Prove: Satan does (not) exist

[Goodman John]

I solve the problem elegantly with Gnostic/Manichaean dualism: A Good God and an Evil Satan as equal and opposing forces in the spiritual realm. At one point God got the upper hand and Satan was defeated; in his defeat Satan created the physical realm (our universe) into which he escaped. (Yadda yadda Satan creates Man to be a servant, puts stolen spirits in Man to make him work, Christ comes along to let us know the deal, and it's game on.) When enough spirits/souls are returned to the spiritual realm the physical realm (again, our universe) will cease to exist and Satan will be returned to the spiritual realm to await the inevitable beat-down from God as punishment for making him wait. Satan pays his dues, balance is restored, and Things Continue Swimmingly until the next donnybrook between the two heavyweights. Maybe God wins again next time, maybe Satan wins. Assuming we make it 'back home', we'll have a ringside seat for the next cage match.

 

[Rise]

What "facts" would that BE? From the bible?

I told you what it was in what you quoted:

You also assume satan is able to do it if you invite him to. We know in the Bible satan is restrained from doing many things and won't be fully unrestrained until the end times tribulation period.

Are you disputing it is a Biblical fact that satan is restrained from doing whatever he wants prior to the end time?
If so, I can provide you with Scriptures which establish that Biblical fact.

If you go by the bible-- and don't try to weasel your way around what is actually written?

Then both Satan AND God are required to respond-- because in either case, A Challenge To Their Authority was issued.

And the bible makes 100% clear, that either character cannot refuse a Challenge To Their Authority.

In that regard, neither has Free Will-- they Must Act. Their nature compels them to Act.

What you say isn't true, and because it isn't true you won't be able to prove your claim. An analysis of the Scriptures will bear that out.
But, since you are the one making the claim, the onus is first on you to provide proof of your claim.
So, where are the Scriptures you say proves your claim?
You can't just make an assertion about what the Bible says without being willing to back it up when pressed.

You have to Biblicly prove the following for your claims to be true:
1. Show that there are circumstances in which satan or God do not have free will and are forced to act.
2. Show that they are forced to answer a challenge to their authority.
3. Show what it actually means to "challenge their authority".
4. Show that this experiment designed by the OP fits within your claim of a challenge satan would be forced to answer.

I can tell you now that you won't be able to do that, because your assertion isn't true and the Scripture doesn't say what you claim it does.

 

[Goodman John]

But here's the thing: what if 'God' in the Old Testament- the vicious, jealous, spiteful, psychotic god that is presented- isn't 'God' at all, but Satan masquerading AS God? If we flip the script so many things about the OT 'God' make perfect sense. Why is there evil in the world? Because Satan created it and Satan is evil so there you go. Why are people killed out of hand because 'God' is mad that they're worshiping someone else? Satan wants all the attention, of course. Plagues, war, famine, fire, drought, aggressive vegetarians- all courtesy of The Bad Guy pretending to be The Good Guy. (But all is not lost! In Act II- the New Testament- we get the skinny from Christ who shows up in Jesus and tells us about the REAL Good God, and voila! Satan's got some serious competition for control of Man's soul.)

 

[InChrist]

If that is true? Satan *must* be an Agent OF god.

It cannot be any other way!

Just as a policeman who always looks the other way, when a particular criminal does criminal things?

So too, your god looks the other way-- worse-- with malice and deliberate intent, gave Satan power over earth!

Thus, Anything-- repeat ANYTHING that Satan does? IS with the explicit PERMISSION of your god!

To say otherwise, is to say Satan is more powerful than your god!

Yes, satan is under the authority of God and must have permission. It says as much in the scriptures. Yet, satan is allowed only to do that which accomplished God's ultimate good plan for His creation and for humanity to have a real and free choice in whom they will love and follow.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Disclaimer:
1: All the below is my personal opinion in my quest for truth. I Can be wrong. No disrespect.
2: IF someone would argue "this thread is crazy", then I would argue "not half as crazy as allowing religious people claiming `all go to hell unless they have accepted Jesus` etc.etc."

Since 1 year I see several religious persons try to impose on me/others that a real Devil/Satan exists using words like "we know that Satan is doing ...." etc. Very friendly if they like to warn us. But if untrue, this is just a burden to our mind and really useless. They should say "IMHO, I know that Satan is doing ...".

Now I do understand Atheists when Theists claim "we know that God is doing ...." etc. Exactly the same. And many make even a combi out of the two, adding Jesus or maybe Muhammad sometimes.

Is there a way to prove that God or Satan exists? If not, is it fair to claim they exist? Without using IMHO, this can be seen as a kind of brainwashing and emotional indoctrination, which IMO is not a good thing. I think it is our duty to scientifically disprove false claims, especially, because creating fear is a great stress in humans, causing many problems.

To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

"Truth" or "Dare":
If Satan is out to "get us", then to prove this to be "Truth" I will "Dare" Satan to kill me tonight in between 22h and 06h. This is a one time offer. Not out of fear, but because of this above bold claim and me not being interested in wasting any more time with this Satan illusion (I have never considered Satan to be real, but being scientist, why not disprove this once and for all?). I am willing to sacrifice myself (to be killed) to Satan.

I did make a poll, to make it more scientific; if others like to join (not for the "faint of heart" of course).
And in the case Satan exists and kills all or some of the participants see Disclaimer below:
Disclaimer:
1) Whoever participates in the poll does so out of his/her own free will
2) RF (Religious Forums) nor anyone else can be held responsible or accountable

Beware: I do give Satan believers the benefit of the doubt. So I had to formulate the poll in a bit sinister way. Because in the case Satan is real (just to be complete), I will die, and won't be able to answer the poll.
* At 22h I select poll option 1/2: "I died, so Satan is true".
* At 06h I select poll option 3/4: "I died NOT, so Satan is false" + Deselect option 1/2:

Poll Question: I Dare Satan to kill me to prove He exists
Poll Options:
1: I died, so Satan is true
2: I died, so Satan might be true
3: I died NOT, so Satan is false
4: I died NOT, so Satan might be false
5: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch
6: I might participate maybe later
7: Satan won't take the challenge
8: I believe Satan exists
9: I believe Satan does not exist

Note 1: Satan should agree with 22h-06h time frame to make sure it's Satan and not coincidence.

Note 2: I will set the alarm to deselect "poll option 1" as soon as possible

Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility

Hi stvdv. Love your sincere open mindedness.

Does darkness really exist? We see it or at night think it exists but is it a real existence?
It’s just lack of light when the sun sets.

Satan to me is referring to the ego of man but in past ages it was personified as it was difficult for people to understand the concept of ego back then.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 263-264

 

[stvdv]

...on Facebook or Twitter if he doesnt have an Official Facebook page.

You lost me, I don't use these

 

[stvdv]

Yes, satan is under the authority of God and must have permission. It says as much in the scriptures. Yet, satan is allowed only to do that which accomplished God's ultimate good plan for His creation and for humanity to have a real and free choice in whom they will love and follow.

Thank you for sharing.
Good that Satan is also under God's control.

I made it already till 03h. So far Satan chickened out of my challenge. But still 3h to go

I do believe in Satan being man's own wicked thoughts at most.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

lol

 

[stvdv]

Hi stvdv. Love your sincere open mindedness.

Thank you brother. And thank you for sharing your view. Makes most sense to me

Does darkness really exist? We see it or at night think it exists but is it a real existence?
It’s just lack of light when the sun sets.

The radiant sun within is easily obscured by the clouds of one's own desires

Satan to me is referring to the ego of man but in past ages it was personified as it was difficult for people to understand the concept of ego back then.

I agree on your view of Satan

I am not sure if that is accurate, as in the time of Rama (maybe 20.000 years ago) this knowledge was already available, as well as in the time of Krishna (ca. 5000 years ago) in the Hindu Scriptures.

Gopikas (never attended university) could still understand ego was worthless. You think suddenly in time of Jesus people did not understand the concept of ego? There were plenty smart guys back then also (Socrates, Plato, Aristoteles). And even simple fishermen got it quickly.

It also was personified in Hindu Scriptures. Reason was maybe to make a nice story, easy to remember, with lots of details as to symbolise all the things that go on in human mind, to give insight in mind and tools to overcome attachment

To understand ego concept is very easy IMO. To give up ego is an entirely different story though.

I can agree that it would be difficult for the majority to give up ego. That is the characteristic of the ego. When "one" gives in to desire ego blossoms, when "one" gives up desires ego poofs

 

[stvdv]

View attachment 32631

lol

I pre selected that option, just in case Satan does exist and was man enough to accept my challenge, meaning I would be too dead to select that option afterwards.

So far He chickened out.

He still has 2h left before I defeated Him as being just a mental creation in some person mind, some thousands of years ago

(and I will deselect that option soon, I won't let imaginative Satan get to me; not a chance in Heaven)

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I don't think he'll show. You'd probably have better luck summoning Athe .

 

[stvdv]

I don't think he'll show. You'd probably have better luck summoning Athe .

Not sure about that either.

Even Google did not come up with something making sense if Athe

Is that a character in a "new" game not yet to Google?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Not sure about that either.

Even Google did not come up with something making sense if Athe

Is that a character in a "new" game not yet to Google?

It's a joke, I mean some people say atheists are religious, but who would they worship? This creates a need for a work of fiction, of atheists worshipping some goddess named Athe who doesn't care whether or not they believe in her.

 

[stvdv]

It's a joke, I mean some people say atheists are religious, but who would they worship? This creates a need for a work of fiction, of atheists worshipping some goddess named Athe who doesn't care whether or not they believe in her.

Great joke. You created it yourself @AT-AT ?

I did not get it, maybe Satan weakened me already, and I am about to lose the challenge

 

[susanblange]

I don't believe. I know Satan is real and as for your challenge; I really don't know what will happen. But apparently you've never heard the old saying that the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he doesn't exist. You must think the devil is stupid. If you were an actual threat to Satan or his plans then he wouldn't hesitate to kill you if he got the chance.

Suffice to say this is a pointless endeavor.

In the book of Job, "...the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life". Job 2:6. Satan makes an appearance in Heaven. As an angel he had a lot of power. The only limitation God put on Satan was that he couldn't kill Job and Messiah. What Satan did try to do was to get them to commit suicide. In the book of Job, Satan is called a "son of God". Job 1:6, 2:1. Adam the serpent is the only literal son of God. He has been reincarnated and he is the father of God. His new name is Christian Alexander Lange VI.

 

[stvdv]

It should have read "the mythical bad man".

Aha, that makes it more clear.

I never have considered Satan to be real, if I remember correctly.

But recently I saw quite a few threads on Satan, hence my Satan challenge.

Satan has been proven totally non existent.

After spending all this time reading about Satan in threads, I would have expected I might have have created myself a little Satan.

But Satan did not make it even into my dreams

Satan poofff

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

You created it yourself @AT-AT ?

It was spawned from various readings. @siti once spoke of Athe, then I looked up what Urbandictionary had to say.

I could be wrong, but I think the idea may come from some ancient Greek goddess though. But it has been rehashed since then I think.

 

[stvdv]

Satan is much more powerful than any human being

Your opinion !!!
Fact: Satan is more powerful than you (as per your belief, your words/opinion)

To say otherwise, is to say Satan is more powerful than your god!

And even worse. That person has given all his power away, in the hands of Satan now

 

[stvdv]

I don't believe. I know Satan is real

So:
1) You believe in God
2) You know Satan

Seems to me you ARE a Satanist now
(As per your own words; not mine; and a Strong Satanist claiming to know; it's not even belief anymore)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Yes, satan is under the authority of God and must have permission. It says as much in the scriptures. Yet, satan is allowed only to do that which accomplished God's ultimate good plan for His creation and for humanity to have a real and free choice in whom they will love and follow.

So your god-- with malice and evil intent-- deliberately permits Satan to do all the Evil things in the world?

Again-- your god is Evil, therefore-- even a hint of Evil, taints the whole thing...

Apparently, your god is so inept, it could not create Free Will without also creating Pure, Malicious Evil.

Wow.... is that incompetent or what?