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Psychedelic Jesus

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Cobol, Mar 27, 2017.

  1. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

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    If you understood allegory, you would know it is accurate.

    The Bible is real history and you have no real history than any Bible characteristic was not a real person.

    Silly statements are just that, silly

    Surely you read better than too think that was mixture was to be taken internally. To understand it, read 30:25. What was sweet was cinnamon ,


    Guess again. It was not used for trade and calamus means reed or branch, not weed.


    Calamus is only used once in the Bible, Song of Solomon 4:14 and again it is an ingredient in an ointment, not something to be smoked or taken internally.

    First, it is not missing, it is stated plainly. It is cinnamon. Second, the holy ANOINTING oil was not to be taken internally. It might help if you get a good dictionary and look up the meaning of ANOINTING.


    If she was trying to prove what you are trying to prove, she wasted her time. Canabus does not describe somethng to be smokked or drunk.

    Where?

    It is amusing that you are trying to use something you don't believe in to prove something you do believe in.
     
  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Nothing supernatural in the Bible can be proven. Nor can a lot of the characters, and some of the so-called history.

    LOL! You need to do some reading. It was burning and the High priests breathed it in! Why do you think things that made noise were on their robes? If the noise stopped - they could pull him out as he probably passed out.

    Marijuana creams and oils pass through the skin and work just fine.

    Her research, matched the Hebrew research, and their Hebrew encyclopedia. Perhaps you need to reread that.

    And NOT CINNAMON! Obviously you skimmed over what was said - as cinnamon is one of the OTHER ingredients in the mix!

    Exo 30:23 Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus (qaneh bosem cannabis) two hundred and fifty shekels,

    Exodus 30:23; Song of Solomon 4:14; Isaiah 43:24; Jeremiah 6:20; & Ezekiel 27:19. Kaneh bosem

    We also have Onycha which is also a hallucinogen.

    Exo 30:34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take unto thee sweet spices, stacte, and onycha, and galbanum; these sweet spices with pure frankincense: of each shall there be a like weight:

    Onycha is from Murex snails. In some areas the shell is powdered and added to smokes as an psychotropic.

    And there are those whom believe the "burning bush" Seneh - is also a hallucinogen.

    And good grief - I was using "weed" as the generally understood = marijuana.

    The translators got it wrong putting in reed.

    *
     
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  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Though agreed, as Dr Sula Benet of the Warsaw university put forward, that Kaneh Bosem should translate as Cannabis....

    Which causes the anointing oil to become a molecular compound, due to THC being fat soluble.

    Yet some of the verses you've put only says Kaneh, and not necessarily Kaneh-Bosem which is only in Exodus 30:23-24. ;)

    We should also take into account that the disciples were healing with it in Mark 6:13, and James 5:14. :innocent:
     
  4. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    I'm pretty sure they used it just as we do today, - for mysticism, - relaxation, - medical, etc. :cool:

    The verses are from the authors. It appears that both the longer and shorter form were used.

    "The plant name Cannabis is from Greek κάνναβις (kánnabis), via Latin cannabis,[1] originally a Scythian or Thracian word,[2] also loaned into Persian as kanab. English hemp (Old English hænep) may be an early loan (predating Grimm's Law from the same Scythian source."

    "The word 'gan-zi-gun-nu' is referenced from stone tablets (dating 700 BCE) that indicate a connection with eastern and near-eastern terms for the plant (gan-zi > ganja, gun-nu > qaneh). This substance was used for witchcraft and prescribed as a useful remedy for a variety of ailments including depression and impotence.[11]

    Hebrew קַנַּבּוֹס (qannabbôs) from קְנֵה בֹּשֶׂם (qěnēh bośem) may derive from Sumerian kunibu, [12] though the final -s does not seem to be present in Akkadian (Assyrian) or Sumerian forms. Leading authorities on the etymology of both the German and Russian languages list a Sumerian cognate.

    Raphael Mechoulam and co-workers at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem suggest an alternative etymology for cannabis: Greek cannabis < Arabic kunnab < Syriac qunnappa < Hebrew pannag (= bhanga in Sanskrit and bang in Persian). They explain that in Hebrew, only the consonants form the basis of a word and the letters p and b are frequently interchangeable. The authors think it probable that 'pannag', mentioned in the Bible by the prophet Ezekiel (27:17), is in fact Cannabis.[14]"

    "Barber analyzed cognate words for "hemp" and "cannabis" in Indo-European languages, and proposed an etymological root of *kan(n)aB- (where *B represents a *p or *b bilabial stop). A reconstructed Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *p- is evident in many IE subgroups:
    • Slavic languages (Russian konopljá, Croatian konoplja, Bulgarian konop, and Czech konopĕ)
    • Baltic languages (Lithuanian kanãpė, Latvian kaņepe, and Old Prussian knapios)
      • Some Finnic languages (Ingrian kaneppi and Estonian kanep) have loaned the word from Baltic.
    • Armenian (kanap)
    • Albanian (kanëp)..." Wiki
    Very interesting.

    *
     
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  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Always glad when these topics come up, for once we're in agreement more or less...

    Relaxation was done outside of temple practises; so there is the holy anointing oil, the ceremonial incense which were all sanctified, and only allowed for the King and priests.

    When Christ (Anointed one) came along; Yeshua's teachings allowed the Holy Anointing oil to be used on everyone for healing (Mark 6:13, James 5:14), and mysticism (Matthew 6:17, Matthew 6:6)...

    Which is where we got the terminology Christians (anointed ones) from; the early church were all on the Holy anointing oil, and this has slowly been forgotten from most religious cultures globally.

    'We are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God' - Theophilus

    Thus my understanding of the Tree that shall heal the nations (Revelation 22:2) is it is cannabis; as it was the sacred plant that wrote Zoroastrianism (Haoma), Judaism (Kaneh-Bosem), Hinduism (Soma), and American Indian (Nawak'osis), etc. :innocent:
     
  6. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    That's what so many people want to believe. Actually Psychedlics and very Special and Holy, despite how people treat Them. I can tell you, no amount of standing on one's head and chanting will do what Psychelics do and Show. Not now, not ever. No way. Psychedelics are not some dead tool like any other. They are truly the "Flesh of God".
     
  7. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    He definatly was ingesting Mushrooms. There is no mistake that Christ changed the world, and the Budhha and Muhammed, etc. as well. There was no mistake in the miracles or that they came from the Spirit. It was not an accident.
     
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  8. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    How is it you can state so emphatically that someone can't do that, if you yourself haven't experienced these things without drugs? How do you deal with those who say they have? That you haven't, simply means you need that assist, and that's perfectly fine. I personally have experienced them both with and without drugs.

    There's something to be said for each way, but personally, without is the preferred way. A natural opening into these states is accessible anywhere, anytime. It would be an error to claim ALL mystical states are drug induced. I have pages of meditation journals over the course of several years describing these experiences, all without any drugs whatsoever.

    And yes, I agree drugs like these should be treated as sacred, rather than recreational. But it is an error to believe you can't get there without them, be those psychedelics or chantings or any other assist. It can become as simple turning the spigot on a faucet to let the water flow, without needing a wrench to help you loosen it. That way, you can access the water without having to have that tool always with you. You can just use your own hands.

    To me, all those do is help you to see what is all already there within you naturally without needing to come from some external source. To say you can't without the drugs, is like saying you can't be happy without someone to make you happy.

    It's a mistaken perception of where that happiness exists. All that really happens is they "give you permission" to let that happiness come out of you. They don't "give" it to you. To fall into that trap, works against what they were they to help you find in the first place. To say you can't get there without them, ends up with you not Awakening to who you are at all times, unconditionally.

    And BTW, mystical experience should never be about the experiences. The experiences are "teachers", but not the lesson to be learned itself.
     
    #28 Windwalker, Oct 21, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
  9. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    Consider this: Why do people today in world 'religions' not see real Visions (not based on starvation or mental issues,etc) when taking communion or see actual Spirits & Light, but the Prophets in the bible clearly did - & that is how the Scriptures came to be? What changed? The catholic church gives a wheat wafer for 'communion'. But if you ask people, 'did you actually see a real Light, or hear a real Spirit, the answer is no.' and yet this is being called the Blood & Body of Christ! My point now is that the wheat wafer is a substitution for what was the original Sacrament the Disciple were ingesting.
     
  10. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    I agree with so much of what you said here, Cobol. The Manna absolutely was the Mushroom. Not long after Christ was gone, the powers that took over the knowdege began removing the Mushroom & replacing with a substitute. Its been so long now, its not even recognized by most people that the substitute is indeed a substitute.
     
  11. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    Kaneh-Bosem is absoulety Cannabis. Sula Bentet was a highly skilled researcher/etymologist. Exhaustedly researched this, to correct conclusions. People shouldn't assume that what they are being told today is what things were like when Christ lived and soon after he was gone. Look at the frescos, stained glass of that period. there are substitutes today that arent even realized to be substitutes. At one point in history it was understood the wheat wafer is a substitute. If anyone truly wants to know the Truth they can.
     
  12. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Yet, I experience that Light and Spirit, without drugs. To assume as you are that those who have such experiences must have been on drugs, because you had some experiences using them, is an error of your reasoning. I have them, without. Answer why, or how if drugs are a necessity in your imagination, is that possible?

    You know atheists think people who claim spiritual experiences are lying, because it's never happened to them? Is that what you are doing here? Because you never experience God without drugs, no one else can either?
     
  13. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    Not all substances are drugs Windwalker. Psychedelics aren't drugs. They are Substances, Sacraments. Drugs produce addiction & lower consciousness. Psychedelics release from addiction (Ibogaine, Psylocin, etc) & raise consciouness. I feel you are not liking my views, but its really about more than me -- like what did you think of that the wheat wafer served today as 'communion' is clearly a substitution for what the original Christians were ingesting & writing about.
     
  14. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    The name Kaneh Bosm is lovely. and the story of the word origin is very interesting & reveals Truth
     
    #34 Lightfollower, Oct 21, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Chemical assists then if you don't like the word drugs. My point is, those aren't necessary to have transcendental experiences. You seem to claim that they are, that meditation cannot take you where these "assists" can. Am I incorrect in that statement?

    I've stated I have no problem with using these "assists". For instance, smoking marijuana is also an assist to meditation - if you actually meditate with them, rather than just "getting high" as a form of escape. But you should be able to get there without them. My contention with you is your statement that you can't. My own experiences disprove that.

    It's not clear that is what was going on. I hear an awful lot of reading back into to the texts a much later, modern understanding. Sort of like claiming the cave drawings of ancient man were encounters with UFOs, and reading into the drawing all manner of modern artifacts. That's playing loose and free with the data. While interesting, and often entertaining, it doesn't present itself as a near certainty, by any means.

    To simply say because you have had similar experiences to what is described when you took these chemical assists, that they therefore must have been using them too just like you, is not a valid conclusion. It's circular reasoning. I have experienced the Absolute; Light, Life, and Love in timeless states of Infinity, without any chemicals or agents of any kind. It can happen spontaneously, or through meditation, or with ingestion of these "aides" to spiritual states.

    Mystical experiences do occur naturally without taking any substances into you. And they can be just as, and even more powerful than with the assists of these substances. Do you disagree with either of these two statements?


    Edit to Add: My problem with the perception that we cannot experience these states without the use of substances is twofold. First it is factually inaccurate. But more importantly, if we cannot attain this without the use of external substances, then what is opened to in us is not real. It is the chemicals, not actual states of actual Enlightenment.

    Here's my take on this. These chemical assists, or any form of meditation assists, such as chanting, mantras, drumming, dancing, etc., simply act and are effective because they suppress or limit the levels of these otherwise distracting noise of our typical minds, constantly swept up into the currents of thoughts and anxieties, emotions and psychological variables, etc. They allow the "higher mind" to more clearly shine forth from the detris of the ordinary mind.

    The point then being, it is NOT the chemicals that produce this, but they merely aid or assist in helping the mind access what it fully has already naturally. At a certain point, we don't need training wheels to help us develop a sense of balance. We just hop on the bike, and ride, under the guidance of our innate sense of balance. No assists are necessary.
     
    #35 Windwalker, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  16. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    The Plaincourault Abbey Fresco from 1291 speaks volumes. Amazing.
     
  17. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    Just seeing your post today.
    Is meditation often very healthy and helpful and improves life? Of course.
    Let me put it this way: You & I are only able to have this conversation,or any, because the 5-Methoxy DMT & DMT in our pineal glands are sending Consciousness to our mind, brain, and other organs to operate all the time. We are 'Chemically assisted" at all times. We have to eat regular food and water which are chemicals repeatedly. Do I think humans are spiritually self-sufficient any more that we are physically self-sufficient? No. Psychedelics are the true Communion Substance of the Scriptures. I'm proud to love that.
     
    #37 Lightfollower, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  18. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    By "assisted", that cannot mean the natural production of the body within itself. That would be the word "unaided". You are talking about adding something to it. That is what is meant by assisted, or aided by some external agent.

    The unaided body, the unassisted body, is able to give anyone a mystical experience. Do you not believe this for some reason? What reason would that be?

    You don't believe we can have mystical experiences without taking drugs into our bodies? Explain my experiences then, and those of countless others.

    Can you experience God without these substances? Why not? I would hope you could.
     
  19. Lightfollower

    Lightfollower Member

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    I dont want to talk about your personal experiences which are obviously very important & meaningful to you. Also part of the reason is you want to believe something is wrong with me, when many cultures and people have believed it as well. (Not that I need a lot of people on my side).
    But my point is: there is only one identity of the Manna that led the Israelites. There is only one Identity (which is considered lost) of Soma, the Plant that inspired the oldest most sacred Hindu texts. There is only one Identity of the actual Bread that was eaten by Christ and which he proclaimed to be his body and blood. There is only one Identity of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. This Identity is what started Religion.
    There was more to my point about Psychedelics are what gives us Consciousness in our bodies....than 'assisted' or added. They are molecularly different and Holy. That doesn't mean most people recognize that or won't fight hard to dismiss that. But that's the way its always been.

    Peace
     
  20. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I'm not interested in talking about them either. I'm only making the point that you seem to think you can't have mystical experience without taking some form of chemical assist. That relates to all mystical experiences, not just my own.

    What is wrong with you is your projection of your own personal fears on others, ascribing motives to them which in reality they don't have at all. It's simply a mirror projection of what you yourself are doing, making it reflect back to you as if it were their image you were seeing and not your own. None of what you assume about me is real.

    So this alone is my question to you which you are dodging and avoided directly answering. Do you believe that you cannot have a mystical experience without taking some form of chemical assist into your bodies in order for them to happen? Yes, or No.

    For the record, which I have stated in every post I've made so far which you seem to not be hearing for some reason, I do not deny the value of ingesting these in spiritual practice. I do see value in them. But unlike you, I recognize we can experience God in ways beyond what they can do, and that they are not necessary in order to have mystical experiences.

    Again, do you believe that you can have equally, if not considerable more illuminating spiritual experiences without taking psychedelics? Yes, or No?

    If you fail to answer that direct question again, there will be no further responses, as that is the answer offered by you avoiding saying it. You believe what works for you, is the one, and only true way for all others.

    That is how the Christian Fundamentalist thinks, and it gets transferred over to whatever then next great "truth" they find, whether that is scientism as a neo-atheist, or someone who has discovered DMT, as "The way, the truth, and the life". It is all the same error, just dressed up with different robes.
     
    #40 Windwalker, Nov 5, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
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