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Featured Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Skwim, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    I am referring to the god of the Christian Bible, which I consider to be a fictional character.

    The ambiguity and internal contradictions I was referring to are in the scripture. It's expected that the various denominations and churches would be interpreting and presenting it differently.

    “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” According to Genesis chapter 3, Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and didn’t die on that day.

    Genesis 35:10 says, “thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name” Genesis 46:2 says, “God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.”

    Can you move mountains with faith? Did Jesus return in the lifetimes of those who were promised he would?

    There was no global flood, the creation accounts in Genesis are both incorrect, and there was no Egyptian captivity or Exodus. That's three.

    I understand that a believer often sees reality through the lens of a faith-based confirmation bias that makes these things invisible to him or her, so I don't expect such a person to agree with anything that contradicts what he or she has chosen to believe. But these things are plainly visible to the skeptic, who has no need to rectify the errors..
    .
     
  2. John53

    John53 Well-Known Member

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    Sure it's perfectly reasonable to address the comments but that's not what you did. You launched a personal attack on him which is what I objected too.

    I asked for evidence of a claim. Sheez

    Understandable, I am very likeable (which can be something of a curse for a grumpy old man) and I aim to entertain so job done.

    So personal anecdotes. You have no evidence "they get high customer feedbacks for a greater customer base" in general.

    No idea of your point. Only one of my neighbours is a tradesman, the rest of us are retired.

    Maybe, who knows but I doubt if any tradespeople I have had contact with could care less about my opinion, they only care that I pay.

    You seem over sensitive. I would have thought that someone so quick to use the insult would be a little thicker skinned.

    You must have read a different OP to me or just being a little over dramatic?

    Aww diddums, you are very delicate aren't you. Anyway you failed to mention the claim you made was based on your experience until I asked. Mind reading isn't a skill I possess.

    That will spare you the embarrassment of having to back down from the "thousands die from blood transfusions in Britain" claim lol
     
    #242 John53, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  3. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    TLDR.......
    Now...... you tell us that you left school at 15yrs, and eventually drove trains until retirement.

    And you didn't stand up and tell the OP that he was clean out of order over his comments about so many Jehovah Witnesses not reaching higher academia......!

    You were the one person who could have told the OP that leaving school early and earning a good living in Trades was perfectly decent and reasonable, and that if it did not disqualify you from your opinions about evolution/creation then why should it disqualify hard working decent Jehovah Witnesses.

    You copped out, fellah. You copped out on the folks who leave school for trades.

    And around where I live the JWs have a very high reputation for good work and honesty, and if you needed proof of that then it's 'on yer bike' for you, matey.
     
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  4. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Do you have the prophetic text?
    Is it the one prophesying future peace during Christ millennium reign, or is it the peace he promised his followers, they would enjoy - which they currently enjoy today?
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    The ones that fail to do his will.
    Jesus said at Matthew 7:21-23 21, 21 Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

    What is the will of the father?
    The apostle John said at 1 John 2:15-17,15Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life - does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.
    Apostle Paul - 1 Timothy 2:3, 4 3This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

    Jesus himself said:
    Matthew 28:18-20 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

    Those carrying out the will of the Father, are actually fulfilling one of his prophecies.
    Matthew 24:14And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    This work is the work that Jesus started here on earth, and that will continue right down to the end.
    Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-12;
    2 Timothy 4:2-5 2Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

    Doing God's will primarily involves obeying Jesus' command to preach the good news of God's kingdom, as a witness to all nations - following Jesus' example of preaching from door to door in every village and town - throughout every land. Matthew 22:37-40
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Yet you haven't explained Why.
    How did you arrive at the assumption that there must be blind / unguided 'natural' processes?


    So you say, go with what you have, even if you have conflicting evidence. Just believe your forensic evidence must be right... because...?


    The ones I pointed out, plus the others I haven't mentioned.


    When you said expert on religion, of course you didn't account for the fact that religion doesn't carry one name or group. So I think you made a mistake, but no worries, we can narrow it down.


    Please explain why you assert that it is logically impossible for the Christian God to be.
    Although I think you put this argument forward before, and it was refuted, but we can do it again.
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Do you call the dissension among all the different Christ churches "peace"? I don't.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The founder of Christianity, and those he taught foretold that after their time, Christianity would be corrupted in much the same way as Judaism was....and for the same reasons. Replacing God's word with man made traditions. One of the biggest deviations was to make Jesus into God. They introduced a three headed god that was foreign to everything he taught. Jesus is not God and never was....he worshipped his God and so should we.
    Christendom worships the wrong god.....breaking the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

    Probably....he's the champion of the underdog because he is not one to run with the mob and judge on hearsay like most folks are prone to do....I mean, look what they did to Jesus. How many stood up for him?

    It was also foretold that our understanding would increase as time went on. (Proverbs 4:18; John 16:12 ) Hoping for one event to take place because it would rid the world of wickedness was not something evil....suggesting that a certain year may bring relief was the hope that kept burning in us as we watched wickedness reach a level we never thought possible.

    As we watch the world in more turmoil than ever before, our hope is reinforced as prophesy continues to be fulfilled. Time means nothing to a God who can take all the time he needs to accomplish his purpose in connection with his creation. Jesus told us to "keep on the watch" and that is what we have done. (Matthew 24:42-44)

    Jesus himself taught things that were not clearly discernible at the time, but we who are living at the time of the end, see that it must conclude soon, as there is only one "king" left to rule in Bible prophesy.....the "eighth king that springs from the seven" (Revelation 17:10-11) IOW there will be a single world rulership that will have the backing of all the nations. (All other forms of government have failed) We see this 'one world government' taking control with the promise of "peace and security"......but it will be totalitarian in its structure and enforcement. Have you not wondered why today's police are wearing combat gear? They are all trained and ready for the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen....

    Don't believe it? That is your prerogative.
     
    #248 Deeje, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Blood transfusions kill more people than they save. It's a fact. If doctors in this field of medicine are sounding warnings about the high incidence of "morbidity" and "mortality" related to the use of blood in medicine, then doctors are the ones acknowledging the seriousness of the problem....not us.

    This is on the Australian Govt website......

    For Media | National Blood Authority
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    What is on the Australian Govt website, your link or your crazy statement?

    .



    .
     
  11. John53

    John53 Well-Known Member

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    Lol... 10 lines too much for you? (I had to google TLDR)

    Yes

    If you took a minute or maybe 2 to read what I wrote before I wouldn't have to repeat that I didn't see anything wrong with the OP. He posted some statistics and gave a few comments on them.

    Oh my, the responsibility weighs heavy, I'm the one person! He didn't say leaving school early and getting a trade wasn't decent and reasonable so why on earth would I attack him for something he didn't say!

    Lol. A lot of histrionics to try and cover your poor behaviour.

    You failed to include "where I live" in your original claim (as I pointed out before <sigh>). If you had your delicate feelings would not have been damaged.

    SIR YES SIR! Pedalling off on my bike will save you the embarrassment of having to back down about your claim "that thousands die from blood transfusions in Britain".
     
  12. John53

    John53 Well-Known Member

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    The first sentence... "Blood still saving lives but there are risks".

    Just as there are risks with any medical procedure no matter how minor.
     
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  13. John53

    John53 Well-Known Member

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    Not what I asked. I asked which Christian Churches do not worship the God that Jesus worshipped.

    It's not that hard a question.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hmmm....which churches don't believe in the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire?.....and don't celebrate Christmas and Easter as their main money spinners?.....what does the term "Christendom" mean? It encompasses all of those "Christian" churches that were spawned by the errant teachings of Roman Catholicism. That is the 'mother' church responsible for what her 'daughters' were taught to believe. How many "churches" actually reject all of those teachings and celebrations? None of these originated from the Bible, which means that they came from somewhere else.......you don't have to look far to see that all of those things were adopted from non-Christian religions, which is something God strictly forbade his people to do. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    Did you watch the video? Apparently not.

    Look up the words "morbidity" and "mortality" in a dictionary......are these words something you want attached to ANY medical procedure that is offered to you? It is stated on the video by the doctors themselves that no other medical procedure carries a greater risk for bad outcomes and death than blood transfusions do. There are many alternatives offered today which makes transfusions unnecessary. Plasma volume expanders do the job whilst the body recovers its red cells with no risks at all. How do we know this is true? Because that is our story and doctors have seen first hand that bloodless medicine leads to better outcomes, shorter recovery time, and without the high cost of administering blood along with its unnecessary risk factors.

    This from https://www.conformis.com/surgeon-resource-center/resource/the-true-cost-of-a-blood-transfusion/

    "Incidence of blood transfusions in knee replacement surgery has both direct and indirect costs to the hospital. A recent large-scale analysis of over 4 million TKA cases from 2000-20091 identified numerous negative results in terms of cost and outcomes for patients, including:

    • The overall blood transfusion rate for TKA cases was 12.1%, with the rate increasing about 5% between 2000 and 2009
    • Transfused patients had a higher incidence of co-morbidities, including deficiency anemia, renal failure, chronic blood loss, and coagulopathy
    • Transfused patients had a 0.68 days longer length of stay
    • Hospital admission costs increased by $2,237 for transfused patients
    • The risk of additional post-operative complications, including infection, also increased in transfused patients
    This study very clearly demonstrated both negative patient outcomes as well as financial burden when blood transfusions are involved in a procedure."

    The title of the video is misleading because the content says exactly the opposite. If you had watched the video you would have known that.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You didn't watch the video either...did you? Its the doctors warning about the dangers of blood transfusions.....not us. Up to you if you want blood.....go for it, but please don't day you weren't warned. OK?
     
  16. John53

    John53 Well-Known Member

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    So every Christian denomination, they were all spawned by Roman Catholicism.

    Can't watch videos on my tablet and not near the computer so I read the article. Like all medical procedures there are risks but as they say, blood transfusions, still saving lives. I'll watch the video tonight if there's nothing else I need to do.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The God of the Christian Bible is not the god of Christendom. Jesus himself worshipped his God whose name is YHWH. (Yahweh/ Jehovah) See Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 42:8.
    Christendom worships a three headed god who can apparently be in three places at once....and talks to himself. I don't worship that god. :confused:

    So no specific ones that you can think of? You must know of some or else you would not have mentioned it....?

    This is where a knowledge of the whole Bible comes in handy. You see it is one book with one author so it answers its own questions if you just read it.

    2 Peter 3:8 says..."However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."

    Psalm 90:4......."For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,
    Just as a watch during the night."


    Genesis 2:16-17..."Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.

    So a "day" to God is like a thousand years to us.....you will see in Genesis that no human lived longer than a thousand years....so, all died within God's counting of a "day".
    Like the creative "days" were not 24 hour periods but covered perhaps millions of years for each "day".

    This one is grasping at straws really.....if I changed your name to something you did not yet recognize, would you more readily answer to your new name, or your old one? The change in name was an acknowledgment that Jacob had "contended" with God by grappling with an angel all night and won. The name Israel means "Contender with God".
    Since Jacobs offspring were called "the children of Israel", then the name change stood the test of time.

    Figuratively speaking....yes! My faith has moved mountains many times in my life. Monumental 'mountain-like' obstacles were taken out of the way, just by relying on God for the wisdom to make the right decisions. Help also came from sources I did not expect. Too many to be coincidental.

    There is a thread on evidence for the global flood on RF. Did you read any of it?

    The creation accounts stand up to scrutiny if you have an understanding of the original language.

    And Egypt was notorious for not recording their defeats...only their victories.

    "....all ancient histories were written as propaganda. This is something upon which historians and archaeologists agree. The function of ancient histories was to glorify contemporary powers, and therefore they would not record their own defeats. After all, the scribes were their employees. You see this, for example, in the following type of historical chain of events. You read in the hieroglyphs that Pharaoh X raised a great army and conquered a number of provinces, and his son Pharaoh X Jr. raised even a larger army and conquered more provinces. Then, there is a hundred year gap in the history. What happened during that 100 years? For that you have to go to the Babylonian records. That is when the Babylonians were kicking the stuffing out of the Egyptians. The Egyptians don't record that because that doesn't glorify their empire. They just leave it out."

    5: Archeology by Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb

    You don't seem to realize that the same may be said of atheists. You have your own confirmation bias. Your faith is in science....my faith is in the Creator of science.

    Again, the same applies to us.....we see the flaws in your arguments just as clearly as you see the flaws in ours......we choose which team we barrack for.....so may the best team win. :)

    The prize is everlasting life in the most perfect surroundings.....what have you got to look forward to?
     
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  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    If their God is the trinity, they don't worship the God Jesus worshipped....Jesus didn't ever include himself, did he? John 20:17; John 4:23-24; John 17:3; cf. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since they all subscribe to Catholic doctrine on those specific issues....yes. She is the mother of many daughters....some of which don't speak to her. But the acorn never falls far from the tree.

    The video is on the Australian Government website.....it's not very long, and very informative. I hope you get a chance to watch it. Especially take note of the cytoscan and see what happens when blood is transfused into a patient who also received saline solution as a volume expander. You will see what happens when the body receives foreign material.....as compared to simple salt solution that is comparable to ordinary sea water.
     
    #259 Deeje, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  20. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Sorry. I'm afraid that is quite different to what I am saying.
    I said, Jesus' followers. In other words, those who are following Christ's example and teachings. Those he recognizes as belonging to him - his sheep - his followers.

    He said...
    14I am the fine shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my life in behalf of the sheep. John 10:7-15
    John 10:27
    My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

    Those that are not followers of Christ, are not recognized by him as such, but are recognized for what they truly are - wolves in sheep's covering - lawless ones.
    Matthew 7:15-27 15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men. 21“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ 24“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

    So we can actually see that all the diverse religious groups claiming to belong to Christ, but yet not following his teachings and example, are actually be rejected by Christ because he does not recognize them as his sheep - his followers.
    Do you recognize them though?
    For example, according to what Jesus said at John 15:17-21 can you identify those claiming to be Christian that disqualify themselves?
     
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