Protestant and Catholic theological differences.

[metis]

In regards to the supposed inerrancy of the Bible, which of today's Bible translations is supposedly "inerrant"? Oh, the original manuscripts were, some say. Well, we don't have any of the original manuscripts.

Secondly, taking the inerrant viewpoint gets quite close to being a form of idolatry because it elevates an object [the Bible in this case] to the Divine level. As Catholics, we don't do that with any object, including statuary just to be clear.

The Bible is about God but isn't God.

 

[thomas t]

The Bible is about God but isn't God.

it's from God.
No idolatry involved.
There are perfect meals, perfect goals (soccer), perfect looking girls, perfect situations, perfect poems... and so on... so you say an almighty God is to be incable of presenting perfect scripture?

 

[metis]

I am not presumptuous enough so as to think that I can read God's "mind" or speak for Him. Scientific approaches don't allow for us to do that, nor to draw conclusions based exclusively on pre-determined assumptions. Nor do we believe in idolatry, and calling the Bible "perfect" is a form of that.

 

[thomas t]

I am not presumptuous enough so as to think that I can read God's "mind" or speak for Him.

well I am not presumtuous enough to do this either.
For me, calling the Bible flawed... is equivalent to criticizing God.

Calling the Bible perfect is in no way idolatry.
A perfect goal isn't idolatry either. Some goals in soccer happen to be perfect. That's how it is.

 

[pearl]

There are perfect meals, perfect goals (soccer), perfect looking girls, perfect situations, perfect poems... and so on... so you say an almighty God is to be incable of presenting perfect scripture?

God mediates through humans, who are not perfect.
Of first importance is to know Scripture, followed by at least some knowledge of how Scripture was compiled, when was it officially recognized as Sacred Scripture? etc.

 

[thomas t]

God mediates through humans, who are not perfect.

these imperfect humans can look perfect (some girls do), or score perfect goals (like in soccer sometimes).
So why should they be unable to be the ones who pass a perfect Bible?
If God can manage that some goals in soccer are perfect... and remember, the players are imperfect... then he is also able to let them redact a perfect Bible, I say.

 

[pearl]

If God can manage that some goals in soccer are perfect.

I didn't know God played soccer, dose He have a favorite team?
I believe God has given us the possibility of becoming perfectly human, not humanly perfect.

then he is also able to let them redact a perfect Bible, I say.

That's the guidance of the Holy Spirit who continues to teach, inspire, not dictate. And the Gospels were formed in stages, not a one time beginning and end, penned by anonymous authors, names later attributed by the Church. The Bible is truth in its wholeness not in every line. Jesus gave us the 'Our Father' yet the Gospels do not agree on the wording. Did one sacred writer add to it or did one eliminate part of it?

 

[thomas t]

I didn't know God played soccer, dose He have a favorite team?

God created the teams and the game.
Perfect soccer goals exist. They are not planned by man they just happen. God makes it possible, I believe. here are a few:

The Bible is truth in its wholeness not in every line.

according to you.
Yet these goals (see above) in soccer are perfect in every detail. So why would Go fail to do the same with Bible?
When imperfect soccer players can score like this... an almighty God will be able to do the same providing His scripture...

Thomas

 

[metis]

That's the guidance of the Holy Spirit who continues to teach, inspire, not dictate.

And this is spot-on to the point that it needs repeating, imo.

We have to remember that the Holy Spirit was at work long before the scriptures were written, thus logically being even of more importance. Since the apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit even before the NT was even written, it's the Holy Spirit that should be our main driving force within our faith, imo.

Thus, even if we didn't have the scriptures, the Holy Spirit itself should be able to guide us at least in the right direction, and that right direction imo is Jesus' message of "love one another as I have loved you".

May you and all reading this have a Most Blessed Lord's Day.

 

[pearl]

May you and all reading this have a Most Blessed Lord's Day.

And you and yours also.

 

[Brian2]

Regarding the first paragraph quoted above, it's important to understand the concept of the communion of saints that is espoused by Catholic, Orthodox, and so-called "mainstream Protestant" churches -- those that accept the Apostle's Creed. In the communion of saints are the both pilgrims on earth AND those in heaven who are alive in Christ. Asking a saint in heaven to pray for me is no different from asking you to pray for me. Are there abuses? Yes. There are those who speak as though they are praying TO saints instead of asking saints for pray for them. That is wrong. I cannot see the hearts and souls of these people and do not know if it is a case of imprecise language or incorrect intent. For myself, I was always VERY uncomfortable with the Catholic views on purported Marian apparitions. But I will say that, AFAIK, the words ascribed to her generally pointed to Jesus.

Regarding divisions between Protestants and Catholics getting wider...Let me preface my observations by noting that I have left the Catholic church and belong to an ELCA Lutheran parish. Let me also state my belief that the term "Protestant" is so vague as to be useless. The Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian -- so-called "mainstream Protestant" churches are very, very different from the fundamentalist/evangelical churches, especially the thousands of flavors of them in the US. To say "Protestants do this or believe that" is almost always incorrect because Protestant belief and practice is highly diverse. I see a rise in cooperation and non-condemnation between some "mainstream" Protestant churches and the Catholic Church, such as the Catholic-Lutheran "Joint Statement on Justification by Faith." But it is limited. In my Lutheran parish, we do pray in every service for "the unity of all." Sadly, I have seen virulent condemnation on both sides between Catholics and fundamentalists/evangelicals.

One of my main gripes with the Catholic Church is the things that have been added to the faith over the years and must be believed to be a legitimate Catholic. Things added by the Pope ex cathedra.

 

[Brian2]

Both Mary and Joseph had a link to David.

True but Joseph was a step father and Mary was the one that supplied the bloodline.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2 good to meet you... I add to your post.... To be in Protest they the Protestant MUST reject the Holy Catholic Church otherwise they have no excuse for trying to "Form anew" the Church Jesus built on rock not on sand! Protestant's MUST believe Jesus failed to establish a church, that they NEED to come to Jesus' rescue to form what Jesus lost! AS IF...
Brian2 as if Satan somehow overpowered Jesus that Satan took from Jesus his holy body and that Jesus could not establish his Holy Church because he lost it to Satan! They believe that they must come to the God' rescue to RE-FORM what Jesus lost!

The Protestant MUST reject the scriptures... to remain in PROTEST against the One Church Jesus built on ROCK not on sand!
Scriptures that say.. "Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his church to the end of time"
Scriptures that say.. "Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to guide his church into ALL Truth!"
Scriptures that say.. "The Holy Spirit with come to remain FOREVER with his church"!
Scriptures that say.. “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.!”
Scriptures that say.. "My flesh is real food, my blood is real drink"!
Scriptures that say.. "3000 were ADDED top the body of Jesus by Baptism"!

I think the Catholic Church did go down hill in it's practices and it was the work of the Holy Spirit to renew the Church through the Reformation and to open the Bible for all people. The OT Jews also needed reform at times, but this did not necessitate a withdrawal from Israel. The Reformation needed to withdraw because there could be no reformation from within at that point.
This Reformation of course has also been attacked by Satan.
But Jesus is always with His church, whether Catholic or Protestant and is always guiding it corporately and individually. But this does not mean we listen to that guidance.
It probably comes down to a broader view of what the Church, the Body of Christ is than to just see it as an institution.

 

[Brian2]

Early USA goes through a long period of dreary, long agricultural life in which many are so busy all the time that they don't have time for things like sports or going to libraries and cannot afford books. They might have had only a bible, and they are scraping out a life just surviving. They have no conveniences and must work constantly. Out of this arises many bible-only cultures which insist that everything should come from the B I B L E. I think this is where the churches completely depart from tradition.

That isn't the whole story. There are also the Quakers coming from Europe who throw almost everything away wholesale. Its not the entire story, but its where this bible-only assumption comes from. When all you've got is a bible you tend to think its got everything.

Maybe.
It certainly is more than just reading a book. The Holy Spirit/ Jesus with us, has to be there also so that we can get to know God and what He wants from us and what loving means for us in this changing world.

 

[metis]

One of my main gripes with the Catholic Church is the things that have been added to the faith over the years and must be believed to be a legitimate Catholic.

There is no such thing as a "legitimate Catholic". Never once in attending mass for over 50 years have I ever heard such terminology.

As Catholics, we have the right of personal discernment, probably even more so than most of our Protestant brothers & sisters have since they have split into thousands of denominations over the centuries.

Things added by the Pope ex cathedra.

Rarely used, and there's a process that a pope must follow that involves a general consensus of the bishops worldwide, plus it can't be contradicted by scripture.

 

[metis]

I think the Catholic Church did go down hill in it's practices and it was the work of the Holy Spirit to renew the Church through the Reformation and to open the Bible for all people...

It probably comes down to a broader view of what the Church, the Body of Christ is than to just see it as an institution.

But it was an "institution" created by Christ and his apostles whom appointed successors to form the "one body", as Paul claimed it to be.

The word "church" is used 109 times in the NT, and the only reference to it being used in the plural is when it was referring to local churches in affiliation as being part of that "one body". This is why Paul had to meet with the Twelve periodically so as to make certain they were on the same page.

And it was this same "one body" that chose the canon of the Bible in the 4th century that you use. The Bible did not choose itself, and the debate over which books were to be included was quite contentious, and it took over 1/2 a century to conclude it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Maybe.
It certainly is more than just reading a book. The Holy Spirit/ Jesus with us, has to be there also so that we can get to know God and what He wants from us and what loving means for us in this changing world.

What I have found is that God doesn't feel responsible for my views of the bible. All of my life, ever since I was twelve, I struggled to understand the things I had read in its books. No one could help me. I prayed for a better understanding of the gospel, of the relationship between God and Jesus. I wanted to know why the churches had made such terrible mistakes and why I was stuck researching the meaning in this book. How did God respond to my begging? First of all had all, I was unworthy to be given such a high calling. I was a pompous little ****. If God had responded by revealing so much truth to me I would only have hurt myself and others. So instead I was on a long, stupid journey to find out my own faults and to have a miserable life.

 

[Dogknox20]

I think the Catholic Church did go down hill in it's practices and it was the work of the Holy Spirit to renew the Church through the Reformation and to open the Bible for all people. The OT Jews also needed reform at times, but this did not necessitate a withdrawal from Israel. The Reformation needed to withdraw because there could be no reformation from within at that point.
This Reformation of course has also been attacked by Satan.
But Jesus is always with His church, whether Catholic or Protestant and is always guiding it corporately and individually. But this does not mean we listen to that guidance.
It probably comes down to a broader view of what the Church, the Body of Christ is than to just see it as an institution.

Brian2 thank you for your post... I reply.. To your words... and to open the Bible for all people. It is just this "The bible being the ONLY way" results in the many thousands of protesting churches all claiming to have the only truth but not even two of these thousands believe the same things, the "Bible Alone" it the root cause of all the chaos! Satan is the father of Chaos not God!

Brian2 The Catholic Church was built by Jesus no other church was built on ROCK! Jesus tells us.. "Listen to the Church or be treated as a pagan" a Pagan is OUTSIDE of God' family! Jesus tells us in the bible.. "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you.. (Protests against you) rejects me and God!"
The early Church ate the Flesh of Jesus "Eucharist" the Catholic Church still does today!
The Church Jesus established "Baptized infants" the Catholic Church still does today!
The Early Church "removed or retained sins" guess what the One Church Jesus established still does to this day! The fact is: The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church was formed long before the bible this Book; the Bible is the work of the Catholic Church! You have to accept the Catholic Church was guided by the Holy Spirit in deciding the inspired letters or toss your bible out the window if you Protest against her!
There were NO bibles of any great number for the first 1700 years... It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established that brought Jesus and salvation to the world! She PREACHED Jesus to the world! Even the bible was available most people could not read, they needed to be TAUGH about Jesus so much for "Bible Alone"!
People started to learn to read because it was the Catholic Church that started the schools and University in Europe! It was the Catholic Church that started Orphanages it was the Catholic Church that people went to for help it was not the government, she was the welfare for the people! By far the Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world today.

 

[Dogknox20]

What I have found is that God doesn't feel responsible for my views of the bible. All of my life, ever since I was twelve, I struggled to understand the things I had read in its books. No one could help me. I prayed for a better understanding of the gospel, of the relationship between God and Jesus. I wanted to know why the churches had made such terrible mistakes and why I was stuck researching the meaning in this book. How did God respond to my begging? First of all had all, I was unworthy to be given such a high calling. I was a pompous little ****. If God had responded by revealing so much truth to me I would only have hurt myself and others. So instead I was on a long, stupid journey to find out my own faults and to have a miserable life.

Brickjectivity it is a pleasure to meet you...By your comment I see you were searching for truth and are still looking! It is the man made tradition of "All we need is the bible; Bible ALONE" that forces you to search! It forces you ALONE to become the expert in scriptures for example; if you go to your pastor for his interpretation then the Bible is NOT alone, It becomes "Bible PLUS Pastor!" The idea of all man needs is the scriptures is NOT logical and NOT biblical! Jesus formed a TEACHING CHURCH he gave his AUTHORITY to his church built on rock to TEACH ALL NATIONS!
Brickjectivity You want the truth?! Then find the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established before he ascended into heaven! This body of Jesus guided by the Holy Spirit into ALL TRUTH has the truth; she is the expert! She alone was established by Jesus and She alone Jesus promised to be ALWAYS WITH to the very end of the world!!

 

[Brian2]

There is no such thing as a "legitimate Catholic". Never once in attending mass for over 50 years have I ever heard such terminology.

As Catholics, we have the right of personal discernment, probably even more so than most of our Protestant brothers & sisters have since they have split into thousands of denominations over the centuries.

Rarely used, and there's a process that a pope must follow that involves a general consensus of the bishops worldwide, plus it can't be contradicted by scripture.

Yes the terminology is mine and means that is someone came to the Catholic Church to be baptised as a Catholic there would be "ex cathedra" proclamations that would have to be believed (on top of the gospel message) for that person to be baptised into the CC. These ex cathedra proclamations are dogmas iow and must be believed as far as I am aware.