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Featured Psalm 22 is about David, not Jesus?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Buddha Dharma, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Psalm 22 is a famous example of Christians referring back to the Hebrew Bible for messianic prophecies.

    In this Psalm, we find the author lamenting that God has forsaken him and doesn't help him. That his enemies surround him, and so on...


    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?

    (6-8) But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”


    As we proceed on, the author says that like lions at his feet, his tormentors surround him. They divide his garments among themselves, and so on. See: Psalms 22

    Christians have long pointed to these verses as a prophecy of Jesus by David. However, what if they are about David himself?

    There was an episode very like the events described in David's own life, when his son Absalom usurped the throne of Israel. David and his loyalists had to go on the run, always pursued by Absalom's loyalists. Certainly, David's 'royal garments' were being divided among his enemies, who had usurped his administration.

    Why should we infer Jesus from this passage as Christians wish us to?

    Psalms 22:6-8 finds sufficient explanation in the following, does it not?


    2 Samuel 16:5-10 As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left.

    As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”

    Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”

    But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”


    We find here I think, not only sufficient explanation for much of Psalm 22, but we also see that David had a notion of righteous suffering. David thought that perhaps God had given him over to suffer. This kind of vicarious suffering is applied to Israel itself in Isaiah 53, which Christians also infer to be about Jesus.

    Do you think that saying Psalm 22 is about David fleeing Absalom is a stretch, or the Christian reading back into it much later is?
     
  2. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Is this not the situation which Jesus himself was in on the cross? And as a Jew would have known the Psalm and lamented his own suffering and seeming abandonment, by his followers and his God.
     
  3. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    At the following link, there is a nice discussion of Psalm 22 and Christ: link: Psalm 22 and The Passion of Jesus

    While it is no surprise that non-Christians would try to find ways to disagree with the Christian teachings, you have in this the following to consider:
    what is the purpose with the holy writings of the OT and the NT? They surely are not to be the focus of individuals though mentioned; rather, the things written in scripture has to do with Genesis, "15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. "

    Paul spoke about this seed: Galatians 3:16:Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Thus the holy writings were not about Absalom, David, their feelings, or about Abraham, Noah - though some of these people appear prominently in scripture. The holy writings are about God's seed defeating the Original Serpent Satan, about the Seed of the woman, heavenly Jerusalem, who brought forth this Seed. This is what things turn about.

    I have read that more than 200, I think perhaps 300 some prophecies, were mentioned that may speak of our Lord, Christ. If he indeed is the one who ransoms mankind, of those who show faith, it is only natural that things should turn about this one.

    That non Christians would mock, or disagree with, this is also natural.
     
    #3 Grandliseur, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Its too difficult to explain in a post and in such a hostile and confrontational environment. To begin with I am not going to explain where it connects with Jesus, because the psalm itself deserves explanation. Were I to connect it with Jesus but lose grasp of the Psalm what profit would be in it? I suggest first looking at Psalm 2. Suppose you are a young Jewish boy singing this and imagine what it is saying to you. It should be saying that although on the outside it appears you have been surrounded and oppressed that on the inside and where it truly matters your enemies are hopelessly outnumbered. These are the words of the worlds most powerful movement. These are David versus Goliath and Hezekiah versus Assyria. Where most people say "Ok lets just give in to the way things are" this is a song about saying "No. This is how things are going to be!" Revisiting your question about Psalm 22 it is another song that is sung by the same boy. He's complaining about how he's being treated, but he is also talking about how he will not be cowed. Maybe he is living in medieval Europe and is not allowed to work or in Russia and suffering under a pogrom, or maybe he lives longer ago and is under the Grecian empire or even longer ago and is under the political power of the Philistines. He sings "But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people." He then declares "...You LORD are my strength..." He takes a powerful stance and turns the world on its head, and that is what Psalm 22 is about. It says "The poor will eat and be satisfied. Those who seek the LORD will praise him..." indicating ultimate vindication of this martyr of peace who is singing this song.
     
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  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    David was prophesying about himself; Yeshua was a Reincarnation of David in the flesh; as the end Messiah is prophesied to be David.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  6. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Yep, definitely about King David.

    So is 2Sa 7:12-15, which they claim is about Jesus.

    2Sa 7:12 And when thy (King David) days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee (Solomon), which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

    2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (Solomon built the Temple)

    2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. (same as his father - Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.) If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

    2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. (The promise to David)

    *
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Inodj har-ek Horu
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    Yes, it is about David. It is about when he was being chased by his enemies and giving thanks for being delivered from them, as we read about in the Book of Samuel (if I recall correctly).
     
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  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is most likely a combination of a lament by David and prophecy of Jesus. I believe the following verses would be a stretch for David:
    Ps 22:14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.
    15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    16 For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Inodj har-ek Horu
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    Apart from it says nothing about piercing. That's Christian doctoring.

    For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

    'Like a lion' = ka'ari.

    Ari appears in names like Ariel (lion of G-d) and Aryeh, with the same meaning.

    There is nothing here about piercing.
     
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  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I don't believe the prophecy says that it will be David but that He will be a descendant of David.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I do not know the Hebrew for this verse but I do know that as you have listed it the phrase my hands and feet seems to be disjointed form the rest of the sentence and lacks rational meaning.
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Inodj har-ek Horu
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    They do seem disjointed, but that's not an argument to add in words that simply aren't there.
     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It's worth noting that the words in Hebrew for 'as a lion' and 'digging' ('piercing') appear to the eye to be very similar, and might easily be confused in transcription.

    It's actually the insertion of 'as a lion' that causes problems with the context. Once this is done, additional words have to be added to give clarity and meaning to the sentence.

    In the Tanakh translation issued by the Jewish Publication Society, the reading is 'Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet.' The words [they maul] have been added to provide meaning! But even then the passage is muddled. Why apply a simile about lions to a pack of dogs?

    So who, given the context of Psalm 22, is most likely to have corrupted the text, unintentionally or not?
     
    #13 Redemptionsong, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Ingledsva, this is not a true representation of the scripture because you cut out the important passages that precede the ones quoted.
    In verse 5 of Chapter 7 you have the question that sets the scene. Nathan receives the word of the Lord, and is told, 'Go and tell my servant David, Thus sayeth the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?' [Can a man build God's house?]
    In verse 11 it says, 'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.'

    It's vitally important to digest these words! THE LORD WILL BUILD HIS HOUSE! So the words 'and I will establish his kingdom' (verse 12) are no longer referring to Solomon. The words that refer to Solomon begin with 'thy' - 'thy seed' and 'thy bowels'. 'His' is a reference to the kingdom belonging to the king who will reign forever. HE (the LORD) will build a house, and the Messiah's kingdom will be for ever (verse 13).

    Verse 14 is interesting because it can be applied to both Jesus as Messiah (Israel) and Israel (the descendants of Jacob). The word 'If' separates the two; the Messiah is without iniquity, but Israel the nation is not. Which is why Israel the nation needs to repent [all who come to Christ must do this].

    The final act will be ATONEMENT. Israel will be ONE - the people (ISRAEL and JUDAH) SAVED in Christ (ISRAEL). 'Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:' (Isaiah 45:17). 'In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:' (Jeremiah 23:6)
     
    #14 Redemptionsong, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  15. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Yes and that is a fair point, but it doesn't make the Psalm prophetic in any fashion.

    Should Christian teachings be disagreed with if it can be reasonably shown they misrepresent the Hebrew Bible- which is the holy scriptures of the Jews? I can appreciate how the Jews must feel about this, and I think anyone could.

    Genesis isn't being prophetic there, is it? Is that something we absolutely must infer?

    Christians say that a lot, and I think that is somewhat of an admission. A halfway conceding that the passage is about it's historical context.

    @Rival beat me to it. Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism I have studied a bit, and it interests me only as being the fundamental monotheistic religion as it were. The one where it started.
     
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  16. Rival

    Rival Inodj har-ek Horu
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    This refers to David not being the one to build the Temple. It mentions nothing about a man not being able to build the Temple, you have just inserted this with no basis. G-d instructed people specifically to build His House. See the book of Ezechiel where G-d gives the prophet specific instructions on how the build the Third Temple. In Exodus 25:8 G-d specifically commands that the Israelites build Him a sanctuary and then goes on to describe how to make the objects that will fill the sanctuary (the Temple).

    In 1 Chronicles we learn why HaShem never let David build the Temple:

    1 Chron 28:2-3:

    ‘Hear me, my brothers and my people. I had planned to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the L-rd, for the footstool of our G-d; and I made preparations for building. But G-d said to me, “You shall not build a house for my name, for you are a warrior and have shed blood.”


    It's not because he's a man.

    Yes, David's Kingdom/seed will be established forever.

    Regarding verse 11:

    And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the L-rd has told you that the L-rd will make for you a house.


    G-d here is referring to the royal household. As in English we say the House of Hanover etc. The current British royal family is called The House of Windsor. The next verse logically follows this as HaShem is then talking about 'raising your offspring up after you', as in a royal household.

    When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish His kingdom.

    Here He is still talking to David, with the offpsring/seed being Solomon. Following this, verse 13 is regarding Solomon:

    He [the offspring, Solomon] shall build a House for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom [the royal line of David] forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of Adam.

    He afterwards contrasts Solomon with Shaul in verse 15, saying:

    "But My mercy shall not depart from him as I withdrew it from Shaul, whom I removed from before you."

    'You' here still refers to David, who is the recipient of the message.


    There is no 'if' in the verse:

    I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of Adam.

    Shmuel II - II Samuel - Chapter 7

    The RSV and NRSV also uses 'when'.
     
    #16 Rival, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  17. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    I guess you can say it was exclusively about Solomon, even though Solomon's reign didn't last forever(2 Sam. 7:16, Jer 22:28-30,37:1). That certainly makes sense, especially given the condition of 1 Chr. 28:6-7, that it would be everlasting(2Sa 23:5).
     
  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well honestly, anyone who doesn't believe the words of Jesus will likely not believe that this Psalm is about Jesus either. What people don't take into account is the spiritual struggle that has been going on since the beginning between good and evil. (John 8:44) The point of giving such obscure "hidden" references to Jesus in the scriptures was to confuse the adversary. If satan had known what Jesus' mission on earth was (... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8) and if satan had known what the effect of the crucifixion would be. (Colossians 2:15) He would never have done it. (1 Cor. 2:8) So it was necessary to keep these truths hidden until they were accomplished. It was afterwards that the scripture says Jesus "opened their understanding" of the scriptures. (Luke 24:45) Then Jesus commanded them to teach these truths about Him, His nature, His mission etc. to all the world. (Mark 16:15) However, Jesus did give a hint on the cross when He quoted the scripture "Eloi,Eloi, lama sabachthani?"
     
  19. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Everyone has the right to agree or disagree about all things; that is why we have flat-earthers. When people disagree about laws, import export, some are forced to pay big money when caught by those who claim to have the power to make you pay. Similarly, in this case about the Bible, if Christians are right about their viewpoint, and we are not talking about modern Christians, but the ones who are said to cure people, even resurrect people by the power of God - you might come up against those whom you cannot argue with (God, Christ, the angels).

    You say you are Buddhist, as such you believe whatever it is you believe, we cannot define Buddhism for you. That is your religion. Likewise, in this case, as Christians we have our beliefs. We shall either be justified or find out that we are wrong. We don't have to take into consideration what non Christians claim, what their ideas are, etc. We stand before Christ daily, who carries our prayers before God (since we pray in his name). This is our consideration.

    In your last comment about Genesis. Why and how is that not a prophecy?! Again, you are trying to justify things for yourself, for your mind. Fine with me.

    Last night I looked at a video of train travel in Nepal. It introduced me to the unraveling of society, nearly total. The nations have so much invested in war and weapons, but this nation that is falling apart, the people who have next to nothing - how sad. We surely are in the end times as the Bible has spoken of. Are you preparing yourself to meet your maker? Soon, judgment comes upon this earth and all shall get returned their works. Are you ready? If then the judge is Christ, what will you say to him, so to say, when he views your record?!

    Again, I don't care what others do. I only need to care about what I do.
     
  20. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    That it was not prophetic when written does not exclude the fact that it was understood by those Jews who believed in Jesus and searched their Scripture for the answers to who and why of Jesus. They found those answers in their own Scripture. That does not mean that was the intent of the biblical author when he wrote.
     
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