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Putting God's Design In Perspective

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
.

Up until relatively recently people considered our solar system and the stars above (whatever they were) to be thee center of god's creation. Eventually some of the dots in the sky were recognized to be planets that revolved around our earth, as did the Sun, all of which made up our solar system. This was corrected when it was confirmed that the Earth and these other planets went around the Sun. Some time later it was discovered that the stars were just like our sun: our Sun was star. With better equipment, astronomers then found that some of the other "stars" were actually great "clouds" of light, which they called nebulae. Further investigation revealed that these nebulae were actually tremendous accumulations of stars, which they termed galaxies. (The term "nebula" has since been changed to denote great clouds of interstellar dust and other ionized gasses.) And there are trillions of these galaxies. So our "universe" went from being a solar system, to include the vast reaches of space, But the structure of our universe doesn't end there. The gravity between galaxies has drawn them into enormous clumps, which in turn form galaxy superclusters---our Milky Way galaxy is part of the Laniakea supercluster. Moreover, the distances between all these elements of the universe are enormous, usually denoted in light years; the distance light travels in one year. The closest spiral galaxy to us is the Andromeda Galaxy (M31), which is two million light years away.

To give you an idea of how immense the universe is,

"Right now, the observable universe is thought to consist of roughly:

10 million superclusters
25 billion galaxy groups
350 billion large galaxies
7 trillion dwarf galaxies
30 billion trillion (3×10^22) stars, with almost 30 stars going supernova every second"
source

Within the Milky Way galaxy our star is 1 among 100-400 billion other stars.

latest

And:

space-perspective-1200x600.jpg


So, the question is, "Why"? Why did god bother with it all? While the existence of our plant and the life on it depend on the configuration of our solar system, they don't depend on the existence of neighboring stars, the Milky Way, other galaxies, galaxy superclusters or any other far reaching structures of the universe.

Of course, I don't expect any answer to be more than speculation, but I am looking to see how one squares the enormity of the universe, both in size and content, with the contention that it was all designed by god.

.

Hi Skyrim. (Lol)

At first those who dwelled in different lands thought that we fell off the world if we travelled beyond the horizon and that the world was flat. But after time we found that we lived on a globe with other land masses and that other races and tribes existed in other lands.

In the as of yet completely ‘unexplored’ universe we see the same thing but on a massive scale. I don’t believe that the entire creation was put in place just for us. We are told that we are not alone by our Founder, Baha’u’llah Who states...

Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute. – Baha’u’llah,

And His Son Abdul-Baha explained further...

The earth has its inhabitants, the water and the air contain many living beings… then how is it possible to conceive that these stupendous stellar bodies are not inhabited? Verily, they are peopled, but let it be known that the dwellers accord with the elements of their respective spheres. These living beings do not have states of consciousness like unto those who live on the surface of this globe: the power of adaptation and environment molds their bodies and states of consciousness, just as our bodies and minds are suited to our planet. – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, pp. 114-115
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
God would be so perfect and allmighty as to not create toxic waste, and vast wastelands of galaxies, and stars going supernova, no. God could have created something Spiritually ideal for life. Like make non living spirit material or something.

If anything God is bound by the limits of our existence and makes creatures that are lowly, savage, and bizarre. The universe is morally indifferent. God could show some mercy to all those edible creatures out there and make a benevolent universe thats self sustaining for life. Life without the need for animal slaughter would be a good idea.

Methinks the universe is spiritual poverty, and a desperate outpost for life. Life is fringe stuff here. Maybe just maybe our creators are vagabonds. Either that or life emerged in the most haphazard of ways. I dont think existence cares for life one way or another. The Great Spirit of existence is a beggar, and a struggler for abode.
 

youknowme

Whatever you want me to be.
Particles or sub-particles don't exist at any particular point in space until they are consciously observed. The particles' wave function collapses into a particle with defined attributes only if somebody were consciously observing this. Our minds, unlike anything else, has the power to collapse the wave function. Why do you think this happens?

OK, but my point is that nothing is made out of probability. Probability is a measurement of long term frequency, it is not a substance in which things can be made out of it.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Hi Skyrim. (Lol)

At first those who dwelled in different lands thought that we fell off the world if we travelled beyond the horizon and that the world was flat. But after time we found that we lived on a globe with other land masses and that other races and tribes existed in other lands.

In the as of yet completely ‘unexplored’ universe we see the same thing but on a massive scale. I don’t believe that the entire creation was put in place just for us. We are told that we are not alone by our Founder, Baha’u’llah Who states...

Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute. – Baha’u’llah,

And His Son Abdul-Baha explained further...

The earth has its inhabitants, the water and the air contain many living beings… then how is it possible to conceive that these stupendous stellar bodies are not inhabited? Verily, they are peopled, but let it be known that the dwellers accord with the elements of their respective spheres. These living beings do not have states of consciousness like unto those who live on the surface of this globe: the power of adaptation and environment molds their bodies and states of consciousness, just as our bodies and minds are suited to our planet. – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, pp. 114-115


"In the matrix of the mother the unborn child was deprived and unconscious of the world of material existence, but after its birth it beheld the wonders and beauties of a new realm of life and being. In the world of the matrix it was utterly ignorant and unable to conceive of these new conditions, but after its transformation it discovers the radiant sun, trees, flowers and an infinite range of blessings and bounties awaiting it."

(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 288-289)
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
OK, but my point is that nothing is made out of probability. Probability is a measurement of long term frequency, it is not a substance in which things can be made out of it.

Ok...and my point is that everything lacks substance until it is consciously observed. Why do you think everything is only substantive upon observation?

 
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youknowme

Whatever you want me to be.
Ok...and my point is that everything lacks substance until it is consciously observed. Why do you think everything is only substantive upon observation?

Not if you are claiming it is "made" out a "probability wave" as in order to have such frequency you'd need some underlying process going on beyond the observed.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
.

Up until relatively recently people considered our solar system and the stars above (whatever they were) to be thee center of god's creation. Eventually some of the dots in the sky were recognized to be planets that revolved around our earth, as did the Sun, all of which made up our solar system. This was corrected when it was confirmed that the Earth and these other planets went around the Sun. Some time later it was discovered that the stars were just like our sun: our Sun was star. With better equipment, astronomers then found that some of the other "stars" were actually great "clouds" of light, which they called nebulae. Further investigation revealed that these nebulae were actually tremendous accumulations of stars, which they termed galaxies. (The term "nebula" has since been changed to denote great clouds of interstellar dust and other ionized gasses.) And there are trillions of these galaxies. So our "universe" went from being a solar system, to include the vast reaches of space, But the structure of our universe doesn't end there. The gravity between galaxies has drawn them into enormous clumps, which in turn form galaxy superclusters---our Milky Way galaxy is part of the Laniakea supercluster. Moreover, the distances between all these elements of the universe are enormous, usually denoted in light years; the distance light travels in one year. The closest spiral galaxy to us is the Andromeda Galaxy (M31), which is two million light years away.

To give you an idea of how immense the universe is,

"Right now, the observable universe is thought to consist of roughly:

10 million superclusters
25 billion galaxy groups
350 billion large galaxies
7 trillion dwarf galaxies
30 billion trillion (3×10^22) stars, with almost 30 stars going supernova every second"
source

Within the Milky Way galaxy our star is 1 among 100-400 billion other stars.

latest

And:

space-perspective-1200x600.jpg


So, the question is, "Why"? Why did god bother with it all? While the existence of our plant and the life on it depend on the configuration of our solar system, they don't depend on the existence of neighboring stars, the Milky Way, other galaxies, galaxy superclusters or any other far reaching structures of the universe.

Of course, I don't expect any answer to be more than speculation, but I am looking to see how one squares the enormity of the universe, both in size and content, with the contention that it was all designed by god.
.
It's one of those excellent questions like, since God didn't create microorganisms, how did Eve digest the apple?

Stipulated it's God's work the OP's question opens up these possibilities:

1. God is gobsmackingly inefficient.

2. God wasn't trying to create Man; [he] wanted to be remembered as the god who created the most stars.

3. Everything is exactly as the bible says. God created the universe with the flat earth immovably fixed in the middle, and the heavenly bodies going round it stuck on the hard dome of the sky. Some time after the fall of the Roman Empire the earth quietly unflattened, bulked up and became a sphere. Continuing the process into the second millennium the dome of the sky was quietly dismantled, the heavenly bodies set free and the sun and stars redistributed, necessarily getting bigger and brighter and placed so they looked exactly the same as they moved away from the earth and then the solar system and then the galaxy.

And there are so many stars because no one ever bothered to dust the sky, so every speck was ...
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
God would be so perfect and allmighty as to not create toxic waste, and vast wastelands of galaxies, and stars going supernova, no. God could have created something Spiritually ideal for life. Like make non living spirit material or something.

If anything God is bound by the limits of our existence and makes creatures that are lowly, savage, and bizarre. The universe is morally indifferent. God could show some mercy to all those edible creatures out there and make a benevolent universe thats self sustaining for life. Life without the need for animal slaughter would be a good idea.

Methinks the universe is spiritual poverty, and a desperate outpost for life. Life is fringe stuff here. Maybe just maybe our creators are vagabonds. Either that or life emerged in the most haphazard of ways. I dont think existence cares for life one way or another. The Great Spirit of existence is a beggar, and a struggler for abode.

I am sad for you.
 

youknowme

Whatever you want me to be.
Ok...and my point is that everything lacks substance until it is consciously observed. Why do you think everything is only substantive upon observation?

The very fact that they have an equation to measure the probability shows that it has some degree of predictability, this would not be the case if things only existed when observed consciously. It means there is a pattern going on that we can't fully see.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
12 o clock?
Oh. You are a soldier for Christ, nor this world. Good. ;)
!2 o'clock means directly above. The post above mine looked like nothing more than a distraction.
I don't expect any straight answers to our questions.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
The very fact that they have an equation to measure the probability shows that it has some degree of predictability, this would not be the case if things only existed when observed consciously. It means there is a pattern going on that we can't fully see.

I suspect that rather than every quantum interaction being simulated, only interaction between us conscious minds and what we observe gets simulated in order to save computational resources of our simulators who are simulating our universe. Hence, the reason why the wave function collapses upon observation.

 
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Oh. You are a soldier for Christ, nor this world. Good. ;)
!2 o'clock means directly above. The post above mine looked like nothing more than a distraction.
I don't expect any straight answers to our questions.

Thats right....the fine tuning, intelligent design is practically unbeatable for the hyper skeptics.

There gonna love my statement too, lol :cool:

We gotta get these hyper skeptics, there runnin all over the place. They gonna poison the worlds minds. :D
 
Last edited:

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
.

Up until relatively recently people considered our solar system and the stars above (whatever they were) to be thee center of god's creation. Eventually some of the dots in the sky were recognized to be planets that revolved around our earth, as did the Sun, all of which made up our solar system. This was corrected when it was confirmed that the Earth and these other planets went around the Sun. Some time later it was discovered that the stars were just like our sun: our Sun was star. With better equipment, astronomers then found that some of the other "stars" were actually great "clouds" of light, which they called nebulae. Further investigation revealed that these nebulae were actually tremendous accumulations of stars, which they termed galaxies. (The term "nebula" has since been changed to denote great clouds of interstellar dust and other ionized gasses.) And there are trillions of these galaxies. So our "universe" went from being a solar system, to include the vast reaches of space, But the structure of our universe doesn't end there. The gravity between galaxies has drawn them into enormous clumps, which in turn form galaxy superclusters---our Milky Way galaxy is part of the Laniakea supercluster. Moreover, the distances between all these elements of the universe are enormous, usually denoted in light years; the distance light travels in one year. The closest spiral galaxy to us is the Andromeda Galaxy (M31), which is two million light years away.

To give you an idea of how immense the universe is,

"Right now, the observable universe is thought to consist of roughly:

10 million superclusters
25 billion galaxy groups
350 billion large galaxies
7 trillion dwarf galaxies
30 billion trillion (3×10^22) stars, with almost 30 stars going supernova every second"
source

Within the Milky Way galaxy our star is 1 among 100-400 billion other stars.

latest

And:

space-perspective-1200x600.jpg


So, the question is, "Why"? Why did god bother with it all? While the existence of our plant and the life on it depend on the configuration of our solar system, they don't depend on the existence of neighboring stars, the Milky Way, other galaxies, galaxy superclusters or any other far reaching structures of the universe.

Of course, I don't expect any answer to be more than speculation, but I am looking to see how one squares the enormity of the universe, both in size and content, with the contention that it was all designed by god.

.
I think God gave us brains to use them, and I really appreciate this thoughtful post. My answer would be that only a very powerful God would care about all this, and perhaps there is life repeated frequently throughout the Universe. The Drake Equation even tells is there should be.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I suspect that rather than every quantum interaction being simulated, only interaction between us conscious minds and what we observe gets simulated in order to save computational resources of our simulators who are simulating our universe. Hence, the reason why the wave function collapses upon observation.
So in your view, we're simply elements in some other race's Tron game?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I think your post assumes 2 things.

1, that the entire universe suppose to be designed for us. Its like a fish saying 'because i cant live on land, that means land is not designed and therefore since land is not designed, neither is the ocean.
Strange conclusion, but hardly. I don't believe it was designed at all.

2, you also assume that the bigger regions of the universe have no effect on the smaller regions. What if all the galaxies are interconnected and what if theres a bigger sphere above it?
Don't know how you came up with this, but I await any evidence one way of the other.

.

.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
So in your view, we're simply elements in some other race's Tron game?

I believe that's a possibility, but I think we are more likely valued for educational purposes in an ancestral simulation done by our post-human futuristic descendants.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Until recently?
Nope. Until "relatively recently."

Lets see it was recorded in like 450bc that the stars are suns so who knows but that was probably understood 10,000 years ago at least off and on who knows exactly the data is lost.
The first person to come up with the idea that stars and the Sun are the same thing, just at different distances, was Anaxagoras, in about 450 B.C. Later, Aristarchus, around 220 B.C., thought similarly. In 1600 A.D., Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for heresy, for asserting that the Sun is a star,
source

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