Adam and Eve, how long would you say some are waiting to see if they see a Messiah? Just figuring how those two things, evolution or creation correspond with the possibility of a Messiah. If one thinks creation and Adam and Eve are fables, why would a believer in evolution or that the Torah is a made up book, think a Messiah is needed?

Because the prophecies in the Tanach would have been clearly fulfilled through the leadership of one person as described in the Tanach.

...but if they don't, then they don't. It's not vital that a person believes the Messiah has come. It doesn't impact anything.

 

[Tumah]

Re-reading this, please explain why baptism might correspond in some minds to bar mitzvah.

Because baptism is a component of a ritual initiation into Christianity.
A bar mitzvah is achieved by reaching your 13th birthday. Everything that people do for the bar mitzvah is just celebration. It's not the initiation that many people think it is.

 

[Muffled]

Although this is the Debate Forum, based on recent posts about a ('the') Messiah, I am asking a question. What qualifications must 'the' Messiah fill? For instance, I was wondering about Rabbi Schneerson. Some thought he was the Messiah and were waiting by his grave for him to come out. This makes me wonder -- do Jews believe the one filling the role of Messiah is to be resurrected?

I believe he must come from Bethlehem and Galilee according to prophecy.

I believe he must be born of a virgin according to prophecy.

I believe he had to be named Jesus according to prophecy.

I believe he had to be flayed according to prophecy.

I believe he had to be resurrected according to prophesy.

 

[Muffled]

" In future time, the King Mashiach will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will rebuild the [Beis Ha]Mikdash and gather in the dispersed remnant of Israel. Then, in his days, all the statutes will be reinstituted as in former times. We will offer sacrifices and observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars set forth in the Torah."

"If a king will arise from the House of David who delves deeply into the study of the Torah and, like David his ancestor, observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G‑d; — we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach."

"If he succeeds in the above, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach."

The Laws Concerning Mashiach - Chapters 11 & 12 of Hilchos Melachim from the Mishneh Torah of the Rambam

I believe He will not restore the physical kingdom until He returns.

 

[Muffled]

Wow, that's quite the challenge.

I believe the anti-Chist - Devil incarnate is able to make it look like he is doing that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Because the prophecies in the Tanach would have been clearly fulfilled through the leadership of one person as described in the Tanach.

...but if they don't, then they don't. It's not vital that a person believes the Messiah has come. It doesn't impact anything.

Belief is one thing. But if, according to your belief, the Messiah comes, what then? Will it 'impact' anything? The thing is with Jesus, he raised the dead, performed healings, and then (yes, I believe it) was raised from the dead.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe He will not restore the physical kingdom until He returns.

physical kingdom? What's that?

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe he must come from Bethlehem and Galilee according to prophecy.

I believe he must be born of a virgin according to prophecy.

I believe he had to be named Jesus according to prophecy.

I believe he had to be flayed according to prophecy.

I believe he had to be resurrected according to prophesy.

Can you please show scriptures backing up your viewpoint?

 

[YoursTrue]

Because baptism is a component of a ritual initiation into Christianity.
A bar mitzvah is achieved by reaching your 13th birthday. Everything that people do for the bar mitzvah is just celebration. It's not the initiation that many people think it is.

There are various types of baptisms in the ecclesiastical arrangement. I guess, now that you mention it, that infant baptism is such that declaring the infant will be raised in parameters of whatever church his overseers belong to. Adult baptism is different. And it is differently accepted insofar as the different sects of Christendom allow. That is hardly a complete explanation, but upon examination, I see the following per wikipedia: (I bolded what I thought was significantly pertinent to this conversation):

"According to Jewish law, when a Jewish boy is 13 years old, he becomes accountable for his actions and becomes a bar mitzvah. ...Before the child reaches bar mitzvah age, parents hold the responsibility for their child's actions. After this age, the boys and girls bear their own responsibility for Jewish ritual law, tradition, and ethics, and are able to participate in all areas of Jewish community life. Traditionally, the father of the bar mitzvah gives thanks to God that he is no longer punished for the child's sins. In addition to being considered accountable for their actions from a religious perspective, a 13-year-old male may be counted towards an Orthodox prayer quorum and may lead prayer and other religious services in the family and the community."

Little did I realize that the father thinks he is not longer accountable for his child's sins. Very, very interesting. Bar and bat mitzvah - Wikipedia

 

[Tumah]

Belief is one thing. But if, according to your belief, the Messiah comes, what then? Will it 'impact' anything?

He will usher in the Messianic Age as described in multiple places throughout the Tanach. The point is that the Messiah has limited value, he's a prominent leader, like Moses, but not really anything more. It's the Age that he ushers in that's important. Peace on earth, the ability to serve G-d in the Temple, everyone believing in G-d, the resurrection of the dead, etc.

 

[Tumah]

There are various types of baptisms in the ecclesiastical arrangement. I guess, now that you mention it, that infant baptism is such that declaring the infant will be raised in parameters of whatever church his overseers belong to. Adult baptism is different. And it is differently accepted insofar as the different sects of Christendom allow.

I was referring to what's written here
Baptism - Wikipedia

That is hardly a complete explanation, but upon examination, I see the following per wikipedia: (I bolded what I thought was significantly pertinent to this conversation):

"According to Jewish law, when a Jewish boy is 13 years old, he becomes accountable for his actions and becomes a bar mitzvah.

This is what the words bar mitzvah means. Someone who is now required to follow the commandments. That's the point of the age. Full accountability isn't actually until 20 years old, but for the most part, at 13 he becomes accountable.

...Before the child reaches bar mitzvah age, parents hold the responsibility for their child's actions. After this age, the boys and girls bear their own responsibility for Jewish ritual law, tradition, and ethics, and are able to participate in all areas of Jewish community life. Traditionally, the father of the bar mitzvah gives thanks to God that he is no longer punished for the child's sins. In addition to being considered accountable for their actions from a religious perspective, a 13-year-old male may be counted towards an Orthodox prayer quorum and may lead prayer and other religious services in the family and the community."

Little did I realize that the father thinks he is not longer accountable for his child's sins. Very, very interesting. Bar and bat mitzvah - Wikipedia

Up until age 13, the father is required to train his son to follow Jewish Law and he is accountable for his failure in that regard. Once the son is 13, a father is no longer obligated to teach his son, the son is considered an adult and required to teach himself. So the father is no longer accountable.

 

[YoursTrue]

I was referring to what's written here
Baptism - Wikipedia


This is what the words bar mitzvah means. Someone who is now required to follow the commandments. That's the point of the age. Full accountability isn't actually until 20 years old, but for the most part, at 13 he becomes accountable.


Up until age 13, the father is required to train his son to follow Jewish Law and he is accountable for his failure in that regard. Once the son is 13, a father is no longer obligated to teach his son, the son is considered an adult and required to teach himself. So the father is no longer accountable.

Now my question is, accountable to whom and on what basis?

 

[YoursTrue]

I was referring to what's written here
Baptism - Wikipedia


This is what the words bar mitzvah means. Someone who is now required to follow the commandments. That's the point of the age. Full accountability isn't actually until 20 years old, but for the most part, at 13 he becomes accountable.


Up until age 13, the father is required to train his son to follow Jewish Law and he is accountable for his failure in that regard. Once the son is 13, a father is no longer obligated to teach his son, the son is considered an adult and required to teach himself. So the father is no longer accountable.

I know many Jewish men that never taught their sons anything much. So when you say accountable, to whom would the father be accountable? The synagogue? God?

 

[YoursTrue]

I was referring to what's written here
Baptism - Wikipedia


This is what the words bar mitzvah means. Someone who is now required to follow the commandments. That's the point of the age. Full accountability isn't actually until 20 years old, but for the most part, at 13 he becomes accountable.


Up until age 13, the father is required to train his son to follow Jewish Law and he is accountable for his failure in that regard. Once the son is 13, a father is no longer obligated to teach his son, the son is considered an adult and required to teach himself. So the father is no longer accountable.

Again -- you say the father is required to train his son or children to follow Jewish law. (Which Jewish law, by the way? That of the orthodox or conservative or reform perhaps?) I know the commandment that exhorts the father to inculcate God's laws and ways on the son's heart. But what if the father doies not? Then what? I mean, required means that if one doesn't do it, there's a penalty. Such as it's required, for instance, for someone who is driving a car to have a license, according to the laws in the United States. If that law is not met, there's a penalty.
Deuteronomy 11:18-20, it is written:
"Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as reminders on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19Teach them to your children, speaking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.20Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates,"
If these are not obeyed, since you say it is required, is there a penalty?

 

[Tumah]

Again -- you say the father is required to train his son or children to follow Jewish law. (Which Jewish law, by the way? That of the orthodox or conservative or reform perhaps?)

We're talking about traditional Law, so that would be Orthodox. I don't know what the Conservative ideology requires of the constituents and Reform allows you to choose what you want to do.

I know the commandment that exhorts the father to inculcate God's laws and ways on the son's heart. But what if the father doies not? Then what? I mean, required means that if one doesn't do it, there's a penalty. Such as it's required, for instance, for someone who is driving a car to have a license, according to the laws in the United States. If that law is not met, there's a penalty.
Deuteronomy 11:18-20, it is written:
"Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as reminders on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19Teach them to your children, speaking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.20Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates,"
If these are not obeyed, since you say it is required, is there a penalty?

There's no penalty listed to be enacted by a Jewish court. And anyway, since there's no action, there wouldn't be one. So it's something that is meted out by Heaven as G-d sees fit.

 

[Tumah]

I know many Jewish men that never taught their sons anything much. So when you say accountable, to whom would the father be accountable? The synagogue? God?

To G-d. There's no accountability to a synagogue.

 

[Tumah]

Now my question is, accountable to whom and on what basis?

I don't know why it took three posts to ask the same question, but again, to G-d.

 

[YoursTrue]

We're talking about traditional Law, so that would be Orthodox. I don't know what the Conservative ideology requires of the constituents and Reform allows you to choose what you want to do.


There's no penalty listed to be enacted by a Jewish court. And anyway, since there's no action, there wouldn't be one. So it's something that is meted out by Heaven as G-d sees fit.

God told the Israelites via Moses what to do, how to act. If they as a nation did not, there were penalties exacted. Remember -- God said you must have no other gods before Him.