• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Qabblah according to non-Jews

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree, but, I asked about this. It could be that the Chabad around here are liberal. But they don't screen people who come to classes. The material gets watered down ( I mean that in the most loving way ) if there is concern.

That's why I think it's important to look at what it is, exactly, that is being taught.
Are non-Jews aware that they can come to Chabad classes?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree, but, I asked about this. It could be that the Chabad around here are liberal. But they don't screen people who come to classes. The material gets watered down ( I mean that in the most loving way ) if there is concern. But also the subject matter itself would be completely boring to anyone who isn't interested in being a more observant Orthodox Jew.

That's why I think it's important to look at what it is, exactly, that is being taught.
Also, I don't think Chabad see teaching non-Jews as lechatchila. B'dia'vad at best, and I'm highly doubtful of that, too.

I agree that Chabad probably doesn't teach not-so-heavily-religious people heavy-Kabbalah.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Mistake? Not at all. In every generation there's an individual with the potential to be the Messiah. Bar Kochva was the individual of his generation. He actually came pretty close (certainly closer than Jesus, if Jesus even had any messianic potential in him - there's no way to really check that...). In Bar Kochva's time, they'd already started minting new Judean coins proclaiming their freedom. That's an accomplishment.

Interesting, I remember reading Maimonides' point that (I'm paraphrasing),"If someone rises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah and occupies himself with the commandments like David and he inspires all of Israel to walk in Torah and fights the battles of God, returns the exiles etc.", that it may be "assumed that he is Mashiach".

You're right that Kochba came close to that list of criteria, inasmuch as he formed an independent kingdom for a couple of years that witheld onslaught from the (far greater numbers, manpower, resources) of the Roman Empire and minted coins. But, arguably, his defeat was immeasurably costly to the Jewish people - I mean, it resulted in Jews being banned from Jerusalem and large-scale destruction of the Judean populace by the Roman legions to an even worse degree than the original Jewish War.

Would you say the same about the Lubbavitcher Rebbe in our era (i.e. as an individual who had the potential of becoming messiah even though he ultimately wasn't, as evidenced by his death)? He seems to have been the most widely known in more recent times and while he certainly wasn't a 'martial' type (winning battles or the like), I guess he arguably fulfilled the first criterion of inspiring other Jews to walk in Torah to an extent, with Chabad being such a well-known - if controversial - movement.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting, I remember reading Maimonides' point that (I'm paraphrasing),"If someone rises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah and occupies himself with the commandments like David and he inspires all of Israel to walk in Torah and fights the battles of God, returns the exiles etc.", that it may be "assumed that he is Mashiach".
"It should not occur to you that the King Messiah must bring wondrous signs or perform marvels or invent new things or revive the dead or anything like what the fools say. It is not so. For Rabbi Akiva, one of the wisest of the Sages of the Mishna, was King Ben Coziba’s124Bar Cochba. arms-bearer125I.e. his staunch supporter. and said that he was the King Messiah. He and all the Sages of his generation thought that he was the King Messiah, until he was killed because of his sins126He killed Rabbi Elazar HaModai.. Since he was killed, they then understood that he was not the one. The Sages never asked of him neither a sign nor a wonder. So, the essence of the matter is like this: The Laws and the Statutes of the Torah never change. We may not add to them nor detract from them. 127This last sentence is absent in most editions.Anyone who adds to or subtracts from them or reveals some new dimension to the Torah or understands the Commandments differently than their plain meaning is, for sure, an evil person and an Apikoris." (Rambam, Kings and Their Wars, 11)
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Would you say the same about the Lubbavitcher Rebbe in our era (i.e. as an individual who had the potential of becoming messiah even though he ultimately wasn't, as evidenced by his death)? He seems to have been the most widely known in more recent times and while he certainly wasn't a 'martial' type (winning battles or the like), I guess he fulfilled the first criterion of inspiring other Jews to walk in Torah.
He denied it himself.


I have no way of determining that. However, in terms of realistic potential, he was not in a position to be anything other than an advisor to kings and leaders, but not a political leader himself.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I agree that Chabad probably doesn't teach not-so-heavily-religious people heavy-Kabbalah.
They don't teach anyone heavy Kabbalah. They teach a little about the sefirot, a little about the 4 worlds, a little about the sitra achra, and that's about it. Then, they fast forward to the Alter Rebbe.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Non-Jews besides for you and other Noahides.
I think so; the thing for some (most?) is knowing about Chabad in the first place. If they don't have a large presence in a given area, one will have to search for them as it were and will come to know in the course of things. I know a lot of Christians do this (a Chabad Rabbi told me).
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I think so; the thing for some (most?) is knowing about Chabad in the first place. If they don't have a large presence in a given area, one will have to search for them as it were and will come to know in the course of things. I know a lot of Christians do this (a Chabad Rabbi told me).
Christians come to Chabad classes?! :eek:
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Christians come to Chabad classes?! :eek:
The good ones are on Shabbos before services. If someone stays for services that tells a lot about their background and level of commitment. Especially week after week.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Christians come to Chabad classes?! :eek:
Apparently Chabad has a lot of emails from Christians, like, on a daily basis; so yes, I'm tipping they likely do. There has been a huge surge of interest in Judaism among Christians and Chabad is quite visible, so they go there. I think it also explains people like Mjs and BHIs &c.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Nothing like cutting to the chase ASAP.
It really depends on who is in town, and what people are learning at the time. I'm not even sure if they're doing Chassidus classes anymore. I think they're working on Halacha.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It really depends on who is in town, and what people are learning at the time. I'm not even sure if they're doing Chassidus classes anymore. I think they're working on Halacha.
Halacha is good. :)
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
but if you want to do it seriously, there are guidelines to follow. It can be dangerous, as illustrated by the story in the Talmud:

Whether or not the story is literally true or not, it does illustrate what to me is the principle point illustrated by the following:

Knowledge can be misused. I had a friend when I was in high school who made nitroglycerine to blow up snow drifts so he would not have to shovel snow. He had information but not wisdom (he survived by the way).

There are also situations where people can misinterpret something because they do not have the full context in which to put something. For example, in the East there are people who believe they have attained God consciousness because of an experience they had. But that experience is not that of God consciousness but something else.

Or there can be people who have read something, think they understand what they read and spread a distorted view around confusing and misleading others. And sometimes such people found schools.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
But for non-Jews? That ain't right.

This reminds me of the East as well. There are Islamic sufi schools where students are required to be Muslims. But that's not universally true. The Chisti order which started in India admitted all who were ready no matter their religious background.

To me this is not a matter of one is right but a matter of their work for Divinity. Some work under a religious umbrella for those who practice that religion. Some work under a universal umbrella for those in general who are not dedicated to a religious tradition.

For the later, Hazrat Inayat Khan who brought sufism to the West, had a prayer (salat) which included this:
Allow us to recognize Thee
In all Thy holy names and forms;
As Rama, as Krishna, as Shiva, as Buddha;
Let us know Thee as Abraham, as Solomon, as Zarathustra, as Moses, as Jesus, as Mohammed,
And in many other names and forms,
Known and unknown to the world.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I had a friend when I was in high school who made nitroglycerine to blow up snow drifts so he would not have to shovel snow. He had information but not wisdom (he survived by the way).
:eek::eek::eek:

[ironically, perhaps, just a couple of days ago a friend sarcastically suggested the IDF put nitroglycerine in crates of bullets to cause Bedouin thieves to stop stealing from the army]
Knowledge can be misused. I had a friend when I was in high school who made nitroglycerine to blow up snow drifts so he would not have to shovel snow. He had information but not wisdom (he survived by the way).

There are also situations where people can misinterpret something because they do not have the full context in which to put something. For example, in the East there are people who believe they have attained God consciousness because of an experience they had. But that experience is not that of God consciousness but something else.

Or there can be people who have read something, think they understand what they read and spread a distorted view around confusing and misleading others. And sometimes such people found schools
Yes, I agree. But in Judaism there's an added inherent belief that Torah just isn't for non-Jews. You may be familiar with the Midrash that says that before Hashem gave the Torah to Israel, he first went through all the nations and offered it to them, but each one decided it wasn't right for them. That's one example of the idea. That's also why the Oral Torah wasn't written down for many ages - and Kabbalah is definitely Oral Torah.
To me this is not a matter of one is right but a matter of their work for Divinity. Some work under a religious umbrella for those who practice that religion. Some work under a universal umbrella for those in general who are not dedicated to a religious tradition.

For the later, Hazrat Inayat Khan who brought sufism to the West, had a prayer (salat) which included this:
Allow us to recognize Thee
In all Thy holy names and forms;
As Rama, as Krishna, as Shiva, as Buddha;
Let us know Thee as Abraham, as Solomon, as Zarathustra, as Moses, as Jesus, as Mohammed,
And in many other names and forms,
Known and unknown to the world.
I don't believe in truth in everything. :grimacing:
I don't believe truth can be found in everything. Some paths may be emulating ideas that can be found in other places, but it's best to have looked in those other places than these paths that are more problematic as a whole.
 
Top