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Featured Protestant and Catholic theological differences.

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Blake Place, Sep 13, 2020.

  1. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    No...actually Anne and Joachim did conceive Mary naturally.
    Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with virginity or intercourse. It means the girl was born without the stain of original sin.

    As for your questions, you are right: there is no biblical evidence of these 2 dogmas. Immaculate Conception and Assumption. In fact they are very recent (1854 and 1950)
     
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  2. Blake Place

    Blake Place Kryptic

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    How does that make you feel? Is that an issue for you? Having these concepts fleshed out much later, why was this not done in the first century for example?
     
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  3. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    The RCC also has acknowledged, across centuries Mary's apparitions (not all of them).

    Maybe these Marian dogmas are either intuitions/revelations.
    In the Gospel of James, Joachim promises God to consecrate his child to Him, if he had made Anne's womb fertile. Maybe this means God preserved Mary from original sin...I don't know...
     
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  4. Blake Place

    Blake Place Kryptic

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    I'd love your comment on an argument i kind of made off the cuff.

    "In the bible it would be common for the word 'knew' when speaking of a marriage to mean to consummate the marriage and have children.

    In Mathew 1:24-25 it says "24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus."

    Other passages with the term knew, all throughout genesis for example showing the lineage, shows the term knew, and then it would say their children that came out of this union.
    The other strange part of scripture that could show this would be

    Mark 6:2-4 "2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” "


    I'm not trying to take away from the significance of Mary, although i'd like to see her through the lens of scripture as that's all the recorded information we have of her life from birth to passing.
    We know that in the gospel of John, as Jesus is on the cross he is telling mary and john that they are now mother and son, in a formal way explaining to john to look after Mary... John is also the only apostle to not only not die due to martyr, but die of old age.

    John 19:26-27 "26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.""
     
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  5. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    There are instances where the NT is silent, in the literal sense, concerning the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. The last mention of Mary is before Pentecost Scripture says nothing concerning her death and after. Her bodily assumption to heaven
    reflects belief that the resurrection look toward by all Christians was first given to the first disciple. I am not familiar with any tradition of Mary's mother having a virgin birth.
    There is also the tradition of Mary' s perpetual virginity, again nothing in Scripture states that. It is based on a 2nd century of Protevangelium of James, mostly a work of fiction.
     
  6. GardenLady

    GardenLady Member

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    Regarding Mary being conceived without sin, as I understand it, the idea is that she was the new Ark of the Covenant, the God-bearer, and had to be a sinless vessel to fulfill that roll.

    The claim of perpetual virginity seems more excessive to me than the Immaculate Conception, especially given scriptural references to Jesus’ brothers. Some Catholic theologians with say the text can also be interpreted as cousins. Sure. The Catholic Church has long had issues with the sexuality of women, even within marriage. Holy crap, some Catholics will even argue about whether Jesus’ birth ruptured her hymen. Insane.

    I am no longer a Catholic, and excessive Maryology was a (minor) factor.

    Excess and straying into idolatry are the big issues in my view. And I think the Catholic church has at least stepped on that line and many individual Catholics, especially in Latin countries, have stepped over it.
     
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  7. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    The idea that you inherit sin itself (not merely that we suffer consequences of that sin, but we are actually guilty of the sin itself) is at the crux of this issue. While there can be no doubt that the consequences of sin are felt throughout creation via Adam (and thus also Christ's, the second Adam's, actions are similarly far reaching) we are not responsible for or to be condemned for Adam's sin (nor are we to be praised as if we ourselves died on the cross for the sins of man).

    Similarly, this is at the heart of such bad theology and practices as Baptizing Infants

    See Ezekiel 18
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The differences go far beyond just Mary. The differences go even to the roots of organisation of society. Catholics do believe in the immaculate conception, and that Mary was almost deified as the theotokos, while also there is a pope who is democratically elected to lead a people while in the protestant christianity none of these things exist. The differences lies in the threat of losing authority. Thats why millions of people died in the reformation.
     
  9. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Hi Blake,

    I'm in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are neither Catholic nor Protestant.

    But I was just thinking the Bible says, "Blessed art thou among women," to Mary.
     
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  10. GardenLady

    GardenLady Member

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    The Catholic view of baptism, also shared by the Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran churches, etc. is a sacramental view, not a “believer baptism view.” In seeing baptism as a sacrament, the belief is that it is God who acts, not the person being baptized. In baptism, we are adopted into the Body of Christ, forgiven, endowed with grace and the Holy Spirit to grow in faith and live a Christian life. The adult and the infant bring the same thing to baptism—only our human brokenness.
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hello and welcome. :)

    Nowhere in scripture is Mary assigned any special role apart from being the womb that carried God's son to his human birth. And since the father figure was also a very important role in Jewish family life, Joseph played no small role either. Being a devout Jewish couple they were selected to be the parents who would raise this special child. Jesus was 100% human, but conceived without sin by the intervention of God's holy spirit. God basically implanted the lifeforce of his already existing son, into the womb of this wonderful woman, who accepted her role with grace and humility. Joseph too, upon finding out that his betrothed was 'with child' did not broadcast it, but out of respect for her, was intent on divorcing her secretly because of not wanting to cast aspersions on a woman he knew to be virtuous. It was God who revealed to Joseph that Mary's child was the product of holy spirit, not fornication. He was then more than willing to take Mary as his wife, but did not have relations with her until after Jesus was born. They thereafter became parents to four more boys as well as to at least two sisters. Jewish families were large and each child was considered a blessing from God.

    Abraham proved by his actions that he was a loyal worshipper of his God, at a time when there was no nation of Israel....no formal worship, no scripture, or temple and no priesthood. As one of the original Patriarchs, his life course and his unshakable faith were rewarded with a promise....that his family line would produce the promised Messiah. Both Mary and Joseph (who was assumed to be Jesus' natural father) were descendants of Abraham.

    Mary did not have to be sinless in order to give birth to a sinless child. Mary and Joseph both made an offering at the temple according to the law, which stated...."‘If, though, he cannot afford a sheep, he must bring to Jehovah two turtledoves or two young pigeons as his guilt offering for the sin, one for a sin offering and one for a burnt offering." (Leviticus 5:7)

    Now, Mary and Joseph, being of little means, offered the two turtle doves as the law required...one was for a sin offering, showing that Mary herself was not sinless.

    Luke 2:21-24....
    "After eight days, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived.

    22 Also, when the time came for purifying them according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to Jehovah, 23 just as it is written in Jehovah’s Law: “Every firstborn male must be called holy to Jehovah.” 24 And they offered a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of Jehovah: “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.


    It also demonstrates that the so-called "wise men" had not visited the newborn Jesus at the stable because they made the offering of the poor, and the "magi" gave them 'gold, frankincense and myrrh'. It also states that these men followed the star until it stopped above the "house" where Jesus now lived with his parents. (Matthew 2:9-11)

    It is very interesting that all the titles given to Mary were also the same titles that were given to pagan mother goddesses, which go back to Babylon and Egypt. "Our Lady" and "Queen of Heaven" were not "Christian" titles at all.
    From The New Encyclopædia Britannica: “Veneration of the mother of God received its impetus when the Christian Church became the imperial church under Constantine and the pagan masses streamed into the church. . . . Their piety and religious consciousness had been formed for millennia through the cult of the ‘great mother’ goddess and the ‘divine virgin,’ a development that led all the way from the old popular religions of Babylonia and Assyria.”
    What better place could there be than Ephesus for the “Christianization” of mother-goddess worship?

    [​IMG] It was nothing new....

    [​IMG]

    No....the woman is not the one who crushes the serpent's head. The woman in the prophesy is the one who bore the seed who crushes him, but not before the devil deals the promised on a painful heel wound. (Genesis 3:15)
    The woman is not Mary. The seed is from heaven, not the earth.

    There is so much to discuss.....:D
     
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  12. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Forgiveness requires repentance - which we do, not God. Nor should we need to ask forgiveness for sins we did not commit. An infant can neither repent nor does an infant need to repent and be forgiven.
     
  13. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Actually we have two Baptisms. The second is called Confirmation and in fact "confirms" the baptism performed after birth.
    Normally children reveive this sacrament after the last year of catechism school. 11-12 year old children.
     
  14. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I’m aware - but having a second baptism doesn’t justify Infant Baptism. It’s a spiritually void and fundamentally flawed practice.
     
  15. Blake Place

    Blake Place Kryptic

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    Yeah Mary is many things in scripture, i'm not taking away from her in the scriptural sense, just wondering why tradition of catholics has added so much that is simply not only not found in scripture, but muddies the water on what substantial things Christ has done, if Christ is not the only sinless person to exist, that means that Mary has also fulfilled the laws of moses.
     
  16. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Ash nazg durbatulûk

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    I don't understand the objection. Reconsigning the unique privilege of Mary as having been preserved from sin is in no way a detraction from our recognition of Christ as Lord and Savoiur. Mary is unique because of who she was destined to conceive. We exalt Mary precisely because we exalt Christ. To denigrate one is to denigrate the other.
     
  17. Blake Place

    Blake Place Kryptic

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    Yeah exactly, if there needs to be someone sinless to give birth to more sinlessness, then why did Mary's mother not require this? Why did Mary's mother not require to be anything special? Scripture doesn't show if she was righteous, where it specifically does for Mary.
     
  18. Blake Place

    Blake Place Kryptic

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    I was just mentioning that there is a specific name for the concept of Mary being born without sin, although no such name is afforded to the second person of the trinity. it was a minor detail.
     
  19. Blake Place

    Blake Place Kryptic

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    We respond to repentance because of the initiation of Grace and sacrifice that was afforded to us out of love from God. We are not initiating repentance.
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if the protestants moved further from the RC when the idea of getting all doctrine from the Bible developed more.
    It is interesting to wonder where many of the traditions of the RC church came from.
    It is tradition turned into dogma that had to be believed to be a Catholic which is one thing that turned me away from the RC church. It is sort of like adding to the gospel message.
    I don't think that one of those traditions is that the mother of Mary was a virgin however. That would mean that Jesus had no blood link to David at all and could not be his descendant.
     
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