Protest in Michigan Today Over Lockdown

[Shaul]

Yes. I see this sort of thing and I am disgusted by your president.
Governor accuses Trump of stoking violence and 'fomenting domestic rebellion'

Is this what national leadership looks like, in modern America?

President Trump hasn’t fomented violence. There is no evidence to support such a ludicrous claim.

Yes, President Trump is displaying leadership. He is at work implementing policies which actually work. Others are sniping from the cheap seats, or I dare say from foreign shores, with unreasoned pablum.

The death rate in the U.S. from COVID-19 is 62 per million. In the U.K. it is 150 per million. In other words the death rate in your country is two and a half times what it is here. Maybe you should examine your own country’s leadership, or rather lack thereof, before criticizing the U.S.A.

 

[Shaul]

To you, I don't doubt, but to that group carrying out that demo, I think it is clear from the link I supplied they were very relevant. Your governor may have been inconsistent (who hasn't been, at some point during this crisis?), but inconsistency in an evolving crisis can't be compared to a president stirring up people against the very control measures advocated by his own epidemic advisers and sanctioned by the president himself.

He is quite transparently getting the state governors to take the flak for all the hard decisions on controlling the outbreak, while trying to associate himself with those opposing them, so he can be popular when the controls are lifted. What a creep.

This is not, in any way, the leadership one expects from an executive head of state in a crisis, least of all from the President of the United States of America.

Bollocks. President Trump trolled his political opponents. He staked out the position seeking to re-open the economy as soon as possible. The anti-Trump deranged crowd knee-jerked and took the bait by taking the delay-opening-until-it’s-perfect position. President Trump’s position becomes stronger each day while the opposite position becomes less tenable. His opponents will now “own” the re-opening delays.

 

[Revoltingest]

President Trump hasn’t fomented violence. There is no evidence to support such a ludicrous claim.

Yes, President Trump is displaying leadership. He is at work implementing policies which actually work. Others are sniping from the cheap seats, or I dare say from foreign shores, with unreasoned pablum.

The death rate in the U.S. from COVID-19 is 62 per million. In the U.K. it is 150 per million. In other words the death rate in your country is two and a half times what it is here. Maybe you should examine your own country’s leadership, or rather lack thereof, before criticizing the U.S.A.

No one has yet cited any violence or even threats thereof related
to the protest. The left (NPR) has even tried to paint us as white
supremacists. All this without any evidence being offered.
Some people....they just see us as "the enemy", & out spill all
the stereotypes they so love...facts be damned.

 

[metis]

I'm pretty sure without access to any money and no feasible way of maintaining a quality standard of life, all because of a Democrat king**** governor who enjoys making dictatorial decrees, you're going to wish you were dead.

It's is so utterly hypocritical of you to say that she supposedly speaks like that, and yet you can't actually see Trump doing this on a regular basis, namely acting like an autocrat. Blind much. [note that this is not a question]

Under Michigan law, Whitmer has the power to do what she has been doing, although the Michigan congress could try and stop her but has failed to even try thus far-- the Pubs just whine, with one of them calling his own party here out on that and saying she's doing the right thing. If the other Pubs succeeded in doing so, and the deaths ramped-up again, they well know it would be all over for them here in November.

To put it bluntly, your partisan bigotry is appalling. Fortunately, a recent poll has it that just short of 2/3 of the American public state that they prefer safety and human lives over opening up too soon, and now is simply too soon according to the experts. But it's obvious that you really don't care what they say, nor that a great many human lives would be at risk if we opened up this soon.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's is so utterly hypocritical of you to say that she supposedly speaks like that, and yet you can't actually see Trump doing this on a regular basis, namely acting like an autocrat. Blind much. [note that this is not a question]

Under Michigan law, Whitmer has the power to do what she has been doing, although the Michigan congress could try and stop her but has failed to even try thus far-- the Pubs just whine, with one of them calling his own party here out on that and saying she's doing the right thing. If the other Pubs succeeded in doing so, and the deaths ramped-up again, they well know it would be all over for them here in November.

To put it bluntly, your partisan bigotry is appalling. Fortunately, a recent poll has it that just short of 2/3 of the American public state that they prefer safety and human lives over opening up too soon, and now is simply too soon according to the experts. But it's obvious that you really don't care what they say, nor that a great many human lives would be at risk if we opened up this soon.

It isn't so clear that the governor has the power to impose such restrictions.
One lawyer I know is ready to fight the ticketing & fines pro bono for us.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's is so utterly hypocritical of you to say that she supposedly speaks like that, and yet you can't actually see Trump doing this on a regular basis, namely acting like an autocrat. Blind much. [note that this is not a question]

Under Michigan law, Whitmer has the power to do what she has been doing, although the Michigan congress could try and stop her but has failed to even try thus far-- the Pubs just whine, with one of them calling his own party here out on that and saying she's doing the right thing. If the other Pubs succeeded in doing so, and the deaths ramped-up again, they well know it would be all over for them here in November.

To put it bluntly, your partisan bigotry is appalling. Fortunately, a recent poll has it that just short of 2/3 of the American public state that they prefer safety and human lives over opening up too soon, and now is simply too soon according to the experts. But it's obvious that you really don't care what they say, nor that a great many human lives would be at risk if we opened up this soon.

Yeah she's a real hero.

 

[metis]

Yeah she's a real hero.

Since she's taken actions to save lives, and it's becoming obvious now that it is doing just that, then yes, I agree. She is actually doing what Fauci and Birk have been saying, and even the Donald said much the same up until he decided to attack the Democratic governors.

Unfortunately, the only thing you are showing us is how unimportant other people's lives are to you, which is certainly not what dharma nor the Bible teaches.

We will be undoubtedly loosening up these restrictions gradually, probably sometime in May, and this will vary state by state with even probable variations within each state. The big problem is that we don't have enough test equipment, plus states are running dangerously short of PPE's. Today, a planeload of medical equipment from China flew into Illinois, which is what our own government should have been arranging all along instead of just leaving it up to the state. This is why FEMA was created in the fist place!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Since she's taken actions to save lives, and it's becoming obvious now that it is doing just that, then yes, I agree. She is actually doing what Fauci and Birk have been saying, and even the Donald said much the same up until he decided to attack the Democratic governors.

Unfortunately, the only thing you are showing us is how unimportant other people's lives are to you, which is certainly not what dharma nor the Bible teaches.

We will be undoubtedly loosening up these restrictions gradually, probably sometime in May, and this will vary state by state with even probable variations within each state. The big problem is that we don't have enough test equipment, plus states are running dangerously short of PPE's. Today, a planeload of medical equipment from China flew into Illinois, which is what our own government should have been arranging all along instead of just leaving it up to the state. This is why FEMA was created in the fist place!

Well as long as the economy and market sustainability prevails and people have a means to live and maintain themselves, its acceptable.

What shes doing is deciding what is essential and not essential, and that is a big mistake in light of what has been declared as being non-essential.

Another thing is people will have a lot more respect for a person that leads by example themselves.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Since she's taken actions to save lives, and it's becoming obvious now that it is doing just that, then yes, I agree. She is actually doing what Fauci and Birk have been saying, and even the Donald said much the same up until he decided to attack the Democratic governors.

Unfortunately, the only thing you are showing us is how unimportant other people's lives are to you, which is certainly not what dharma nor the Bible teaches.

We will be undoubtedly loosening up these restrictions gradually, probably sometime in May, and this will vary state by state with even probable variations within each state. The big problem is that we don't have enough test equipment, plus states are running dangerously short of PPE's. Today, a planeload of medical equipment from China flew into Illinois, which is what our own government should have been arranging all along instead of just leaving it up to the state. This is why FEMA was created in the fist place!

You want to know how predictable it is?

If the economy collapses, because of this massive overkill on peoples means and ways, you know full well what the rhetoric will be from the left as the shift from saving lives changes to how lives are now destroyed from a collapsed and unviable market system.

 

[Wandering Monk]

In Jacobson vs. Massachusetts, the Supreme Court laid down the principle that Constitutional rights are not absolute and that states may enact public health laws which take precedence over constitutional rights.:

"This court has more than once recognized it as a fundamental principle that 'persons and property are subjected to all kinds of restraints and burdens in order to secure the general comfort, health, and prosperity of the state; of the perfect right of the legislature to do which no question ever was, or upon acknowledged general principles ever can be, made, so far as natural persons are concerned.' Hannibal & St. J. R. Co. v. Husen, 95 U. S. 465, 471, 24 L. ed. 527, 530; Missouri, K. & T. R. Co. v. Haber, 169 U. S. 613, 628, 629, 42 L. ed. 878-883, 18 Sup. Ct. Rep. 488; Thorpe v. Rutland & B. R. Co. 27 Vt. 148, 62 Am. Dec. 625. In Crowley v. Christensen, 137 U. S. 86, 89, 34 L. ed. 620, 621, 11 Sup. Ct. Rep. 13, we said: 'The possession and enjoyment of all rights are subject to such reasonable conditions as may be deemed by the governing authority of the country essential to the safety, health, peace, good order, and morals of the community. Even liberty itself, the greatest of all rights, is not unrestricted license to act according to one's own will. It is only freedom from restraint under conditions essential to the equal enjoyment of the same right by others. It is, then, liberty regulated by law.' "

HENNING JACOBSON, , v. COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/197/11

 

[Regiomontanus]

...

Yes, President Trump is displaying leadership. He is at work implementing policies which actually work...

You really think that? Wow.

*cue Twilight Zone soundtrack

 

[Revoltingest]

Since she's taken actions to save lives....

Yes, those "essential" state lottery tickets bought in stores are saving lives how?
But buying repair parts for faucets is dangerous how?

 

[Regiomontanus]

Yes, those "essential" state lottery tickets bought in stores are saving lives how?
But buying repair parts for faucets is dangerous how?

What do lottery sales fund there? Maybe it was simply a way to keep $ flowing to an important program? Just a guess.

 

[Revoltingest]

What do lottery sales fund there? Maybe it was simply a way to keep $ flowing to an important program? Just a guess.

I strongly suspect that it was about state revenue, & not about safety.
The same for traveling to state parks, but banning travel to 2nd homes.

But the state is discovering that sales tax revenue is down.
And this summer, property tax collection might suffer due to inability to pay.
Of course, then the state will charge interest...very high interest on the deadbeats.

 

[Shaul]

You really think that? Wow.

*cue Twilight Zone soundtrack

The evidence shows its is true.

 

[Shaul]

In Jacobson vs. Massachusetts, the Supreme Court laid down the principle that Constitutional rights are not absolute and that states may enact public health laws which take precedence over constitutional rights.:

"This court has more than once recognized it as a fundamental principle that 'persons and property are subjected to all kinds of restraints and burdens in order to secure the general comfort, health, and prosperity of the state; of the perfect right of the legislature to do which no question ever was, or upon acknowledged general principles ever can be, made, so far as natural persons are concerned.' Hannibal & St. J. R. Co. v. Husen, 95 U. S. 465, 471, 24 L. ed. 527, 530; Missouri, K. & T. R. Co. v. Haber, 169 U. S. 613, 628, 629, 42 L. ed. 878-883, 18 Sup. Ct. Rep. 488; Thorpe v. Rutland & B. R. Co. 27 Vt. 148, 62 Am. Dec. 625. In Crowley v. Christensen, 137 U. S. 86, 89, 34 L. ed. 620, 621, 11 Sup. Ct. Rep. 13, we said: 'The possession and enjoyment of all rights are subject to such reasonable conditions as may be deemed by the governing authority of the country essential to the safety, health, peace, good order, and morals of the community. Even liberty itself, the greatest of all rights, is not unrestricted license to act according to one's own will. It is only freedom from restraint under conditions essential to the equal enjoyment of the same right by others. It is, then, liberty regulated by law.' "

HENNING JACOBSON, , v. COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/197/11

Speaking of the Constitution, it requires any public health restrictions to be applied only in proscribed ways. For example a state cannot favor certain businesses over others. Yet in some case some favored businesses are exempted. Consider how abortion clinics are singled out (one way or another). Or religious bodies (i.e. churches) are not allowed exemptions for meetings of more than ten people but non-religious bodies (say bars, hair salons and political rallies) can apply and receive exemptions.

The point isn’t whose ox is being gored. The point is these shutdowns and public health restrictions must be uniformly applied on a level basis. But they aren’t. THAT is why many are protesting. It isn’t that they are defying a just action based on experts. It is because the actions are not just nor are they actually based on medical necessities. Instead some are based on politics.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Speaking of the Constitution, it requires any public health restrictions to be applied only in proscribed ways. For example a state cannot favor certain businesses over others. Yet in some case some favored businesses are exempted. Consider how abortion clinics are singled out (one way or another). Or religious bodies (i.e. churches) are not allowed exemptions for meetings of more than ten people but non-religious bodies (say bars, hair salons and political rallies) can apply and receive exemptions.

The point isn’t whose ox is being gored. The point is these shutdowns and public health restrictions must be uniformly applied on a level basis. But they aren’t. THAT is why many are protesting. It isn’t that they are defying a just action based on experts. It is because the actions are not just nor are they actually based on medical necessities. Instead some are based on politics.

Each state can set their own rules on this. Are you saying that they aren't being applied uniformly with your state? If yes, did the state delegate authority down to lower levels in your state?

 

[Shaul]

Each state can set their own rules on this. Are you saying that they aren't being applied uniformly with your state? If yes, did the state delegate authority down to lower levels in your state?

It doesn’t matter which particular state or locality we are talking about. All government entities in the U.S. must abide by the Constitution. I am precisely saying that there are both states and local entities that have applied the shutdowns in un-Constitutional ways. Nor am I alone in saying that. There have been court rulings to that effect. For example, Judge doubts Kansas COVID-19 rule, blocks it for 2 churches

I am saying that many of the protests against shutdowns are not against shutdowns per se. But how particular shutdowns are being implemented in an un-Constitutional manner.

 

[McBell]

It doesn’t matter which particular state or locality we are talking about. All government entities in the U.S. must abide by the Constitution. I am precisely saying that there are both states and local entities that have applied the shutdowns in un-Constitutional ways. Nor am I alone in saying that. There have been court rulings to that effect. For example, Judge doubts Kansas COVID-19 rule, blocks it for 2 churches

I am saying that many of the protests against shutdowns are not against shutdowns per se. But how particular shutdowns are being implemented in an un-Constitutional manner.

With all the lawsuits aover the shut down orders, lets see if the courts agree with you.

 

[Wandering Monk]

It doesn’t matter which particular state or locality we are talking about. All government entities in the U.S. must abide by the Constitution. I am precisely saying that there are both states and local entities that have applied the shutdowns in un-Constitutional ways. Nor am I alone in saying that. There have been court rulings to that effect. For example, Judge doubts Kansas COVID-19 rule, blocks it for 2 churches

I am saying that many of the protests against shutdowns are not against shutdowns per se. But how particular shutdowns are being implemented in an un-Constitutional manner.

'

Freedom of assembly is the individual right to peacefully assemble, collectively express, and petition the government for redress of grievances guaranteed by the First Amendment to the US Constitution. Freedom of assembly is often used interchangeably with the freedom of association. In general, freedom of assembly is a First Amendment right guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution. First Amendment right provides that congress shall make no law abridging the right of people peaceably to assemble. However, freedom of assembly can be limited by a local legislative authority through the legitimate use of its police powers. Examples of laws which limit freedom of assembly are found in various riot acts, unlawful assembly laws, and ordinances prohibiting the blocking of sidewalks. Hence, the constitutional rights of freedom of assembly, speech and worship does not include the privilege of exercising such rights on private, undedicated, property, against the will of the owners.'

Freedom of Assembly Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.​