Proselytizing: What is it and is it a good or bad thing?

[stvdv]

So what is proselytising? To me it means trying to convert people from one religion or worldview to another. Personally I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, but if someone had questions about my faith or were interested to learn I would certainly help them. If someone wanted to join my religion, if I believed they were sincere and understood what my faith was about, I would certainly assist them in their journey to become part of the worldwide community of my faith. So none of this I would consider proselytizing. I would avoid any manipulation, coercion or deception which certainly runs contrary to the truthfulness and trsutworthiness that is at the foundation of any genuine religion.

Except...that it is. that's what proselytizing IS.

And I should know. I used to be an official missionary. You know, one of those people who went door to door? If anybody knows what proselytizing is, it would be me. What you have described is the very best and most effective methods of proselytizing.

How Adrian describes it, to me it does not feel like proselytising.
1): He says that he will not try to convert people from one religion or worldview to another
2): Then Adrian says that if someone has questions about his faith he will answer them and be of help to the person
So adding 1+2 then I must conclude that this person has no religion to start with.

This is not proselytizing in my view. Unless the other person already has a religion and wants to change to Adrian's religion, then it's a gray area, as per definition Adrian gave to begin with (convert from one religion to another). But there is "Freedom of Religion" and I believe it is not my place to tell the other "do not join my religion" if that is what he wants. I don't understand that @dianaiad sees this as proselytizing.

I am really not into proselytizing, so I will even tell the person "No need to come to my religion ... you can pick any (non) faith you want; my way is not any better than any other way". But after that I leave it to the person to decide. Adrian does not try to convert a person from Religion A to B, so I do not see here any proselytizing at all. The man came to Adrian with questions. Adrian is just friendly and helpful (that is how I read his post).

 

[Samana Johann]

I agree that one without firm refuge can not give refuge to others. In the West we speak of the blind leading the blind.

Or demo-cracy, yes.

I agree we should follow men of wisdom. For me, Buddha was one such man. I don’t follow someone as a man of wisdom though, just because he makes such a claim.

Prove is importand, yes, householder Adrian.

"To what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."... — MN 95​

I do enjoy the Words of Buddha you share.

Mudita

This hides also an importand point:

"There is the case, Bhikkhus, that a Bhikkhu teaches the Dhamma, thinking: 'Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me. Having learned my Dhamma, may they be settled in believe in it. Having been settled in believe in it, may they show their settlement in believe," this is a kind of Bhikkhu, Bhikkhus, who is giving teaching on Dhamma impurely.

There is the case, Bhikkhus, that a Bhikkhu teaches the Dhamma, thinking: 'The Dhamma of the Blessed One is well taught, direct visible, timeless, inviting to come and see, appropriate, to be self-experianced by the wise. Oh, may they listen to the Dhamma from me. Having learned the Dhamma, may they understand. Having understood the Dhamma, may they practice accordingly.' So he teaches the Dhamma because of the excellence nature of the Dhamma; he teaches the Dhamma out of compassion and kindness, out of concern. This is a kind of Bhikkhu, Bhikkhus, who is giving teaching on Dhamma purely.

...SN 16.3: Candūpama Sutta — Comparable to the Moon​

I know I’m not a communist, nor a wolf in sheep’s clothing, but if you think I am, I wish you well regardless. A wise man avoids giving or taking offence. I am not wise but that is what I aspire to.

Keep an eye on it, good householder. May good householder keep an eye on it. Not-knowing, not-seeing, is the cause of wrong ways. There are no such as "bad-guys" or "good". Just those who know and see, or faithful follow, and those not knowing, seeing, without any refuge.

 

[stvdv]

Before Jesus was crucified He gave instruction for His disciples to spread the Gospel to all nations. I don’t know if you consider that proselytising. Regardless, it proved extremely effective.

JC did not have the good opportunity to convert to RF, so He missed out on rule #8.

But on the other hand, if RF already is that smart to create rule #8, I can not imagine Jesus to be less smart
So maybe Jesus never said to the people to go proselytizing others ... Jesus did not write the Bible Himself
Sometimes it happens that the sheep become much more fanatic than the Master ever was

I do know that the Church has been in power for centuries, so the proselytizing part could have been their strategy
Sometimes, over time, the original message changes a little. I always use common sense above blind following
Rule #8 feels very good to me, so I choose to believe that Jesus originally never wanted others to proselytize

 

[Twilight Hue]

Before Jesus was crucified He gave instruction for His disciples to spread the Gospel to all nations. I don’t know if you consider that proselytising. Regardless, it proved extremely effective.

I view it as a direct contradiction between Christianity and the practice of its members. It's essentially the questions that arise from those who claim Christianity is a full self-sufficient religion hence the verse Luke 19:40 vs the statement of going out into the world and "spreading the good news" that many Christians interpret as a requirement for proselytization.

 

[syo]

o what is proselytizing to you and is it a good or bad thing.

Fake ''religions'' trying to take over. Trying to spread on people. A true religion never forces itself on people. In my opinion.

 

[Vinayaka]

Fake ''religions'' trying to take over. Trying to spread on people. A true religion never forces itself on people. In my opinion.

In the ancient days, if there was a sage that became famous, it was all by word of mouth. It's like if you know of a beautiful hidden remote waterfall on an island, and a friend happens to be going to that island, you tell them.

 

[PureX]

"Good or bad" is almost always a false dichotomy.

 

[SalixIncendium]

In the ancient days, if there was a sage that became famous, it was all by word of mouth. It's like if you know of a beautiful hidden remote waterfall on an island, and a friend happens to be going to that island, you tell them.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. People will seek out a teacher, whereas a proselytizer will seek out people.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. People will seek out a teacher, whereas a proselytizer will seek out people.

In traditional Hindu circles, the inner rule is that the teacher has to have a student ask, before he can even become a teacher. So yes, it's a mutual agreement. The teacher never goes looking for students.

 

[stvdv]

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. People will seek out a teacher, whereas a proselytizer will seek out people.

And in India I read that it's not the student seeking out the Master, but the Master seeks out the student
So maybe someone doing the proselytizer has the illusion/idea that he is a Master seeking out his students

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Proselytizing can mean different things to different people. Some people may feel a duty to proselytize as part of their faith. Others may use the word in a pejorative way to criticise others who 'teach' their faith to others while insisting on being above whatever they perceive the word to mean.

So what is proselytising? To me it means trying to convert people from one religion or worldview to another. Personally I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, but if someone had questions about my faith or were interested to learn I would certainly help them. If someone wanted to join my religion, if I believed they were sincere and understood what my faith was about, I would certainly assist them in their journey to become part of the worldwide community of my faith. So none of this I would consider proselytizing. I would avoid any manipulation, coercion or deception which certainly runs contrary to the truthfulness and trsutworthiness that is at the foundation of any genuine religion.

Proselytizing on religious forum is against the rules btw. Some of you may be aware of rule 8:

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

RF Rules

I've certainly experienced a great deal of proselytizing during my time on RF and have been accused of it myself.

So what is proselytizing to you and is it a good or bad thing.

Yes, unfortunately these days the term “proselytism” has been used to mean forcible conversion of one kind or another. The Bible does not support such a practice, nevertheless one could argue if one believes ones religion or denomination has the truth and by engaging with them is the only way to gain salvation wouldn't they be remiss not to tell others. Certainly in the bible the disciples carried out house to house ministries and spoke about the scriptures in public places.

I have no problem if someone wants to discuss matters of religion as long as they use reason and logic as opposed to tradition, I find one can quickly discover corruptions and untruths.

 

[pearl]

For example Muslims, are they already in a Covenant relationship with God? If so, why? If not, why not?

Yes, Muslims are in a Covenant relationship with God.
The Quran is the verbatim revelation from God in Arabic. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were Prophets and Messengers of God.
In the Quran even a dialogue with Jews and Christians is anticipated; "say, We believe in the Revelation that has come down to us and in that which came to you: our god and your God, is One; and it is to Him we bow in submission and peach" (2946)
According to the Quran Jesus and the patriarchs and Prophets of ancient Israel could be called "Muslims" in the sense of being persons who submitted their mind and hearts and wills to God and called others to do the same.

The phrase Holy Spirit has multiple meanings. What is it to you and how do you know you have it and someone else such as a Muslim does or doesn’t have it?

If not for the Holy Spirit my faith would not be in God as I encounter Him in Jesus. I think Holy Spirit to Muslims is more through the Angels, Gabriel etc., or God's spirit inspiring the prophets. The Holy Spirit blows where it wills, so its a question I cannot answer.

 

[Road Less Traveled]

I do know that often when someone figures they've become a better person because of religion, their former friends think otherwise. So who do we believe?

Personal observation and sound discernment.

Just about everyone that I am personally around occasionally would be what are commonly referred to as ‘lost sinners.’ They all have no ‘religious affiliations’ and yet are much more inclined to be accepting of all others, others who are different than them. Yet they also have their own ways of being poor natured, causing harm to themselves and others.

A decent friend of old, went from accepting people who are ‘homosexual,’ accepting others from all different walks to wanting nothing to do with them upon joining a church building to ‘become a better person.’ ‘Becoming a better person’ has led them to being highly judgmental of others, and condescending. It is almost mind boggling to know this guy how he once was to now what he has become. Yet they also have become better natured in ways.

It’s like a blending of becoming better in ways and worse in ways simultaneously. The loss of some bad ego but the gain of some bad ego.

Where I’ve found those not institutionalized or indoctrinated and seeking alone/ in solitude have becoming more complete and of wholesome in nature. The more loss of the bad ego.

 

[dianaiad]

How Adrian describes it, to me it does not feel like proselytising.
1): He says that he will not try to convert people from one religion or worldview to another
2): Then Adrian says that if someone has questions about his faith he will answer them and be of help to the person
So adding 1+2 then I must conclude that this person has no religion to start with.

This is not proselytizing in my view. Unless the other person already has a religion and wants to change to Adrian's religion, then it's a gray area, as per definition Adrian gave to begin with (convert from one religion to another). But there is "Freedom of Religion" and I believe it is not my place to tell the other "do not join my religion" if that is what he wants. I don't understand that @dianaiad sees this as proselytizing.

I am really not into proselytizing, so I will even tell the person "No need to come to my religion ... you can pick any (non) faith you want; my way is not any better than any other way". But after that I leave it to the person to decide. Adrian does not try to convert a person from Religion A to B, so I do not see here any proselytizing at all. The man came to Adrian with questions. Adrian is just friendly and helpful (that is how I read his post).

OK, here's the problem with that. I think...I believe...that if you do not personally think that your own beliefs aren't 'any better than any other way,' you are in the wrong belief system. Really. You are. Whatever faith you hold, you SHOULD see it as the best one out there. You should only leave it if you find one that is better, and when you do, you should change.

Now me, although I think that all religions (and indeed all belief systems, theist or a..) have truth in them, the one I have has the most. If I didn't believe that, I'd go looking, and when I found the system that had more, I'd switch. I'm seventy (well, a couple of weeks shy of being seventy, but I HATE being sixty-nine, for some reason) and I figure that after all my looking, if I haven't found a better one yet, I'm not going to now. Probably.

But that's why I love those who teach about their own beliefs, who get out there and talk about it, sing about it, knock on doors and are sincerely attempting to tell me about it. Knowledge is always a good thing. Learning about new ideas, different beliefs, ....wonderful. I love it. I love finding the truth in other beliefs, and relating their truths to mine.

And yes, if the opportunity arises, I'll tell them my truths in return. If someday that causes someone else to think, to pray, to change their minds about something, who could ask for more?

In the meantime, I'll just argue about everything else. That's fun too.

 

[Vinayaka]

Personal observation and sound discernment.

Just about everyone that I am personally around occasionally would be what are commonly referred to as ‘lost sinners.’ They all have no ‘religious affiliations’ and yet are much more inclined to be accepting of all others, others who are different than them. Yet they also have their own ways of being poor natured, causing harm to themselves and others.

A decent friend of old, went from accepting people who are ‘homosexual,’ accepting others from all different walks to wanting nothing to do with them upon joining a church building to ‘become a better person.’ ‘Becoming a better person’ has led them to being highly judgmental of others, and condescending. It is almost mind boggling to know this guy how he once was to now what he has become. Yet they also have become better natured in ways.

It’s like a blending of becoming better in ways and worse in ways simultaneously. The loss of some bad ego but the gain of some bad ego.

Where I’ve found those not institutionalized or indoctrinated and seeking alone/ in solitude have becoming more complete and of wholesome in nature. The more loss of the bad ego.

Your friend sounds like my friend. I question nearly everyone's ability to look in a mirror and get an honest look at themselves. This includes me. Therefore I generally don't believe people when they say they became better people. Of course that's part of the indoctrination that goes with conversion, but that would never stop me from questioning it.

Maybe it's like halitosis ... you can't smell it yourself, but to those around you, you reek.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hi CG. I don’t believe it’s strange because we Baha’is are supposed to treasure and value every person. I love having Christians in my home. I know their beliefs but I don’t feel inconvenienced or annoyed because firstly I accept Christ and the Bible and next we are all humans and we are diverse. So what they have a different viewpoint. To me that doesn’t exclude them from the human race or make them undesirables. I’m happy for them to believe I’m influenced by the devil or condemned to hell because it doesn’t bother me. It’s part and parcel of being tolerant.

I see the good in them not their faults and shortcomings of which I myself have many also.

It doesn’t matter what people believe or don’t believe , it’s the person behind that belief that’s what’s important, that all life is precious.

It’s only too easy to forget the person and get caught up in wrangling and trying to ‘win’ but that’s what life is all about to me, mastering and conquering our own egos. Often we fail. Often I fail.

What do you do when religions go bad? When they call for people of other religions to convert or be killed? What do you do when Baha'is go bad? Aren't they kicked out and shunned and labelled "Covenant Breakers"? So there is a point in which religious people's beliefs and behavior can't be tolerated.

But I've also seen Baha'is and people of other religions go at it. So love and tolerance might be the ideal, but in reality, people find something to believe in and sometimes, some people fight very hard to defend those beliefs... and show very little love or respect for the people of the other religion. I'd say that most of the Baha'is here have grown quite a bit in their knowledge and understanding of people from the other religions. But, I wouldn't say that all Baha'is here have shown love and respect.

As far as the devil, the resurrection, reincarnation and all the other things that Baha'is disagree with that are believed by others, I don't mind the debating, or sometimes arguing, that your beliefs are right are theirs are wrong. For me, that's what makes this forum interesting. But, like I said, when that arguing that the Baha'is beliefs are better, truer, more current... sometimes.... it doesn't sound like Baha'is have love and respect for that person and their beliefs. But, it is getting better.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good to hear from you. Many times I've considered leaving this forum due to the excessive amount that is allowed, in my view. But clearly I'm in the minority.

Your posts have been one of the most interesting things here. But, your posts needed those people and their posts to get you to post your opinions. I know it has gotten long and tedious, but I'm glad that you've stuck it out.

 

[CG Didymus]

I've had bad experiences with it, in fact, growing up in the Baptist church proselytizing was usually an attempt at justifying personal judgment on someone. Proselytizing has its uses, but how it is enacted, its just a reinterpretation of what someone thinks how someone ought to believe. Ironically, this exorbitant form of preaching often has the opposite effect of what it intends.

I've known several people that were preaching Jesus one year and then partying and doing drugs and drinking the next. Ironically, some still say they believe in Jesus.

 

[Vinayaka]

Your posts have been one of the most interesting things here. But, your posts needed those people and their posts to get you to post your opinions. I know it has gotten long and tedious, but I'm glad that you've stuck it out.

It's interesting how our Baha'i friends complain about the moderation against proselytising here, yet on their forum Bahaiforums, because of no moderation, it's sadly been overrun with spam by scammers. I'm just an observer.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've known several people that were preaching Jesus one year and then partying and doing drugs and drinking the next. Ironically, some still say they believe in Jesus.

I knew a guy who did that from Saturday to Sunday. Drugs and parties Saturday, church on Sunday. It's a more common mix than most suspect.