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Featured Prove: Satan does (not) exist

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by stvdv, Sep 4, 2019.

?
  1. 1: I died, so Satan is true

  2. 2: I died, so Satan might be true

  3. 3: I died NOT, so Satan is false

  4. 4: I died NOT, so Satan might be false

  5. 5: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch

  6. 6: I might participate maybe later

  7. 7: Satan won't take the challenge

  8. 8: I believe Satan exists

  9. 9: I believe Satan does not exist

  10. 10: I believe Satan is symbolic

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Disclaimer:
    1: All the below is my personal opinion in my quest for truth. I Can be wrong. No disrespect.
    2: IF someone would argue "this thread is crazy", then I would argue "not half as crazy as allowing religious people claiming `all go to hell unless they have accepted Jesus` etc.etc."


    Since 1 year I see several religious persons try to impose on me/others that a real Devil/Satan exists using words like "we know that Satan is doing ...." etc. Very friendly if they like to warn us. But if untrue, this is just a burden to our mind and really useless. They should say "IMHO, I know that Satan is doing ...".

    Now I do understand Atheists when Theists claim "we know that God is doing ...." etc. Exactly the same. And many make even a combi out of the two, adding Jesus or maybe Muhammad sometimes.

    Is there a way to prove that God or Satan exists? If not, is it fair to claim they exist? Without using IMHO, this can be seen as a kind of brainwashing and emotional indoctrination, which IMO is not a good thing. I think it is our duty to scientifically disprove false claims, especially, because creating fear is a great stress in humans, causing many problems.

    To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

    So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

    "Truth" or "Dare":
    If Satan is out to "get us", then to prove this to be "Truth" I will "Dare" Satan to kill me tonight in between 22h and 06h. This is a one time offer. Not out of fear, but because of this above bold claim and me not being interested in wasting any more time with this Satan illusion (I have never considered Satan to be real, but being scientist, why not disprove this once and for all?). I am willing to sacrifice myself (to be killed) by Satan.

    I did make a poll, to make it more scientific; if others like to join (not for the "faint of heart" of course).
    And in the case Satan exists and kills all or some of the participants see Disclaimer below:

    Disclaimer:
    1) Whoever participates in the poll does so out of his/her own free will
    2) RF (Religious Forums) nor anyone else can be held responsible or accountable


    Beware: I do give Satan believers the benefit of the doubt. So I had to formulate the poll in a bit sinister way. Because in the case Satan is real (just to be complete), I will die, and won't be able to answer the poll.
    * At 22h I select poll option 1/2: "I died, so Satan is true".
    * At 06h I select poll option 3/4: "I died NOT, so Satan is false" + Deselect option 1/2::D

    Poll Question: I Dare Satan to kill me to prove He exists
    Poll Options:
    01: I died, so Satan is true
    02: I died, so Satan might be true
    03: I died NOT, so Satan is false
    04: I died NOT, so Satan might be false
    05: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch
    06: I might participate maybe later
    07: Satan won't take the challenge
    08: I believe Satan exists
    09: I believe Satan does not exist
    10: I believe Satan is symbolic

    Note 1: Satan should agree with 22h-06h time frame to make sure it's Satan and not coincidence.

    Note 2: I will set the alarm to deselect "poll option 1" as soon as possible

    Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility
     
    #1 stvdv, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  2. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    Or option 7) Satan doesn't give a flying **** about you or your needs.
     
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  3. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    I still think when Jesus rebuked Satan, he was rebuking his lower self since he, Jesus, was in human form.
     
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  4. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    This might be addressed after having established whether Satan exists or not
     
    #4 stvdv, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    That idea always made much more sense to me. Taking our own responsibility. Put in some Self Effort.
     
  6. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    I have taken this "challenge" decades ago. Back when I was on Topix, I had a "Yer Gunna HELL" commentator who every day, would declare that various of us non-theists were "Gunna HELL!" in most emphatic terms.

    I challenged him, in return: I placed a small paper clip next to my monitor (really, on it's base). I challenged him to pray that his god would move the clip off onto the floor. I correctly pointed out that his own Matthew promised that anything asked in the (apparently magic) name of Jesus, would be granted-- and was moving a 3 gram clip all that difficult for a Universe-creating god?

    He, naturally, refused to pray the prayer-- for he understood on some level, his god was absolutely impotent-- what with being mythic and all that.

    So I went a step further: I challenged his god to strike me dead this instant. That challenge, and subsequent ones, remain open.

    I'm not dead.

    Ergo, his god has no power.

    In truth, I see the biblical Satan (or as he spelt it, "Satin" ... yeah.... I know) as synonymous with the biblical god. The two are either the same being, or else one must be subservient to the other, and therefore, it's Agent Provocateur.

    So yeah...... As Mary, Queen of Scots was purported to have said? "I'm not dead yet."

    P.S. That clip? Is still there... it's quite dusty at the present time-- having been there since about 2006...
     
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  7. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    So, Satan is an Agent of God? Okay-- I have always thought as much, within the biblical narrative.

    Satan pretty much had to be God's Agent all along-- doing God's Bidding, exactly.

    It's often been said, that no angel or even a "fallen" angel, could possess Free Will.

    Thus, the "fall" had to be All According To Plan.

    Which, of course, makes God into something of a Bully.
     
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Thanks for sharing your experiences
    I like people who Dare challenge God
    Wisdom only comes from personal experience
    Not reading alone IMO

    Always best to challenge God, as He challenges us to "blindly believe" (according Bible)

    That seems a good challenge, unless God does not want you to die
    I have learned I should go to the Bakery to get bread
    So go to Satan to die (I think)
    Hinduism calls it Yama

    Maybe you better try Hindu God "Yama" (you can't blame me when it works out:D)
    Or "his god" was a bit more benevolent than you thought:)

    But still I believe it is important to address to the right "person"
     
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  9. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Went a little over my head. Seems like you have a premise that's at least 50 percent right from a certain perspective, but a conclusion that went over my head.
     
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Caritas Christi Urget Nos
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    I don't believe Satan is a real entity. At most, it's a useful archetype of our shadow side as well as rebellion and individuality.
     
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  11. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I think you gave God enough time

    When I challenge God I put something in return
    For example I would challenge God "Make my clip disappear, and I will go 1 week fasting"
    I mean, all Scriptures declare that God loves to be challenged, but sacrifice your desires he loves the best
     
  12. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Anyways, I don't think this challenge will work. Now if you got an ouija board and started daring the spirits, something might happen, but there's no proof such things are the same thing as a Biblical Satan character. In fact, it may prove otherwise to an extent.
     
  13. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    My thought, when reading @AT-AT, was that Jesus was fighting against his inner "demons". Nothing to do with Satan. His own desires, fear, anger
     
    #13 stvdv, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  14. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
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  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Yes, I know. I got the idea of this thread, after reading your reply somewhere about your view on Satan (not existing in "Germanic religion")
     
  16. susanblange

    susanblange Active Member

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    "Satan" is the name that God gave to the most wicked person he ever created who also had the most power (over God). The creation of Satan was a side effect of the creation of man. Adam the serpent became Satan and he was the son of God. He has been reincarnated as the father of God. He's in the family of God and he's the only one who could bring Messiah/God into the world. Satan is responsible for the "crucifixion" of the Messiah as a child. Satan will be tried, punished, and executed by God for this. Job 20:25, Isaiah 27:1. Satan was created as the antithesis of God, exactly the same, yet totally opposite. When Adam died and went to Heaven, his name was changed to Satan. He has been kicked out of Heaven and reincarnated.
     
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  17. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Don't like any of the poll options but I voted 9 as it is closest to what I 'know' not believe.
     
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  18. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    If the god of that long-distant Topix poster is real? It would certainly have struck me dead, long ago.

    Just going by a literal bible approach: The bible's god is described as "jealous" and is unwilling to let even the slightest of things go, i.e. the woman being turned into salt, the Ba'al prophets being consumed by fire, the unruly children being eaten by bears, the poor slob who only wanted to prevent the Ark from taking a tumble, and was killed for his troubles.

    So. If his god was 1/1,000,000,000 as powerful as this guy had claimed? I should be dead long ago.

    The fact that he said such things, and was not struck dead himself? Tells me that "god" is just fine with his speech-- a self-appointed Speaker For God.

    In fact, I see that as strong proof that gods either don't care? Or don't exist.

    Either way? I'm good.
     
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  19. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    It simply goes back to the ever-constant claim that God is the Ultimate Power in the Universe.

    If that is true? Then, Satan cannot have Ultimate Power-- in fact, any power Satan does possess? Is with the Permission of God-- who does. Thus, God granting Satan permission, means Satan is simply God's Agent. Satan can only do as God allows.

    That puts everything Satan does, back onto God.

    And it's even worse! If God knows the one and only Future? Satan cannot actually do anything, without God having seen it already, and by not stopping Satan? God must have wanted that to happen exactly as it unfolded. How could it be otherwise?

    Thus: Everything Satan did or does? Is Part Of God's Plan. Has to be.

    The only way it could be otherwise? Would be if Satan was either more powerful than God, or at a minimum, Equally Powerful.

    Such that God was unable to See the Future unfold-- unless God is surprised (at the future)? The Future is Fixed.

    This is a Classic Free Will argument, and it goes to established that either God cannot know the Future (and is not, in fact, All Knowing or All Powerful), so Free Will is preserved. Or there cannot be Free Will for anything-- not even Satan.
     
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  20. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I repeated the challenge a number of times, promising to go live in a Theistic Monastery more than once. Or go into the ministry. Or similar.

    The clip never moved: Proof, as far as I'm concerned, that either god does not give a sh--- or god simply isn't powerful enough (due to suffering from a case of 'not existing'... )
     
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