QAnon, The Bible, and Motivated Reasoning

[Left Coast]

I recently started watching the Netflix docuseries on QAnon. It's fascinating for multiple reasons, if depressing. One of the things that struck me about it is the way that Q believers will pour over every word typed by Q, trying to find ways to interpret them/find their secret meaning, contorting themselves into pretzels to find ways that Q's words are somehow accurate and rationalizing all the times they aren't.

There is a similar mentality at work here, it seems to me, as there is with Biblical fundamentalists who obsess over every word of the Bible and try to find ways the Bible is accurate, even if obliquely, and rationalize the times it isn't. Every new headline in the news is taken as confirmation of their unshakeable belief in the accuracy of their source of information. And like Q, the source is juuuust accurate enough here and there to keep people hooked and convince them that the times the source is clearly wrong must have some alternate explanation, or a hidden meaning, or the problem is with our interpretation of it, etc.

This is the problem of motivated reasoning. Once you start with a conclusion before you even look at new evidence, your mind has an extraordinary ability to find ways to preserve your paradigm, even when presented with contradictory information, and even when rationalizing that information requires totally implausible and conspiratorial explanations.

In summary, it is no surprise to me that many Christian fundamentalists are devotees of Q, and vice versa.

Agree? Disagree? Further thoughts?

 

[Secret Chief]

contorting themselves into pretzels

I'm so nicking that.

 

[Secret Chief]

Sounds like a case of confirmation bias, which we all are prone to?

 

[Left Coast]

Sounds like a case of confirmation bias, which we all are prone to?

Yes, it's just dialed to 11 in the case of QAnon/fundamentalism.

 

[SomeRandom]

I recently started watching the Netflix docuseries on QAnon. It's fascinating for multiple reasons, if depressing. One of the things that struck me about it is the way that Q believers will pour over every word typed by Q, trying to find ways to interpret them/find their secret meaning, contorting themselves into pretzels to find ways that Q's words are somehow accurate and rationalizing all the times they aren't.

There is a similar mentality at work here, it seems to me, as there is with Biblical fundamentalists who obsess over every word of the Bible and try to find ways the Bible is accurate, even if obliquely, and rationalize the times it isn't. Every new headline in the news is taken as confirmation of their unshakeable belief in the accuracy of their source of information. And like Q, the source is juuuust accurate enough here and there to keep people hooked and convince them that the times the source is clearly wrong must have some alternate explanation, or a hidden meaning, or the problem is with our interpretation of it, etc.

This is the problem of motivated reasoning. Once you start with a conclusion before you even look at new evidence, your mind has an extraordinary ability to find ways to preserve your paradigm, even when presented with contradictory information, and even when rationalizing that information requires totally implausible and conspiratorial explanations.

In summary, it is no surprise to me that many Christian fundamentalists are devotees of Q, and vice versa.

Agree? Disagree? Further thoughts?

Full disclosure I’ve been watching the QAnon peeps through the filter of various American “political pundits” through twitch for a while now.
Even though I’m not American.
It’s like watching a car crash in slow motion

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes, it's just dialed to 11 in the case of QAnon/fundamentalism.

The more passionately held the belief, the higher round the dial I suppose. Think terrorist.

 

[Augustus]

This is the problem of motivated reasoning. Once you start with a conclusion before you even look at new evidence, your mind has an extraordinary ability to find ways to preserve your paradigm, even when presented with contradictory information, and even when rationalizing that information requires totally implausible and conspiratorial explanations.

In summary, it is no surprise to me that many Christian fundamentalists are devotees of Q, and vice versa.

Agree? Disagree? Further thoughts?

I mostly agree. Things like Q anon are more shocking as they are so obviously nonsense, but it is common in all sectors of society, including the highly educated (often because they are highly educated).

Q believers will pour over every word typed by Q, trying to find ways to interpret them/find their secret meaning, contorting themselves into pretzels to find ways that Q's words are somehow accurate and rationalizing all the times they aren't.

We see the same on the other side of the political spectrum with Critical Theory which is basically a linguistic puzzle where you construct a narrative to explain the 'truth' behind what people say too.

(not saying CT is completely without merit, just that it often is no more than a linguistic game where one simply asserts something as being self-evidently true)

The more Theory you learn, the more the ways you can justify reality in accordance to ideology.

If you can provide a narrative explanation of events that is emotionally satisfying, it is easy enough to link it to fragments of reality chosen for convenience.

The more you can 'crack the code' the greater you social status within the group becomes which encourages further participation in the game.

A lot of the 'anti-racist' stuff today is the product of this where black folk attacking Asians is further evidence of 'white supremacy'.

Or not admitting you are racist is proof you are racist and suffering from 'white fragility'.

Or racial segregation is a great step forward for diversity.

Quite obviously nonsense, but pass for profound truths in certain circles where contradicting them would bring social cost.


[This isn't meant as 'whataboutism', or that "X is better/worse/the same as Y" or to change the topic, just to show that things we think of as being beyond the pale are often just more extreme forms of normal cognitive functioning and social dynamics. We all do things like this to some extent, it's easy to see when it is people who differ greatly from us, but much harder to identify the closer to home it becomes. It is about far more than confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance too]

In summary, it is no surprise to me that many Christian fundamentalists are devotees of Q, and vice versa.

It is no surprise but, for me, it's more about the social dynamics that a product of their experience of scriptural hermeneutics.

It is more about identification of support for Trump with virtue and support for Dems with 'evil', something that has been ongoing for a long time.

Once people have made a public emotional commitment to an idea, they will very rarely backtrack and will instead double down. When membership in a community is linked with virtue, the more one stretches the belief system to extremes, the more one signals their virtues by public commitment to these. This forms a vicious cycle as the more extreme the public pronouncements, the harder it becomes to back down as deviation from the views of the group is seen as 'heresy' and evidence of being a group traitor.

This is why extreme polarisation begets even more extreme polarisation, especially in the online world where there is no cost to being wrong, but certainly is cost to not being a good group member.

This relates to what we previously discussed about the problems with abstraction.

The greater the level of abstraction, the more one's worth is determined by signalling rather than tangible action.

In a small scale, real world community, it is hard to fool others you are a good community member unless you carry out tangible actions to benefit others consistently over time.

In online communities dealing with purely abstract arguments, you simply have to publicly say the right things and attack those who say the wrong things. As such actions incur minimal costs, one key way to stand out is to push the boundaries.

BS becomes exponentially easier at a large scale and with greater abstraction and disputes take place in a 'virtual reality' increasingly departed from a more substantial reality.

 

[Left Coast]

... things we think of as being beyond the pale are often just more extreme forms of normal cognitive functioning and social dynamics. We all do things like this to some extent, it's easy to see when it is people who differ greatly from us, but much harder to identify the closer to home it becomes. It is about far more than confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance too

On this we agree. Everyone engages in these behaviors to some extent at some point, I think. With those involved in QAnon, as with Biblical fundamentalism, these same failures of critical thinking are dialed to 11.

In online communities dealing with purely abstract arguments, you simply have to publicly say the right things and attack those who say the wrong things. As such actions incur minimal costs, one key way to stand out is to push the boundaries.

BS becomes exponentially easier at a large scale and with greater abstraction and disputes take place in a 'virtual reality' increasingly departed from a more substantial reality.

It's certainly true that keyboard activism is a problem and can be disconnected from real-world concerns and actions. Similarly with people who spend hours "researching" and peddling conspiracies as in QAnon.

 

[Windwalker]

I recently started watching the Netflix docuseries on QAnon. It's fascinating for multiple reasons, if depressing. One of the things that struck me about it is the way that Q believers will pour over every word typed by Q, trying to find ways to interpret them/find their secret meaning, contorting themselves into pretzels to find ways that Q's words are somehow accurate and rationalizing all the times they aren't.

There is a similar mentality at work here, it seems to me, as there is with Biblical fundamentalists who obsess over every word of the Bible and try to find ways the Bible is accurate, even if obliquely, and rationalize the times it isn't.

I think you are referring to the HBO special on Q, unless there is a different one on Netflix? Also on HBO Max right now, is the four part docuseries on the Heaven's Gate cult. You'll see the same levels of cognitive dissoances and signs reading going on there as well. That's why people call Q-Anon, and Trumpism, cultic. It very much follows the same patterns.

Currently I've finished 4 of the Q episodes on HBO Max. It's hard to watch it, but important to to understand just how diseased our culture has become where this con-job of Q by the owners of 8-Chan takes people in the way it does.

BTW, the fundamentalists that buy Q, read the Bible will the same kinds of distortions as Q conspiracies. Sadly, they are the ones refusing to take vaccines now, putting the lives of their neighbors at risk. So I see that version of Christianity, as kind of game, not actual religious faith. It has nothing to do at all with actual Truth, but rather the celebration of lies for the sake of group identifications. Cultic, in other words.

 

[Left Coast]

I think you are referring to the HBO special on Q, unless there is a different one on Netflix? Also on HBO Max right now, is the four part docuseries on the Heaven's Gate cult. You'll see the same levels of cognitive dissoances and signs reading going on there as well. That's why people call Q-Anon, and Trumpism, cultic. It very much follows the same patterns.

Currently I've finished 4 of the Q episodes on HBO Max. It's hard to watch it, but important to to understand just how diseased our culture has become where this con-job of Q by the owners of 8-Chan takes people in the way it does.

BTW, the fundamentalists that buy Q, read the Bible will the same kinds of distortions as Q conspiracies. Sadly, they are the ones refusing to take vaccines now, putting the lives of their neighbors at risk. So I see that version of Christianity, as kind of game, not actual religious faith. It has nothing to do at all with actual Truth, but rather the celebration of lies for the sake of group identifications. Cultic, in other words.

You're right! It is HBO, my mistake.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Agree? Disagree? Further thoughts?

The mammal brain uses a lot of energy, and it takes energy to change your perspective. Expensive perceptive change is biologically discouraged until circumstances force reconsideration. Some people have internal pain/anxiety/hunger/etc which drives them through new paradigms, but most people fit into society as is.

Hunger for knowledge is rare. There is a mental reward for learning but only when the resistance to learning is overcome. We learn as long as the learning is pleasurable enough to break the learning barrier. Its like with musical taste. We listen to what we like, and only occasionally do we learn to like something we didn't before. Do I like dubsteb? No, I do not. Why? Its because it would take effort to appreciate it, and I don't perceive the pleasure which would undoubtedly come from learning to like it. Do I like country? No, for the same reason. To me these are not good music, but the truth is they are good music forms which I have not adapted to. If there were a gradual progression of songs taking me from music I like towards dubstep or country then I might learn to like them without noticing the effort. The same goes for taste in food, taste in clothing, taste in ideas.

 

[Kooky]

This is the problem of motivated reasoning. Once you start with a conclusion before you even look at new evidence, your mind has an extraordinary ability to find ways to preserve your paradigm, even when presented with contradictory information, and even when rationalizing that information requires totally implausible and conspiratorial explanations.

I was for a long time encountering this phenomenon, but this is the first time I've seen a proper term to describe it, thanks!

I would argue that the essence of motivated reasoning is not solely present in hardcore conspiracy theories. We all have certain religious, ethical, political or other beliefs and attitudes that are integral to our sense of self and the way we see the world, and they don't usually come from logical reasoning - rather, the reverse often seems true, as any kind of argumentative reasoning is typically deployed to reinforce or defend these beliefs.
Now, I don't consider this kind of reasoning intrinsically harmful or problematic - as long as we realize that it's there and what it is for.

Where I think it becomes dangerous is when we attach conspirational thinking to our integral beliefs - or in the reverse, we encounter a conspiracy that becomes an integral element to our beliefs. At that point, the motivational reasoning we would only have employed to protect our perspective and our sense of self starts slowly slipping out of our control, and into behavior that for all intents and purposes we might call addictive or cult-like in its form.

 

[stvdv]

In summary, it is no surprise to me that many Christian fundamentalists are devotees of Q, and vice versa.

Agree? Disagree? Further thoughts?

True.
I have been observing this the past 3 years too

My favorite Scripture warns for this trap in Spiritual life as well as worldly life, using a small anecdote:

Kakatalia: A crow lands on a coconut tree, and a coconut drops, and falls on the ground. People debate how, why, etc. and are busy with these type of questions their whole life. Few ignore these things and focus on the questions that are really important to solve

 

[Left Coast]

True.
I have been observing this the past 3 years too

My favorite Scripture warns for this trap in Spiritual life as well as worldly life, using a small anecdote:

Kakatalia: A crow lands on a coconut tree, and a coconut drops, and falls on the ground. People debate how, why, etc. and are busy with these type of questions their whole life. Few ignore these things and focus on the questions that are really important to solve

Link to original story?

 

[PureX]

The common factor seems to be an obsession with being right. Probably driven by an intense fear of being wrong. But where this condition originates, and why is has become prominent in our modern culture is a mystery.

 

[Augustus]

The common factor seems to be an obsession with being right. Probably driven by an intense fear of being wrong. But where this condition originates, and why is has become prominent in our modern culture is a mystery.

It's less about being right, and more about belonging and a sense of self, imo.

I'd say our modern culture creates the perfect environment for many people to seek such a thing.

 

[PureX]

It's less about being right, and more about belonging and a sense of self, imo.

I'd say our modern culture creates the perfect environment for many people to seek such a thing.

I agree that it's a cult of personality identification, but it is centered on and held together by this idea of 'special' insight/righteousness.

 

[stvdv]

Link to original story?

Its from the Yoga Vasistha (Ancient Indian Scripture promising enlightenment, IF you study/practise it well of course):

An oft-recurring expression in this scripture is "Kakataliya" - a crow alights on the cocoanut palm tree and that very moment a ripe cocoanut falls. The two unrelated events thus seem to be related in time and space, though there is no causal relationship.

Such is life. Such is "creation". But the mind caught up in its own trap of logic questions "why" , invents a "why" and a "wherefore" to satisfy itself, conveniently ignoring the inconvenient questions that still haunt an intelligent mind.

 

[anna.]

In summary, it is no surprise to me that many Christian fundamentalists are devotees of Q, and vice versa.

Agree? Disagree? Further thoughts?

Definitely agree with your OP.

While I've followed coverage of QAnon (from a critical/negative perspective) for quite a while now, I haven't watched the series. One consideration: I've heard from a couple of sources that Hoback seems to become affected by the same kind of conspiratorial thinking and puzzle-solving he's investigating:

"The documentary falls prey to this kind of puzzle-solving, pattern-seeking mentality that is so prevalent among Q followers. While earlier episodes explore some of the broader implications of QAnon, eventually the documentary narrows its focus on one goal: exposing who Q is. Throughout the final episodes, Hoback builds a good case for one person in particular, someone who already topped many people’s lists of likely culprits."

So I might get around to watching it at some point, but I've asked myself if it's a good idea to give it more energy than I already have. I have a 'good enough' understanding of it, and maybe that's enough.

I read a really excellent explanation by a game designer of Q thinking, and think you'll appreciate it, particularly his insight on guided apophenia:

A Game Designer’s Analysis Of QAnon