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Qabblah according to non-Jews

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
From your understanding, does it make sense?

Some of it. A lot of it feels like a stretch to me, particularly in later works. There's a lot of clunky gematria, mental gymnastics, and forced correlations.

I also don't think the underlying theory of undertaking multiple paths to get to your destination quicker makes sense. I think it makes sense when Qabalah is viewed as its own singular path, but I don't think it makes sense to view it that way given how it's so eclectic at its core.

But, I don't know. It's probably just not my thing.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Since this is quoting the Rebbe and the Chabad website, maybe I can help a little?

I'm guessing if the Rebbe were asked, "Are you a Kabbalist?" He would say "no." So, if you believe that I'm correct in my assumption, that would put any quote by the Rebbe in context. Pretty much anything you see on the Chabad website is Chassidus. Anything chronologically after the Baal Shem Tov and forward, is Chassidus. The exception is when the header on the Chabad website says "Kabbalah Online" in red.

View attachment 40479

The article you linked to had a tiny bit of Lurianic Kabbalah dealing with the concept of a spark and elevating it, but the rest was post BaalShemTov, and that makes it more accurate to call it Chassidus, Chabad Chassidus to be exact.
Clearly my lack of detailed information here is showing - you filled in much that I did not know.

And clearly I'm unclear how much this is relevant to the question I asked:
But where you assert that "True Kabbalists" study in secret for theoretical but not practical purposes, you lose me.
So let me ask it a hopefully better way because anyone else I might cite might not be a True Kabbalist. Where are there "True Kabbalists" today that are not Chabad Chassidus or other descendants?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
But where you assert that "True Kabbalists" study in secret for theoretical but not practical purposes, you lose me.
Right, perhaps I should've clarified more. :oops:

Kabbalah isn't a path for reaching some sort of spiritual "high", which is what they seek to do in Kabbalah centers (of course, they explain it as not the cheap sort of stuff, but it is). Certainly it's not for creating armies of golems or walking on water or whatnot. First and foremost, it's Torat hasod, it's part of the Torah and there are correct ways to study it and incorrect ways to do that, just like any part of the Torah.
People study Kabbalah to understand more about how the universe works and to know God better. Consequently, some of the studies lead to understanding how the human mind, body and soul work, which is one way of knowing God better. To know God - yes, there's a lot of practicality to that. The difference is, what is your goal? Becoming closer to God in a true fashion, or attaining some form of spirituality, which may or may not be a good thing, for your own purposes, which may or may not be good things?

Hope that makes sense.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Some of it. A lot of it feels like a stretch to me, particularly in later works. There's a lot of clunky gematria, mental gymnastics, and forced correlations.

I also don't think the underlying theory of undertaking multiple paths to get to your destination quicker makes sense. I think it makes sense when Qabalah is viewed as its own singular path, but I don't think it makes sense to view it that way given how it's so eclectic at its core.

But, I don't know. It's probably just not my thing.
Thanks!
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Well... I'm not sure I would qualified to determine this ^^. However, Safed is supposed to be a good place to find a teacher.

Safed - Wikipedia
There are even some yeshivas in Tzfat that call themselves Kabbalistic yeshivas. For religious Jews, though (unlike Kabbalah centers, which are even for non-Jews).
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Right, perhaps I should've clarified more. :oops:

Kabbalah isn't a path for reaching some sort of spiritual "high", which is what they seek to do in Kabbalah centers (of course, they explain it as not the cheap sort of stuff, but it is). Certainly it's not for creating armies of golems or walking on water or whatnot. First and foremost, it's Torat hasod, it's part of the Torah and there are correct ways to study it and incorrect ways to do that, just like any part of the Torah.
People study Kabbalah to understand more about how the universe works and to know God better. Consequently, some of the studies lead to understanding how the human mind, body and soul work, which is one way of knowing God better. To know God - yes, there's a lot of practicality to that. The difference is, what is your goal? Becoming closer to God in a true fashion, or attaining some form of spirituality, which may or may not be a good thing, for your own purposes, which may or may not be good things?

Hope that makes sense.
Yes that makes perfect sense. The desire for a "high" is just another desire like any other and is far from the spiritual path.

Also, when we walk along that path some may experience all sorts of things and be distracted by them. That's a diversion and a delay from the journey.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There are even some yeshivas in Tzfat that call themselves Kabbalistic yeshivas. For religious Jews, though (unlike Kabbalah centers, which are even for non-Jews).

Am I wrong that you'd call these people not true Kabbalistic yeshivals then: https://www.tzfat-kabbalah.org/ based on this statement:

The study of Kabbalah is opened for non-Jewish audiences as well, as it is connected with the '7 Principals of Faith', which are taught in the Torah for all humanity. Every year tens of thousands of people from the world over, walk through the gate of our center, aiming to participate in our special spiritual activities.

As background, the reason I'm going on about this is not because I'm looking for a Kabbalah teacher but for another reason. I spent time studying the spiritual teachings of Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity and Islamic Sufism.

After stumbling upon the Facebook group "Lights of Kabbalah", I found myself interested in how spiritual striving manifested in the tradition in which I was born in this life. So I'm poking around, asking questions, reading and so forth to get a better picture of a world I had not given sufficient attention to before this.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Am I wrong that you'd call these people not true Kabbalistic yeshivals then: https://www.tzfat-kabbalah.org/ based on this statement:

The study of Kabbalah is opened for non-Jewish audiences as well, as it is connected with the '7 Principals of Faith', which are taught in the Torah for all humanity. Every year tens of thousands of people from the world over, walk through the gate of our center, aiming to participate in our special spiritual activities.
Definitely not. Open to all people? It's not even open to all Jews! Theoretically, anyone could try entering the world of Sod, but if you want to do it seriously, there are guidelines to follow. It can be dangerous, as illustrated by the story in the Talmud:

"The Sages taught: Four entered the orchard [pardes], i.e., dealt with the loftiest secrets of Torah, and they are as follows: Ben Azzai; and ben Zoma; Aḥer, the other, a name for Elisha ben Avuya; and Rabbi Akiva...The Gemara proceeds to relate what happened to each of them: Ben Azzai glimpsed at the Divine Presence and died...Ben Zoma glimpsed at the Divine Presence and was harmed, i.e., he lost his mind... Aḥer chopped down the shoots of saplings. In other words, he became a heretic. Rabbi Akiva came out safely." (Chagigah 14b)

And they say it's for all people? And they even have a bar mitzvah center? This isn't kids' stuff...

In a word, nuts. o_O
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
After stumbling upon the Facebook group "Lights of Kabbalah", I found myself interested in how spiritual striving manifested in the tradition in which I was born in this life. So I'm poking around, asking questions, reading and so forth to get a better picture of a world I had not given sufficient attention to before this.
Lots of people study Kabbalistic ideas on a surface level, while keeping in mind that the ideas go way further, but they're sticking to the basic understanding. That's better. I still don't think it's alright for non-Jews to learn it, but that's not your case, of course. :)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
"The Sages taught: Four entered the orchard [pardes], i.e., dealt with the loftiest secrets of Torah, and they are as follows: Ben Azzai; and ben Zoma; Aḥer, the other, a name for Elisha ben Avuya; and Rabbi Akiva...The Gemara proceeds to relate what happened to each of them: Ben Azzai glimpsed at the Divine Presence and died...Ben Zoma glimpsed at the Divine Presence and was harmed, i.e., he lost his mind... Aḥer chopped down the shoots of saplings. In other words, he became a heretic. Rabbi Akiva came out safely." (Chagigah 14b)

What a fascinating aggadah!

If I may enquire, do you know the identity of this "Aher" who became a heretic ("min" (מין), I take it, must have been the original word?) following his direct mystical experience of the Divine Presence in pardes (the orchard of Torahic esotericism)? What was the nature of the heresy?

The Torah, if I remember rightly, is described in Beresh-it Rabbah as (in some mysterious sense) "eternal" in the mind of God, inasmuch as it functioned as the blueprint through which HaShem created the universe in the beginning (correct me if wrong, I just remembed reading that).

So, do the loftiest secrets of Torah - its hidden, spiritual meaning - have anything to do with this "pre-existent" dimension to the truths that are inlaid within it?

Interesting, as well, that Akiva is the only one in the tale who saw the merkabah and lived out the rest of his days in peace, because he was reputed (despite his greatness as one of the tannaim) for making some rather egregious errors of judgement wasn't he? (Like mistaking Simon Bar Kokhba for the promised mashiach and interpreting the 'two thrones and old man / younger man' in Daniel in a somewhat heretical way as referring to the Davidic Messiah seated next to God).
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Certainly. He's quite famous. Elisha ben Abuyah - Wikipedia
What was the nature of the heresy?
I think he became a Greco-Roman ideologist, set on turning as many Jews as possible away from Torah. He's known to have continued having Torah-based discussions with his most famous student, Rabbi Meir.

I think I heard there's another piece of Talmud that states that when he died, the other sages prayed for his soul to be taken from hell to heaven.

It's a complicated story.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
So, do the loftiest secrets of Torah - its hidden, spiritual meaning - have anything to do with this "pre-existent" dimension to the truths that are inlaid within it?
...maybe? I'm nothing close to a Kabbalist. I recall a Midrash that says that even in terms of secrets of the universe, there are boundaries to what one can inquire into.

"Rabbi Yonah said in the name of Rabbi Levi: Why was the world created with a "bet"? Just as a bet is closed on all sides and open in the front, so you are not permitted to say, "What is beneath? What is above? What came before? What will come after?" Rather from the day the world was created and after. Bar Kappara said: "You have but to inquire about bygone ages that came before you [ever since God created humanity on earth]" (Deuteronomy 4:32). From the moment God created them you may speculate, however you may not speculate on what was before that." (Beresheet Rabbah 1:10)
for making some rather egregious errors of judgement wasn't he? (Like mistaking Simon Bar Kokhba for the promised mashiach and interpreting the 'two thrones and old man / younger man' in Daniel in a somewhat heretical way as referring to the Davidic Messiah seated next to God).
Mistake? Not at all. In every generation there's an individual with the potential to be the Messiah. Bar Kochva was the individual of his generation. He actually came pretty close (certainly closer than Jesus, if Jesus even had any messianic potential in him - there's no way to really check that...). In Bar Kochva's time, they'd already started minting new Judean coins proclaiming their freedom. That's an accomplishment.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
This is the justification I hear most often.

hyperlink: Chabad.org >>> The Splattered Gem

TLDR? The King chooses to crush the crown jewels ( aka Kaballah ) in order to exhaust all possible remedies for his dying son.

Also considering all of my own transgressions, how can I judge anyone for anything....
I think Chabad would agree with me that the son is the Jewish people. The gem should only be directed at them.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
@Vouthon You're correct however that Rabbi Akivah's life wasn't the easiest. If we take the tradition that he died at 120, then that means that he was already around during the last years of the 2nd Temple and saw the destruction and subsequent chaos. Later, 24,000 of his students died. Some say plague, some say plague is a fancy term meaning they died in the Bar Kochva Revolt. As spiritual guide of Bar Kochva, he was considered a central figure in the Revolt and the Romans eventually caught him and put him jail, until he was brutally murdered by them.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I think Chabad would agree with me that the son is the Jewish people. The gem should only be directed at them.
I agree, but, I asked about this. It could be that the Chabad around here are liberal. But they don't screen people who come to classes. The material gets watered down ( I mean that in the most loving way ) if there is concern. But also the subject matter itself would be completely boring to anyone who isn't interested in being a more observant Orthodox Jew.

That's why I think it's important to look at what it is, exactly, that is being taught.
 
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