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Featured Punishment Before the Temple Fell

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Samantha Rinne, Sep 9, 2019.

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  1. It did not happen, I reject my own Talmud

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  2. The priests colluded with Rome

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  3. They rejected or dishonored God's commands and failed to atone

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  4. They failed to make reforms God told them through prophets (not including Jesus)

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  5. They failed to make reforms God told them through Jesus

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  6. They failed to see Jesus as the Messiah

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  7. They denied a personal relationship with God

    16.7%
  8. Other (Please explain)

    66.7%
  1. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    So anyway, the Talmud also mentions a strange event. In the 40 or so years before the temple fell, there were alot of creepy signs.

    Talmudic Evidence for the Messiah at 30 C.E.
    Yoma 39b
    So let's break this down (cutting the quote for length).

    Was it because of Jesus being crucified? Or was it another cause? And no, I am not trying to sell you on "Jesus was the Messiah." I honestly feel like the person of Jesus was less important than what he taught, which got ignored entirely. So yea, let's talk about other options.

    Collusion with Rome

    In the NT lesson about taxes to Caesar, Jesus asks them to show the coin. They show a denarii with Caesar's face, not a shekel, meaning they were in the pocket of Rome. And they were involved in turning in people for crucifixion. Even without this, it was a pattern of conduct that when Judah/Israel let outside interests govern them or worshiped other gods, they tended to get punished.

    They rejected or dishonored God's commands and failed to atone

    This is consistent with Judaism (at least of that time). Judaism then had a different focus than modern Judaism, and was very much about sin and atonement. They had the sacrifice mentioned above of bleeding an animal for atoning for sins, but perhaps God could sense there was a sin they were not apologizing for.

    Well, there was one, as mentioned above, they did little to apologize for either things Jesus accused them of (their part in the death of many of the prophets, priority of Sabbath over pikuach nefesh and criticizing ppl for healing on the Sabbath, and neglect of widows/orphans/lepers/outsiders), and they seem to have swept Jesus under the rug so to speak (the Talmud portrays him as a sorcerer and a son of a whore).

    They failed to make reforms God told them through prophets and/or Jesus

    Jesus while being an actual Jew, obviously had a laundry list of reforms (see above). They kinda didn't do them.

    But he was hardly the first. Hosea had to go and marry a prostitute to show the people were unfaithful. Elijah had a king plotting his life. There were alot of prophets that weren't listened to in their time. And Jesus quoted Isaiah and Hosea and many of the other prophets. Meaning they were getting ignored then, too.

    They denied Jesus as the Messiah

    Pretty self explanatory. Basically that because the Jews rejected Jesus, this is what happened.

    They denied a personal relationship with God

    This one takes some explaining. Jesus is often called Emmanuel or "God with us" and it seems like a large part of his ministry was to teach about a personal relationship with God. In other words, it wasn't about him being the Messiah (or not) at all, but rather to teach the Jews that they didn't need priests or curtains or gates at all, but could directly speak to God. It also explains the torn curtain in Matthew 27:51. Obviously this would explain why any mention of him in the Talmud was chilly at best, a personal relationship would undermine their authority.

    So what do you think? Or will you reject that this happened, even though Jewish rabbis say it did?
     
  2. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Active Member

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    I believe that Stephen in (Acts 7:1-60) explains this very well.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  3. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Born-again Glompist
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    When a company has a successful product, it can promote the product on its own merits without speaking badly of other products.

    Bottom-of-the-barrel companies, on the other hand, sometimes try to attack and defame the competition to promote their products.

    Your thread is essentially the same as a cheap, tasteless, and hateful advert by a company failing to gain a customer base through respectable methods, so they resort to threats and glorification of sadism and "divine punishment" for other groups.

    You're not doing your beliefs any favors by presenting your arguments this way. Simply pathetic.
     
  4. Desert Snake

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    Commentary for those verses are unclear. Perhaps you could explain them.
     
  5. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Oh okay.

    The Temple fell. This is a historical event. The Jews recorded it went out with a bang in the Talmud. Some Christians will say it "proves" something, but I didn't. I put it to a poll. You rebuked me, accusing me of selling something, so now I will rebuke you.

    Jewish Racism: What Jews Think of Jesus and of Christians: A Warning to Christian Zionists

    Apparently according to the Talmud, Jesus is a Magician, whose Mother was a Whore and He's boiling in feces — Steemit

    This is actually what the Talmud said btw, the thing about the temple kinda falling apart and their miracles not working. The Jews own scripture. I'm not selling a thing. But since you think I am, perhaps you can explain what actually these Jewish "rabbis" are selling.

    Someone with nothing to sell says "Jesus was a minor prophet, who violated our Sabbath to heal, ate with sinners and the unclean, and mocked our rabbis and priests." Someone who is selling their religion says "Jesus was a sorcerer with disciples, who healed in his name, he turned to idolatry, and he was executed. Now he lives in a pile of boiling feces." And that's the story of the Talmud.

    Now, if you'd like to be civil, we'll get back on topic, which is, assuming this happened (because the Jews themselves do), what was God telling them?

    I respect the Jews. Even when they bear me no respect. But this isn't cool.
     
  6. Desert Snake

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    There could be something there, however in Jewish belief, that could or would be justified with parallel concordance, [spiritual respect for a phenomenon used in worship.

    Would say that that is the instance which might raise a question, however no need to bring it up, [specifically, because of "totality of religious obligation", or tradition.

    I don't want to get unnecessarily abstract concerning religious matters, since we aren't just talking about one idea.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    From the simple historical perspective the destruction of the temple just happened, The Jews and the Christians have different interpretations concerning what the prophetic meaning of the destruction of the Temple From the perspective of the Jews nothing changed concerning the punishment and consequences of sin, By far most Jews rejected the Claims of Jesus Christ then and in history up until today because they .do not believe Jesus Chrsit fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah and the King of the Jews.

    I as a Baha'i agree and disagree concerning the traditional claims of the Jews, and those of the Christians concerning the destruction of the Temple and the nature of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I view them in the universal context of all the religions of the world in the evolving spiritual nature of humanity in terms of Universal Revelation..
     
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  8. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    The stoning of Stephen?

    What about it?
     
  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    They rebelled against God and Murdered his Prophets, including Jesus. They were and still are a "Stiff Necked People". (Exodus 32). Even those guys in Jerusalem being so religious in their beliefs that women can not even walk on their street have completely missed the boat. I've heard a lot about their being "The Chosen of God". It seems likely that he is keeping his disobedient ones close so he can watch them.
     
  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    There is no Talmudic evidence that we were punished for rejecting Jesus. For one thing, according to the Talmud Jesus was killed about 100 years before the NT claims he was. So either the Talmud does not see any relation between Jesus' death and the Temple's destruction because they occurred over a century apart, or the Talmud doesn't believe your Jesus was significant enough to mention.

    Secondly, you've only brought part of the story. We don't need to turn to Jesus for an explanation, the Talmud is forthcoming:

    The Gemara continues its question: And it is taught in a baraita: Forty years before the destruction of the Second Temple, the Sanhedrin was exiled from the Chamber of Hewn Stone and sat in the store near the Temple Mount. And Rabbi Yitzḥak bar Avudimi says: The intent of the statement concerning the relocation of the Sanhedrin is to say that they no longer judged laws of fines. The Gemara asks: Does it enter your mind to say that they no longer judged laws of fines? It is known that the Sanhedrin would judge laws of fines for hundreds of years after the destruction of the Temple. Rather, he must have said that the Sanhedrin no longer judged cases of capital law. Once the Sanhedrin left the Chamber of Hewn Stone, the court’s power to judge capital cases was nullified.​

    The Sanhedrin we are taught, left it's place on the Temple Mount in order to avoid adjudicating capital punishment cases (this is based on a Law requiring that the Sanhedrin be located on the Temple Mount in order for us to be able to deal with capital cases and it's the reason we still do not do so today).

    The Gemara explains: What is the reason that the members of the Sanhedrin ceased to meet in their proper place and thereby ended the adjudication of capital cases? Once they saw that the murderers were so numerous and they were not able to judge them and punish them with death, they said: It is better that we should be exiled from the Chamber of Hewn Stone and move from place to place, so that offenders will not be deemed liable to receive the death penalty in a time period when the court does not carry out their sentences.​

    There are other passages in both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud that explain various sins that the nation was committing along with the one above, consistent with the Hellenization of the nation and responses to it's conquest by Rome. More likely, the authors of the NT were aware of this tradition about the Temple and chose that time frame to place Jesus.

    That article doesn't actually describe any racism on the part of anyone.

    It also incorrectly interprets a few passages:

    The Jewish Talmud states in Rosh Hashanah 17a that all Christians are going to burn in hell forever,

    "But as for the minim11 and the informers and scoffers,1 who rejected the Torah and denied the resurrection of the dead, and those who abandoned the ways of the community,2 and those who 'spread their terror in the land of the living', 3 and who sinned and made the masses sin, like Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his fellows—these will go down to Gehinnom and be punished there for all generations, as it says, And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against me4 etc."—I. Epstein, Rosh Hashanah 17a, "Rosh Hashanah", The Babylonian Talmud, The Soncino Press, London, (1938), pp. 64-67, at 64-65.
    This passage is referring to Jewish people. A non-Jew who doesn't believe in Judaism isn't called an heretic in Jewish Law. It would include early Christians who were Jews among other heretics.

    The Jewish Talmud in the book of Shabbath 116a instructs Jews to burn all Christian books,

    "Come and hear: The blank spaces5 and the Books of the Minim6 may not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names occurring in them. Now surely it means the blank portions of a Scroll of the Law? No: the blank spaces in the Books of Minim. Seeing that we may not save the Books of Minim themselves, need their blank spaces be stated?—This is its meaning: And the Books of Minim are like blank spaces."—I. Epstein, Shabbath 116a, "Shabbath", The Babylonian Talmud, Volume 8, The Soncino Press, London, (1938), pp. 567-571, at 569.
    This is not an instruction to burn all Christian books. This is a part of a longer passage that speaks about when a Torah scroll needs to be saved from a fire. This passage explains that even though heretic books may have G-d's Name written within it - and we are generally required to save items that have G-d's Name written on it, that's not the case with books of heretics and we're not required to save them.

    In the Jewish End Times, according to the Jewish Talmud in the book of Sanhedrin 57a-60b, all Gentiles must obey the Noahide Laws. In other words, Christians will be beheaded when the Jewish Temple replaces the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque and the Jewish King ascends his throne in Jerusalem.
    This is the author's conclusion and not the Talmud's.

    The Jewish Talmud in Hagigah 27a states that Jews, and especially Rabbis, never go to hell—so don't waste your breath,

    "R. Abbahu said that R. Eleazar said: The fire of Gehinnom4 has no power over the Scholars. It is an ad majus conclusion [to be drawn] from the salamander.5 If now [in the case of] the salamander, which is [only] an offspring of fire, he who anoints himself with its blood is not affected by fire, how much more so the Scholars, whose whole body is fire, for it is written:Is not My word like as fire? saith the Lord.6 Resh Lakish said: The fire of Gehinnom has no power over the transgressors of Israel. It is an ad majusconclusion [to be drawn] from the altar of gold. If the altar of gold, on which there is only a denar thickness of gold,7 is not affected through so many years by the fire, how much less so the transgressors of Israel, who are full of good deeds8 as a pomegranate [is of seeds]; for it is written, Thy temples are like a pomegranate split open.9 Read not 'thy temples' [rakkathek] but 'thy worthless ones' [rekanim shebak].10"—I. Epstein, Hagigah 27a, "Hagigah", The Babylonian Talmud, Volume 14, The Soncino Press, London, (1938), pp. 170-171, at 171.
    It's just the opposite, in both these examples, the subject is in the fire (ie. Hell). In fact the Talmud states elsewhere:

    The rebellious Jews who have sinned with their bodies and also the rebellious people of the nations of the world who have sinned with their bodies descend to Gehenna and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months, their bodies are consumed, their souls are burned, and a wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as it is stated: “And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet” (Malachi 3:21).​

    Clearly, Jews go to Hell. What the passage quoted by the author is referring to, is the somewhat protective nature of Torah study and performance of the commandments. I say somewhat, because as we can see from the passage I quoted, there's a limit. It can even be detrimental. Acher was the pseudonym given to the Rabbi of one of our greatest Sages. He was given this pseudonym because he became an heretic after a certain event and the word means "Other".

    The Gemara relates: When Aḥer passed away, the Heavenly Court declared that he should not be judged, nor brought into the World-to-Come. He should not be judged in a manner befitting his deeds, because he occupied himself with Torah, whose merit protects him. And he should not be brought into the World-to-Come because he sinned. Rabbi Meir said: It is better that he be judged properly and be brought into the World-to-Come. When I die I will request this of Heaven, and I will cause smoke to rise up from his grave, as a sign that he is being sentenced in Gehenna. The Gemara relates: When Rabbi Meir passed away, smoke rose up from the grave of Aḥer, implying that Rabbi Meir’s wish was granted.​

    There are no free passes in Judaism to Heaven or Hell.

    Why is this news?
     
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  11. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Active Member

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    Stephen, a powerful Christian, (Acts 6:8) had been arrested and is on trial. He has been falsely accused of blasphemy and preaching against the law and the temple. (Acts 6:13). All of this due to his arguing with the religious leaders about Jesus Christ. (Acts 6:9) He is arguing with the very people who had rejected Christ.

    He is given opportunity to answer the charges. (Acts 7:1) He gives an overview of the whole history of the Jews going all the back to Abraham. (Acts 7:7) What he is going to establish is that the Jews as a people have always rejected the one that God has sent. Just like they now have rejected their Messiah Jesus Christ.

    He shows how Joseph was rejected and afflicted by his brethren, the very patriarchs of the nation of Israel. But God elevated Joseph to not just as a ruler over Israel, but over Egypt also. (Acts 7:9-18)

    He shows how Moses was chosen by God to deliver the Jews out of bondage, but was rejected by the people of Israel. (Acts 7:20-39) See (Acts 7:35,39)

    He shows how the Jews would turn away from the true worship of God to worship idols and other gods. (Acts 7:40-43) They had a history of rejecting the true worship that God was giving them. Even David who desired to build a temple to God, was rebuked by God at first saying, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me?" (Acts 7:49)

    So Stephen has turned the tables on his accusers. They charge him with blasphemy and preaching against the temple. Stephen charges them with blasphemy against God and the true Temple. He declares that they are just like the Jews, their fathers, that came before in rejecting the anointed of God. They are just like the Jews that came before and killed the prophets. (Acts 7:51-52)

    So just like their fathers who reject God, the true Temple, and the prophets of God, so have they rejected Jesus Christ, the Just and Holy One of God. In other words, it shouldn't be a surprise to any that they reject their own Messiah.

    The Jews placed Stephen in their earthly court to judge and kill him. But they have been placed in God's court and have been found guilty.

    Thus you have the destruction of 70 A.D. (Matt.. 13:2)

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  12. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Active Member

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    See my explanation in post #(13).
     
  13. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Ahhhh. That does make sense. It was a long passage and I kinda lost the point at one part.

    Also, there's a quote from Jesus about a man inviting ppl to a party, and they all have reasons not to come. I voted about personal relationship with God, because I believe God doesn't care as strongly about affiliations as actually being ( the OT and NT uses the word "married") to God. So the man invites other people from the streets.
    In effect, Jesus is saying that because most of the Jews rejected him, he in effect became the Messiah not of Jews but of Gentiles. Despite there being no prophecy to that effect.

    In fact, the reason given is that they think their Messiah will repair the Temple (Jesus just did the opposite) and restore Israel as a nation. In another thread, I posed the question, "If Donald Trump in addition to declaring Jerusalem capital of Israel, decided to rebuild the Temple would he be the Messiah?" The answer again was no. Of course. Because he's not Jewish by birth. He's not what you expected. Because you know, God always did what you expected.
     
  14. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Active Member

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    Yes, it is a long passage. By the time it was over the Jews were ready to kill Stephen, and did. I am always surprised they let him go on as long as he did.

    Yes, God has turned to the Gentiles. But, I am of the belief that He has not totally rejected Israel and that He will restore her one day. Christ is still their Messiah, though as a nation they still reject Him. But one day I believe God will restore her. (Rom. 11:25-26)

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  15. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Born-again Glompist
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    Linking to a blog called "Jewish Racism" along with an anti-Semitic, smearing argument is neither civil nor respectful. You're kidding no one.

    I'm not Jewish, by the way. Not everyone who calls out fanatic Christian distortions about Jews and Judaism has to be Jewish.
     
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  16. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Born-again Glompist
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    Never let facts get in the way of a good old extremist Christian tirade against Jews.
     
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  17. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    In the sect that I was in, there was no tirade against Jews. We blamed the Romans...
     
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  18. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    DebaterSlayer, this is nice and all, but the point is I asked a simple question on a specific point ("why did all this stuff happen?") and I actually used an actual passage of Talmud, and some other user decided to get offended by it and tell me I was "selling" something and call me pathetic, and so I mocked them because they deserved whatever they got. Oh wait, that was you.

    I do believe God offers salvation to Jews, not "one day" but today.

    However, it's likely complicated.
    1. Jews have rejected the new covenant, so this would mean any salvation they would find would be at the hands of following the Law. But there's an added stipulation. They have to be better than the Pharisees of Jesus's time. And by better, I don't mean more perfectionist about laws. They have to follow all of the laws exactly, but also practice the mercy that Jesus accused the Pharisees of not living up to. Having struggled as an OCD person, I can tell you that while technically doable, this is not a very fun way to live.
    2. There's also a fine balance between helping the less fortunate (the Jew's goal in the absence of an official Messiah is to "repair the world" and some Jews actually believe the Messiah won't come nor the temple rebuilt until all things are prepared), and avoiding the law of unintended consequences (wanting to recycle for instance is very good, but for quite awhile this resulted in plastic ending up in the ocean because it was shipped by boat to China).
    3. In other words, yes very much, Jews are saved by good works. However, The Good Place provides a pretty good reason why this alone is often never enough. As does Final Fantasy X. Yes, I seriously used Final Fantasy in a theological discussion. Deal with it.
    It's not the Temple that is bad, the Temple is very very good, as it was the instrument of the Jewish faith and its ability to be a force for good in the world. Yet if the number of Jewish Nobel prizes is any judge, in some ways they are more able to attempt good works without it.

    Nor are the Jews themselves bad, though they are a stubborn people, quick to reject who God has chosen. This isn't about them either. Jesus makes an effort to save the Jews in addition to the Gentiles. Although this is part of it.

    Nearly all of Jesus's rage is against the rabbis, the scribes, and the priests. Why? Because sinners or not, these people were supposed to lead them, and he wasn't convinced they were actually helping them but rather laying more burden and suffering on them. Worse, the process of atonement was such that you had to basically pay for a sacrifice animal. Just as during the time of Martin Luther the sale of indulgences was a disgrace, this was a major drag on people's lives. And when someone brought up the ancient equivalent of 95 Thesis, rather than any sort of reform, they turned him over to the authorities.
     
    #18 Samantha Rinne, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:52 PM
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019 at 9:35 PM
  19. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I wouldn't dare! But it looks like I may have made it onto someone's ignore list, so thankfully it will be much easier to ignore the facts and tirade like the good Christian they are.
     
  20. Desert Snake

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    You can add quotes, or multi quote, then go up the quote name, so as not to get a 'non quote',

    Anyways, it seems you have a peculiar salvation via works, yet, if that were the case, then this would just be an incident, and wouldn't really affect jews.

    So, problems with salvation through works
     
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