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Featured Qabblah according to non-Jews

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Harel13, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    A few days ago I became aware that there's an inherent difference between the term Kabbalah and Qabbalah. Of course, both stem from the Hebrew word קבלה which means "receiving [of tradition]" and use similar terminology, but what I did not know was that the two disciplines take these ideas in two different directions.

    Until now, I was aware that there were two types of Kabbalah: the real stuff, taught according to Jewish traditions, and the fake stuff, seemingly taught according to Jewish traditions, but really is the work of a group of charlatans and thieves (as a rule of thumb in Judaism - if a man outright tells you he's Kabbalist, and even more so, if he demands payment for his services, he's a charlatan. That's not to say he may not have some sort of special abilities - but that ain't Kabbalah). An example for the latter are the Kabbalah centers that people such as Madonna go to - that's fake, new-agey stuff. True Kabbalists study Kabbalah in secret and for the theoretical part, not the practical part.

    However, it seems that there's a third type: Qabbalah (yes, the distinction is made with a different first letter) which appears to have been created by non-Jews (Christians originally, to my understanding) by taking the Jewish terminology in a different direction, as I previously stated. An example for this is that some of Kabbalah is used to heal the person's spirituality from various sins, however the same terms that are used to define the [mostly negative] parts of the person's soul that have muddied it and need to be dealt with and fixed, according to Kabbalah, "Klipot", are considered in Qabbalah (as "Qliphoth") to be quite the opposite: Untold secret fountains of knowledge that one must strive to access. (Qliphoth - Wikipedia)

    What I'm wondering is: How did this happen? How did Qabbalistic teachings deviate so much from Kabbalistic teachings? This is, after all, considered to have originated as a Jewish school of thought, yet the teachings are so vastly un-Jewish (regardless of the terminology). Is this a form of supersessionism, perhaps? But if so, on what is it based, exactly?

    (Note to people who may follow the path of Qabbalah, I'm not attacking the view, but simply attempting to understand where it is coming from).
     
    #1 Harel13, Jun 3, 2020
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  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Alchemy


    it is believed that hermes and melchizedek were possibly contemporaries. it is possible they were the same person having different names like joseph's experienc in egypt. it is also possible that the Qabbalah is likely just another cultural term for alchemy. the israelites would have learned it from the egyptians and their time spent in the furnace.


    so again we're dealing with esoteric vs exoteric. jesus made a point of this when regarding the pharisees and discussing half washed cups.


    there is what is called a language of the birds. it is also called the green language and few other vague terms. its a reference to the mystical language.


    it all revolves around one thing. the

    Emerald Tablet - Wikipedia

    it is mentioned in revelation.


    i have that stone. the hopi know of it too as do many around the world


     
    #2 Fool, Jun 3, 2020
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  3. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Hermes? As in, Greek god Hermes?
    Furnace? What furnace?
    When you say "Qabbalah", are you differentiating between Qabbalah (with a Q) and Kabblah (with a K) or not?
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    having other names based on other cultures. hermetics

    deuteronomy 4:20


    i was introduced to kabbalah by rabbi david cooper; though only through his audio teachings.


    Books & CD's — Rabbi David Cooper


    I had to pay for the series. i guess you can decide.


    but ezekiel mentions the stone twice with the same idea in two verses in two different chapters.


    a child is born unto us and like enoch snatched away to heaven, by god? has it been taken, is it already that far gone?
     
  5. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    No, I mean who is this Hermes that you're referring to and what does he have to do with alchemy?
    I see nothing about a furnace here.
    So you're not differentiating between Kabbalah and Qabbalah. The thread's subject is about this point of diversity; where did it come from? How did it happen? I'm not asking for the origins of Kabbalah, I'm asking for the origins of Qabbalah.
     
  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    there is no exact language except in mathematics


    iron crucible if you prefer is still a way of smelting. smelting is a way of removing impurities to get the purity of something. in this case mettle
     
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  7. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I misread the verse, you're correct.
    Huh? What does this have to do with the subject?
     
  8. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    don't get hung up on where it's coming from. when the student is ready, the human teacher doesn't matter. god moves in mysterious ways. if the student will allow, god will take possession. jeremiah 17:10, jonah 2:2, psalm 18


    Jade Books in Heaven - Wikipedia



    its more about what are you wanting? to have power, to increase the ego? to lord over other's as self?


    or simply as a balm to alleviate suffering, succor, justice?


    would self rather be king? or to love and be loved by someone?











    allahu akbar
     
  9. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    No, not at all. I'm not interested in studying Kabbalah or Qabbalah. I highly recommend you re-read my OP to know where I'm coming from:
     
  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    lol, sorry i didn't mean you specifically. I meant you in general. i should have used self, or person; which is kind of neutral and allows the self to see observe the ego less qualitatively, with less judgement.


    best wishes in your journey.


    the story of linchi explains in a flash of insight.




    Upon presenting himself to Ta-yu and explaining his story, Ta-yu said, "Huang-po treated you with great compassion. He only wanted to dispel your distress." Suddenly Lin-chi understood and replied, "So Huang-po's doctrine is very simple; there's nothing to it at all!"

    "You scamp!" Ta-yu yelled, grabbing Lin-chi. "You complained that Huang-po's teaching was incomprehensible. Now you say there's nothing to it. What have you realized. Speak quickly!"

    Lin-chi responded by poking Ta-yu's ribs, and Ta-yu said, "Your teacher is Huang-po. You do not concern me." Lin-chi returned at once to Huang-po's monastery and presented himself to his teacher.
     
    #10 Fool, Jun 3, 2020
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  11. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    I finally found this thread - it had slipped off the new thread list and I'm on the left coast.

    I don't understand the OP in part.

    The part I do understand is that there are fakes - such are present in all religions and spiritual paths. We see such in Christianity every day. And in the East There are many hypocritical saints with long matted hair and their bodies besmeared with ashes. Tukaram says: "Let their dead conscience be burnt; it is no sin to thrash them!"

    But where you assert that "True Kabbalists" study in secret for theoretical but not practical purposes, you lose me. I read quotes like these which are immensely practical, involve "mitzvot" and Tikkun Olam

    In the holy Zohar it is written
    that through the study
    of the secret wisdom,
    the final liberation will come with compassion.
    Not with judgment alone.

    Now the wisdom is no longer secret.

    Sages and masters have found ways
    to make it accessible to all.
    Those who learn it and spread it,
    they are bringing divine compassion
    and redemption to the world.


    Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

    and:

    What Is Tikkun Olam? - What does Tikkun Olam mean, who came up with it, and how do I do it?
     
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  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, certainly. Just trying to understand the history of this particular sect. Thought maybe some of the folks over at the Magic DIR might know something.
     
  13. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Since this is quoting the Rebbe and the Chabad website, maybe I can help a little?

    I'm guessing if the Rebbe were asked, "Are you a Kabbalist?" He would say "no." So, if you believe that I'm correct in my assumption, that would put any quote by the Rebbe in context. Pretty much anything you see on the Chabad website is Chassidus. Anything chronologically after the Baal Shem Tov and forward, is Chassidus. The exception is when the header on the Chabad website says "Kabbalah Online" in red.

    upload_2020-6-3_10-56-45.png

    The article you linked to had a tiny bit of Lurianic Kabbalah dealing with the concept of a spark and elevating it, but the rest was post BaalShemTov, and that makes it more accurate to call it Chassidus, Chabad Chassidus to be exact.
     
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  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @February-Saturday , can you help with this? We're looking for the origins of Qabbalah spelled with a 'Q' and whether or not these origins at some point intersected or had common origins with Jewish Mysticism aka Kabbalah spelled with a "K" in English.

    Theories are welcome; this particular thread is located in a non-debate forum. No one will demand proof or evidence. If you have time and are so inclined I would appreciate your input on this.

    Thank you,
     
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  15. February-Saturday

    February-Saturday Devil Worshiper

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    Hermetic Qabalah came out of Christian Cabala.

    What you're seeing is a distortion from Jews to esoteric Christians, from esoteric Christians to the Golden Dawn system, from the Golden Dawn system to Crowley, from Crowley to the A.'.'A.'. and OTO, and from these groups into several splinter factions that disagree on what Crowley was even talking about.

    It's a game of telephone that's wrought with a ton of misappropriation. Overall, Qabalah has very little to do with Judaism, and a lot more to do with occultists trying to create the supernatural equivalent of a Theory of Everything. Added to this, an emphasis was placed on personal revelation. So you have the telephone game combined with gluing in extra pieces (astrology, alchemy, Enochian magic, grimoric tradition, etc.) and the entire system being rewritten and remade several times until it made sense, it's no wonder that things came out the other end almost completely different.

    That said, viewing the Qliphoth as a "fountain of knowledge" is really a watered-down understanding of Satanic Qabalah. In this context, the Qliphoth has a lot less to do with Judaism and a lot more to do with Gnostic Alchemy and demonology. A lot of it uses Thelema for the names of the Qliphoth themselves and some of the correspondences to demonology.

    In groups like the Temple of the Black Light, the Qliphoth was chosen specifically to oppose Yaldabaoth who is often equated in Gnosticism with the Jewish God, so it's an intentionally heretical take on Kabbalah. Nonetheless, they don't view their Qliphoth as being the same as the Qliphoth described in Judaism, but getting into that would require a much more complicated explanation of Satanic esotericism; particularly the Inverted Chaoskampf and the concept of currents.
     
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  16. February-Saturday

    February-Saturday Devil Worshiper

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    Qabalah with a "Q" came from Rosicrucianism, and its spelling has significance in Enochian gematria. It came out of Cabala, which was an attempt to Christianize Kabbalah. As far as I'm aware, at least; it's not my main field of study.

    Edit: To clarify, Qabalah is the system that came from merging Cabala with tarot cards, astrology, gematria, numerology, alchemy, Hermeticism, grimoiric tradition, and a variety of other strains in Christian occultism. Christian Cabala is a lot closer to Kabbalah, but some people have argued that it was likely based on a lot of misunderstandings of Kabbalah from the outset. So it sort of has some vague relationship with Kabbalah, but it's really a Rosicrucian system.
     
    #16 February-Saturday, Jun 3, 2020
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  17. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Fascinating!
    There are tons of terms here that I have no idea what they mean...:sweatsmile:

    Are you by any chance willing to give short definitions of the following: Golden Dawn system, AA, OTO, Enochian magic, Satanic Qabalah, Gnostic Alchemy, Chaoskampf?
     
  18. February-Saturday

    February-Saturday Devil Worshiper

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    Oh, sure thing, my bad.

    The Golden Dawn system refers to the beliefs and practices of The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which was an order that was formed out of the earlier Rosicrucian movement and is pretty much responsible for most of modern Western occultism. Crowley rose to a high rank in the order and then left it to sell its secrets and form Thelema.

    The A.'.A.'. is both a mystical concept, and an actual organization founded by Crowley as a way to initiate people into Thelema.

    The OTO is the Ordo Templi Orientis, which was a different secret order that Crowley joined and eventually rose to the top of. The OTO eventually became highly influenced by Thelema due to his presence.

    Enochian magic is a system of magic developed by John Dee and Edward Kelley.

    Satanic Qabalah is the technical (but infrequently used) name for the way Satanists approach the Qliphoth.

    Gnostic Alchemy is a mystical traditional that blends Gnosticism and Hermeticism. It uses alchemical rituals and methods with Gnostic symbolism to reach Gnostic goals. It's one of the few forms of Gnosticism that wasn't really Christian.

    The Chaoskampf is the name for a recurring trope of Order vanquishing Chaos seen in comparative religion. In most of esoteric Satanism, it's inverted and Chaos vanquishes Order. It seems like a simple palette swap, but it actually tends to have pretty wide-reaching implications.
     
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  19. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, very interesting stuff.
     
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  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    From your understanding, does it make sense?
     
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