Prove: Satan does (not) exist

[Bob the Unbeliever]

My thought, when reading @AT-AT, was that Jesus was fighting against his inner "demons". Nothing to do with Satan His own desires, fear, anger

Well, sure. But that's not what the verse actually says. I find I must go by what is written, not by what some person who is trying to excuse the "magic", says it "really says".

If you have to apologize for a piece of literature? It's not much good, IMO. An actual, Divine Inspiration, would stand on it's own, regardless of language, and need no Excuses written after the fact.

I expect Superior Workmanship from the actual Divine. I've yet to see a self-titled "holy" book that qualifies.

 

[stvdv]

Don't like any of the poll options but I voted 9 as it is closest to what I 'know' not believe.

Thank you.

I think I still can fill in 1 more option, number 10 (but not 100% sure). So if you have a good suggestion, I can still do that.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

This of course is one of those trick questions. No amount of "proof" will make anyone change their mind. Those who believe will continue to believe and those who do not believe will continue to not believe. Just like asking for "proof" of God.

 

[Nakosis]

Disclaimer:
1: All the below is my personal opinion in my quest for truth. I Can be wrong. No disrespect.
2: IF someone would argue "this thread is crazy", then I would argue "not half as crazy as allowing religious people claiming `all go to hell unless they have accepted Jesus` etc.etc."

Since 1 year I see several religious persons try to impose on me/others that a real Devil/Satan exists using words like "we know that Satan is doing ...." etc. Very friendly if they like to warn us. But if untrue, this is just a burden to our mind and really useless. They should say "IMHO, I know that Satan is doing ...".

Now I do understand Atheists when Theists claim "we know that God is doing ...." etc. Exactly the same. And many make even a combi out of the two, adding Jesus or maybe Muhammad sometimes.

Is there a way to prove that God or Satan exists? If not, is it fair to claim they exist? Without using IMHO, this can be seen as a kind of brainwashing and emotional indoctrination, which IMO is not a good thing. I think it is our duty to scientifically disprove false claims, especially, because creating fear is a great stress in humans, causing many problems.

To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

"Truth" or "Dare":
If Satan is out to "get us", then to prove this to be "Truth" I will "Dare" Satan to kill me tonight in between 22h and 06h. This is a one time offer. Not out of fear, but because of this above bold claim and me not being interested in wasting any more time with this Satan illusion (I have never considered Satan to be real, but being scientist, why not disprove this once and for all?). I am willing to sacrifice myself (to be killed) to Satan.

I did make a poll, to make it more scientific; if others like to join (not for the "faint of heart" of course).
And in the case Satan exists and kills all or some of the participants see Disclaimer below:
Disclaimer:
1) Whoever participates in the poll does so out of his/her own free will
2) RF (Religious Forums) nor anyone else can be held responsible or accountable

Beware: I do give Satan believers the benefit of the doubt. So I had to formulate the poll in a bit sinister way. Because in the case Satan is real (just to be complete), I will die, and won't be able to answer the poll.
* At 22h I select poll option 1/2: "I died, so Satan is true".
* At 06h I select poll option 3/4: "I died NOT, so Satan is false" + Deselect option 1/2:

Poll Question: I Dare Satan to kill me to prove He exists
Poll Options:
1: I died, so Satan is true
2: I died, so Satan might be true
3: I died NOT, so Satan is false
4: I died NOT, so Satan might be false
5: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch
6: I might participate maybe later
7: Satan won't take the challenge
8: I believe Satan exists
9: I believe Satan does not exist

Note 1: Satan should agree with 22h-06h time frame to make sure it's Satan and not coincidence.

Note 2: I will set the alarm to deselect "poll option 1" as soon as possible

Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility

I'm certain that Satan exists as a creation of the unconscious mind.

 

[stvdv]

So. If his god was 1/1,000,000,000 as powerful as this guy had claimed? I should be dead long ago.

I believe you.
Anyway if God is infinite powerful, then infinite/1,000,000,000 is still pretty powerful.
Or did you mean that you were really a bad boy?
Or did you mean that you failed all the needed qualifications? (I think all humans do)

The fact that he said such things, and was not struck dead himself? Tells me that "god" is just fine with his speech-- a self-appointed Speaker For God.

This whole Bible story never made much sense to me
God wants us to Love unconditional, while He seems to kill whosoever does not meet His conditions
I believe a real Teacher should set the right example. So somewhere "writing Bible" went wrong IMHO

In fact, I see that as strong proof that gods either don't care? Or don't exist.
Either way? I'm good.

gods either don't care
Or don't exist.
Or don't match the way "Scriptures describe it"
Or ....

 

[stvdv]

Oh, I repeated the challenge a number of times, promising to go live in a Theistic Monastery more than once. Or go into the ministry. Or similar.

Okay, you convinced me. That should be more than enough to get God moving IMO
You could try one more "Just stay an Atheist". It might be that God is fine with that
(and I am serious; meaning Atheism is not less than Theism)

 

[stvdv]

I'm certain that Satan exists as a creation of the unconscious mind.

I am certain that Satan exists as a creation of the "conscious mind". That for sure.
The unconscious mind, I never considered

If someone never contemplated Satan, never even heard the word, do you still think it would be in the "unconscious mind"?

 

[bobhikes]

Poll Options:
1: I died, so Satan is true
2: I died, so Satan might be true
3: I died NOT, so Satan is false
4: I died NOT, so Satan might be false
5: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch
6: I might participate maybe later
7: Satan won't take the challenge
8: I believe Satan exists
9: I believe Satan does not exist

My take on Satan, If Satan exists there are only 2 possibilities; God is not all powerful since Satan has the ability to steal souls and challenge God or God wants Satan to exist to test people so that they can overcome first sin and Satan is doing Gods works. The only other possibilities is either one or both do not exist.

 

[stvdv]

Well, sure. But that's not what the verse actually says. I find I must go by what is written, not by what some person who is trying to excuse the "magic", says it "really says".

If you have to apologize for a piece of literature? It's not much good, IMO. An actual, Divine Inspiration, would stand on it's own, regardless of language, and need no Excuses written after the fact.

I expect Superior Workmanship from the actual Divine. I've yet to see a self-titled "holy" book that qualifies.

Aha, I understand.

I already decided a long time ago, that the Bible is not 100% the word of God, due to too many inconsistencies and other stuff
Humans wrote it, hence it contains human errors. Even if the person was a prophet, errors can get in; IMO

So I can not go by Scriptures alone to "determine whether or not God is this or that"
(does not mean that I will ever be able to determine such a thing though; just that I can not claim to know anything for sure about God)

 

[Nakosis]

I am certain that Satan exists as a creation of the "conscious mind". That for sure.
The unconscious mind, I never considered

If someone never contemplated Satan, never even heard the word
You still think it would be in the "unconscious mind"?

Don't know. The unconscious gets in the way of our experience of reality. Hard to say how much of our experience is the result of reality and how much gets added by our unconscious mind.

The "truth" imo opinion is forever locked away from our conscious awareness. We have to rely on the interface to reality the unconscious mind creates for us. If our brains are defective/not wire properly I'm not sure we'd be able to be aware of it.

 

[stvdv]

An actual, Divine Inspiration, would stand on it's own, regardless of language, and need no Excuses written after the fact.

Divine Inspired need not be Truth IMO, unless the human who was inspired was 100% perfect. Even if Divine would incarnate on earth to write His own Scripture. The Divine could on purpose put in errors, just to make it a bit juicier.

I mean when I did exams, I also had to discard false answers in multiple choice questions.

I see "Spiritual Quest" like a school leading to an exam, for which I have to pass. I don't see it as a golden plate given to me, without the need to use my brains. We were given brains, to use, not to follow blindly some Scripture IMO.

But of course it could also be that the Divine gave 1 perfect Scripture, and the others were all a bit off. Just to create some (arrogant) emotions in the followers. Testing if "arrogance" could be tamed.

 

[stvdv]

I am certain that Satan exists as a creation of the "conscious mind". That for sure.
The unconscious mind, I never considered

If someone never contemplated Satan, never even heard the word
You still think it would be in the "unconscious mind"?

Don't know. The unconscious gets in the way of our experience of reality. Hard to say how much of our experience is the result of reality and how much gets added by our unconscious mind.

The "truth" imo opinion is forever locked away from our conscious awareness. We have to rely on the interface to reality the unconscious mind creates for us. If our brains are defective/not wire properly I'm not sure we'd be able to be aware of it.

Okay, now you switch to "truth".

I was only thinking of the word or concept "Satan". If that was never heard of, or thought of, it seems to me that the unconscious mind won't have it.

And for sure I agree, that there would be plenty of other defects in the unconsious mind to not experience the "Truth"

 

[nPeace]

Disclaimer:
1: All the below is my personal opinion in my quest for truth. I Can be wrong. No disrespect.
2: IF someone would argue "this thread is crazy", then I would argue "not half as crazy as allowing religious people claiming `all go to hell unless they have accepted Jesus` etc.etc."

Since 1 year I see several religious persons try to impose on me/others that a real Devil/Satan exists using words like "we know that Satan is doing ...." etc. Very friendly if they like to warn us. But if untrue, this is just a burden to our mind and really useless. They should say "IMHO, I know that Satan is doing ...".

Now I do understand Atheists when Theists claim "we know that God is doing ...." etc. Exactly the same. And many make even a combi out of the two, adding Jesus or maybe Muhammad sometimes.

Is there a way to prove that God or Satan exists? If not, is it fair to claim they exist? Without using IMHO, this can be seen as a kind of brainwashing and emotional indoctrination, which IMO is not a good thing. I think it is our duty to scientifically disprove false claims, especially, because creating fear is a great stress in humans, causing many problems.

To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

"Truth" or "Dare":
If Satan is out to "get us", then to prove this to be "Truth" I will "Dare" Satan to kill me tonight in between 22h and 06h. This is a one time offer. Not out of fear, but because of this above bold claim and me not being interested in wasting any more time with this Satan illusion (I have never considered Satan to be real, but being scientist, why not disprove this once and for all?). I am willing to sacrifice myself (to be killed) to Satan.

I did make a poll, to make it more scientific; if others like to join (not for the "faint of heart" of course).
And in the case Satan exists and kills all or some of the participants see Disclaimer below:
Disclaimer:
1) Whoever participates in the poll does so out of his/her own free will
2) RF (Religious Forums) nor anyone else can be held responsible or accountable

Beware: I do give Satan believers the benefit of the doubt. So I had to formulate the poll in a bit sinister way. Because in the case Satan is real (just to be complete), I will die, and won't be able to answer the poll.
* At 22h I select poll option 1/2: "I died, so Satan is true".
* At 06h I select poll option 3/4: "I died NOT, so Satan is false" + Deselect option 1/2:

Poll Question: I Dare Satan to kill me to prove He exists
Poll Options:
1: I died, so Satan is true
2: I died, so Satan might be true
3: I died NOT, so Satan is false
4: I died NOT, so Satan might be false
5: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch
6: I might participate maybe later
7: Satan won't take the challenge
8: I believe Satan exists
9: I believe Satan does not exist

Note 1: Satan should agree with 22h-06h time frame to make sure it's Satan and not coincidence.

Note 2: I will set the alarm to deselect "poll option 1" as soon as possible

Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility

A. According to the Bible, Satan is controlling this world, and is misleading earth's inhabitants.
B. According to most people, they seem to be no answer as to why man cannot achieve peace, which they so badly want, and it is evident that man is becoming more and more animal and loveless.
C. People don't seem to know the source of evil.
D. If God is, then God would know.
E. It is claimed that God is the author of the Bible, which is truth.

Earth's inhabitants seem to be misled, and driven by a selfish, loveless spirit.
A provides the answer to B, and C.
A is expected to be true, if E is true... an indication that there is no "if" in D
A seems to be true, therefore, we have no reason to doubt the truthfulness of A, nor E, nor D.

My logic.

 

[stvdv]

This of course is one of those trick questions. No amount of "proof" will make anyone change their mind. Those who believe will continue to believe and those who do not believe will continue to not believe. Just like asking for "proof" of God.

Are you sure about that?

How about someone identifying himself as "seeking"

Speaking for myself "as long as I believe, I am totally open for proof, so that I can change from belief to knowing"
I don't like "belief" at all, I prefer knowing.

 

[stvdv]

"Satan" is the name that God gave to the most wicked person he ever created who also had the most power (over God). The creation of Satan was a side effect of the creation of man. Adam the serpent became Satan and he was the son of God. He has been reincarnated as the father of God. He's in the family of God and he's the only one who could bring Messiah/God into the world. Satan is responsible for the "crucifixion" of the Messiah as a child. Satan will be tried, punished, and executed by God for this. Job 20:25, Isaiah 27:1. Satan was created as the antithesis of God, exactly the same, yet totally opposite. When Adam died and went to Heaven, his name was changed to Satan. He has been kicked out of Heaven and reincarnated.

Thank you for sharing. I never heard this version of Satan.
Adam needing to reincarnate again, makes sense as seen from my Hindu background

 

[stvdv]

My take on Satan, If Satan exists there are only 2 possibilities; God is not all powerful since Satan has the ability to steal souls and challenge God or God wants Satan to exist to test people so that they can overcome first sin and Satan is doing Gods works. The only other possibilities is either one or both do not exist.

Thank you for sharing.

I would go with your second option
If it were the first option, everything might spiral out of control (bad guy having more control than anything else)

 

[Nakosis]

Okay, now you switch to "truth". I was only thinking of the word or concept "Satan". If that was never heard of, or thought of, it seems to me that the unconscious mind won't have it. And for sure I agree, that there would be plenty of other defects in the unconsious mind to not experience the "Truth"

OIC, I suppose... Are you thinking, we created our own problem of Satan?

Hard to say what could have been. The idea of what causes men to do bad acts. For the "unenlightened" mind, something has to be blamed. I'd imagine something would have been created to blame evil on.

IMO, there is no evil. Just folks going about doing self destructive things. Their brain/mind is programmed wrong. I don't think we are capable of fixing our programming on our own.

I already did the Satan dare as a kid, like 13 maybe. Nothing happened. I suppose at that point I decided Satan had no power over me even if he did exist.

 

[Rise]

Your original post is based on a flawed premise - the assumption that satan is forced to respond to your challenge.
It's no different than those who think they can challenge God to prove Himself to them, as though they believe He is forced to accept their challenge and to do so on their terms.
You have no basis for believing you can force either of them to respond to you on your terms.

You also assume satan is able to do it if you invite him to. We know in the Bible satan is restrained from doing many things and won't be fully unrestrained until the end times tribulation period. So your assumption is based on a bad or incomplete understanding of the facts we know.

Your experiment is is not valid scientifically because it is based on flawed premises. Premises that are based on bad logic and wrong/incomplete information.

 

[InChrist]

This thread is great, I'm sure from Satan's perspective, whose number one goal is having people live in ignorance of his existence and/or methods....

1. Deny His Existence

One of the favorite ways in which Satan operates is to get people to deny that he exists. He seems to be most effective when people do not believe there is such a creature as the Devil. If he can get people to doubt his existence, then he can do much of his work without their knowing.
How Does Satan Keep Unbelievers in Spiritual Darkness?

 

[stvdv]

Thank you for sharing your view.

A. According to the Bible, Satan is controlling this world, and is misleading earth's inhabitants.
B. According to most people, they seem to be no answer as to why man cannot achieve peace, which they so badly want, and it is evident that man is becoming more and more animal and loveless.
C. People don't seem to know the source of evil.
D. If God is, then God would know.
E. It is claimed that God is the author of the Bible, which is truth.

Earth's inhabitants seem to be misled, and driven by a selfish, loveless spirit.
A provides the answer to B, and C.
A is expected to be true, if E is true... an indication that there is no "if" in D
A seems to be true, therefore, we have no reason to doubt the truthfulness of A, nor E, nor D.

My logic.

I love logic (most of the time), sometimes it is insufficient for me.

Just a few thoughts that were generated in me by reading your reply

A) Some verses in the Bible can be taken figuratively. Satan in control might "spiral things out of control"
B) From Hinduism and Buddhism I know there is an answer to achieve peace (roughly 1 billion)
C) That is a tricky one depending if one is in duality or non-duality or ...
D)
E) President Trump also claims a lot, but not all is true what he claims. But maybe even God is the author of Trump his mumbo jumbo[See D) ]

Are you sure "man is becoming more and more animal and loveless" ... ew have had people called barbarians in the past (seems better now in Holland at least)
Human evolving seems to go like waves (up/dn). But maybe in total slowly spiraling down
From Hinduism it is said Kali Yuga (worst time) just started (1% over now), so you might be right, that man is becoming more and more animal

The good thing is, that when we are aware of this fact, we can individually decide to step out of "animal kingdom" IMO

 

[stvdv]

OIC, I suppose... Are you thinking, we created our own problem of Satan?

Hard to say what could have been. The idea of what causes men to do bad acts. For the "unenlightened" mind, something has to be blamed. I'd imagine something would have been created to blame evil on.

IMO, there is no evil. Just folks going about doing self destructive things. Their brain/mind is programmed wrong. I don't think we are capable of fixing our programming on our own.

I already did the Satan dare as a kid, like 13 maybe. Nothing happened. I suppose at that point I decided Satan had no power over me even if he did exist.

Yes, I think we created our own problem of Satan
Yes, that is a very human habit to create something to blame evil on
Yes, that is exactly my thought also ... e.g. "Jesus died because of our sins" instead of "Jesus died for our sins" makes more sense to me
But I also totally understand, that after killing Jesus, it's not the favorite story to tell your kids, so their little twists I can understand
And once we are brainwashed for a few decades, it is indeed near to impossible to fix it on our own (also my experience ... evolution goes very slow)

Great you kicked Satan out, at such young age, fully aware. I did the "Jesus can't be the only one for all" when I was about 10 years old.
I did go to a Christian School. Must have been full with Satan, but maybe I was blocking Satan out. Satan never was part of my reality.