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Proposition: Jesus' sacrifice didn't get rid of humanity's debt to God

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Yes, that is a BOLD statement I just made for the thread title. Before you go and comment saying that I don't know basic atonement theology (which, trust me, I do, just ask anyone around here), hear me out.

According to St. Anselm's theory of satisfaction atonement (which forms the basis model for Roman Catholic and Protestant understanding of why Jesus had to be crucified), human sin incurs a debt against God. Because we're all constantly sinning, there is no possible way for us to pay back that debt, since any good we do already gets allocated to other debts we owe to God--keeping an oath, for example. In comes Jesus. Now, Jesus, being a perfect being, offered up His own life to pay the debt incurred by our sins. Since He didn't have a debt to God, all the payment He made went to paying off our debt. And since Jesus is a perfect being, He was able to pay that debt perfectly, above and beyond what we even owed.

Now, according to this theory, humanity is theoretically freed from the debt of sin to God. On the contrary, I make the proposition that Jesus merely replaced one debt for another. He paid off the debt owed to God for our sins, but now we are even more indebted to Jesus than we ever were to the Father, because Jesus paid off our debt while gaining nothing in return.

In almost any case where someone does you a favor out of the kindness of their hearts, that necessitates that you reciprocate the favor at some point or another. If someone gives you $10,000 to help you out of debt, it goes without saying that you are now obligated to do the same for them. We are now in Jesus' debt, and we owe Him big-time. At least with the debt of sin, we could try our best to pay it back by acting virtuously. But since Jesus paid off that debt with no strings attached, we now have literally no way to repay that debt, since it was done out of Jesus' good graces.

So in the grand scheme of things, Jesus dying to pay our debt to God just put us further into a debt that we are even less able to pay.

Your take? Is my argument valid? How am I right (or, most likely, wrong)?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The concept of Jesus dying for our answers is just the Christian version of a blood sacrifice. Pagan roots run deep in Christianity, especially coming out of the Roman Empire.

I have always questioned Jesus' legitimacy and divine lineage (even when I considered myself a Catholic) based on the fact that his sacrifice wasn't good enough to pay for sins in perpetuity. It seem's ungodly to suffer from limitations such as this, when one claims to be related to God. No one ever could give me a good answer for this, thus all of my doubts began. :D It's hard to believe that someone is the son of God, but is hampered by such chronological dilemmas.

In reality, no part of the Jesus story is original, and herein lies the problem. Personally, if there were a Jesus it would be like someone else randomly picking up my tab at a restaurant. It really doesn't illicit more than a, "Hey, thanks!" It was one deed, and not all that particularly unique - I don't find it any more special than other martyrs whom gave their lives for others in scale. It certainly isn't justification to start a religion.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes, that is a BOLD statement I just made for the thread title. Before you go and comment saying that I don't know basic atonement theology (which, trust me, I do, just ask anyone around here), hear me out.

According to St. Anselm's theory of satisfaction atonement (which forms the basis model for Roman Catholic and Protestant understanding of why Jesus had to be crucified), human sin incurs a debt against God. Because we're all constantly sinning, there is no possible way for us to pay back that debt, since any good we do already gets allocated to other debts we owe to God--keeping an oath, for example. In comes Jesus. Now, Jesus, being a perfect being, offered up His own life to pay the debt incurred by our sins. Since He didn't have a debt to God, all the payment He made went to paying off our debt. And since Jesus is a perfect being, He was able to pay that debt perfectly, above and beyond what we even owed.

Now, according to this theory, humanity is theoretically freed from the debt of sin to God. On the contrary, I make the proposition that Jesus merely replaced one debt for another. He paid off the debt owed to God for our sins, but now we are even more indebted to Jesus than we ever were to the Father, because Jesus paid off our debt while gaining nothing in return.

In almost any case where someone does you a favor out of the kindness of their hearts, that necessitates that you reciprocate the favor at some point or another. If someone gives you $10,000 to help you out of debt, it goes without saying that you are now obligated to do the same for them. We are now in Jesus' debt, and we owe Him big-time. At least with the debt of sin, we could try our best to pay it back by acting virtuously. But since Jesus paid off that debt with no strings attached, we now have literally no way to repay that debt, since it was done out of Jesus' good graces.

So in the grand scheme of things, Jesus dying to pay our debt to God just put us further into a debt that we are even less able to pay.

Your take? Is my argument valid? How am I right (or, most likely, wrong)?

Well, that depends. When someone pays for my meal and I offer to pay them back in return, they usually say "don't worry about it.... really don't worry about it." So, unless the christian feels guilty (which most I speak with do to the point of tears) that they are taking this precious gift they didn't deserve, I don't see how they are in more debt. If anything, christians just got to accept that "they don't need to pay the bill." It's been paid.

Why would you want to repay the debt, though? If it's a gift and a sacrifice, wouldn't that, in itself, mean something that was given to you (a grant, let's say) that was not meant to be paid back?

images


I know this is crude, but if there is a debt of the christian, more so than his original one, it's coercion or an ultimatum. Puts guilt on the christian.

So what do christians do about it, though?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
The more guilt I believe that is put onto the believer, the more that believer will cling to that belief system.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Yes, that is a BOLD statement I just made for the thread title. Before you go and comment saying that I don't know basic atonement theology (which, trust me, I do, just ask anyone around here), hear me out.

According to St. Anselm's theory of satisfaction atonement (which forms the basis model for Roman Catholic and Protestant understanding of why Jesus had to be crucified), human sin incurs a debt against God. Because we're all constantly sinning, there is no possible way for us to pay back that debt, since any good we do already gets allocated to other debts we owe to God--keeping an oath, for example. In comes Jesus. Now, Jesus, being a perfect being, offered up His own life to pay the debt incurred by our sins. Since He didn't have a debt to God, all the payment He made went to paying off our debt. And since Jesus is a perfect being, He was able to pay that debt perfectly, above and beyond what we even owed.

Now, according to this theory, humanity is theoretically freed from the debt of sin to God. On the contrary, I make the proposition that Jesus merely replaced one debt for another. He paid off the debt owed to God for our sins, but now we are even more indebted to Jesus than we ever were to the Father, because Jesus paid off our debt while gaining nothing in return.

In almost any case where someone does you a favor out of the kindness of their hearts, that necessitates that you reciprocate the favor at some point or another. If someone gives you $10,000 to help you out of debt, it goes without saying that you are now obligated to do the same for them. We are now in Jesus' debt, and we owe Him big-time. At least with the debt of sin, we could try our best to pay it back by acting virtuously. But since Jesus paid off that debt with no strings attached, we now have literally no way to repay that debt, since it was done out of Jesus' good graces.

So in the grand scheme of things, Jesus dying to pay our debt to God just put us further into a debt that we are even less able to pay.

Your take? Is my argument valid? How am I right (or, most likely, wrong)?
This gives a whole new perspective on "borrowing from Peter to pay Paul".
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
The problem is that there are two conflicting themes: 1. sacrifice and 2. resurrection.

1. The item, person, or whatever is sacrificed. You don't get it back. It goes through destruction so you don't have to.

2. Resurrection is ignoring death, of "proving" you are better than anything.

For starters, Jesus came back after 3 days, so you can forget number 1. It simply can't be a sacrifice if you just pop back up like nothing happened. That's not even counting Jesus isn't perfect despite the claims, because he sins quite often, from dishonoring parents (hell, that's in the Top Ten) to vandalism to bigotry to just unbelievable cold-heartedness (imagine you are the swineherd watching as some dude comes up to your livestock and chases them off a cliff ... picture the horror of your livelihood literally going off the cliff ... picture the terrified squeals of pigs until they are cut short by the sound of splattering pork guts all over the base of the cliff ... picture the smell that will take months to go away ...).
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
According to Tanach human sacrifice is an abomination; how could Jesus be a sacrifice to begin with? This also ignores the idea that a person can be righteous without Jesus. Many people in the scriptures are described as righteous.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is a BOLD statement I just made for the thread title. Before you go and comment saying that I don't know basic atonement theology (which, trust me, I do, just ask anyone around here), hear me out.

According to St. Anselm's theory of satisfaction atonement (which forms the basis model for Roman Catholic and Protestant understanding of why Jesus had to be crucified), human sin incurs a debt against God. Because we're all constantly sinning, there is no possible way for us to pay back that debt, since any good we do already gets allocated to other debts we owe to God--keeping an oath, for example. In comes Jesus. Now, Jesus, being a perfect being, offered up His own life to pay the debt incurred by our sins. Since He didn't have a debt to God, all the payment He made went to paying off our debt. And since Jesus is a perfect being, He was able to pay that debt perfectly, above and beyond what we even owed.

Now, according to this theory, humanity is theoretically freed from the debt of sin to God. On the contrary, I make the proposition that Jesus merely replaced one debt for another. He paid off the debt owed to God for our sins, but now we are even more indebted to Jesus than we ever were to the Father, because Jesus paid off our debt while gaining nothing in return.

In almost any case where someone does you a favor out of the kindness of their hearts, that necessitates that you reciprocate the favor at some point or another. If someone gives you $10,000 to help you out of debt, it goes without saying that you are now obligated to do the same for them. We are now in Jesus' debt, and we owe Him big-time. At least with the debt of sin, we could try our best to pay it back by acting virtuously. But since Jesus paid off that debt with no strings attached, we now have literally no way to repay that debt, since it was done out of Jesus' good graces.

So in the grand scheme of things, Jesus dying to pay our debt to God just put us further into a debt that we are even less able to pay.

Your take? Is my argument valid? How am I right (or, most likely, wrong)?

If you owe money to a king, and the king forgives your debt, are you now more in debt to the king? No, the debt is forgiven.

Perhaps you feel compelled to live a life of love, gratitude and service to the king? In a way this is similar to indebtedness, but it is not the same as indebtedness. Indebtedness is a transactional reality, a real payment that you owed. Gratitude and love in return for forgiveness is relational, it is not transactional. There is no fixed payment required, the debt is cleared.

In the Christian context, our hearts of stone are made into hearts of flesh, and it becomes a joy to serve God and have relationship with Him. He asks not for us to pay debts, but to dwell with Him forever.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Yes, that is a BOLD statement I just made for the thread title. Before you go and comment saying that I don't know basic atonement theology (which, trust me, I do, just ask anyone around here), hear me out.

According to St. Anselm's theory of satisfaction atonement (which forms the basis model for Roman Catholic and Protestant understanding of why Jesus had to be crucified), human sin incurs a debt against God. Because we're all constantly sinning, there is no possible way for us to pay back that debt, since any good we do already gets allocated to other debts we owe to God--keeping an oath, for example. In comes Jesus. Now, Jesus, being a perfect being, offered up His own life to pay the debt incurred by our sins. Since He didn't have a debt to God, all the payment He made went to paying off our debt. And since Jesus is a perfect being, He was able to pay that debt perfectly, above and beyond what we even owed.

Now, according to this theory, humanity is theoretically freed from the debt of sin to God. On the contrary, I make the proposition that Jesus merely replaced one debt for another. He paid off the debt owed to God for our sins, but now we are even more indebted to Jesus than we ever were to the Father, because Jesus paid off our debt while gaining nothing in return.

In almost any case where someone does you a favor out of the kindness of their hearts, that necessitates that you reciprocate the favor at some point or another. If someone gives you $10,000 to help you out of debt, it goes without saying that you are now obligated to do the same for them. We are now in Jesus' debt, and we owe Him big-time. At least with the debt of sin, we could try our best to pay it back by acting virtuously. But since Jesus paid off that debt with no strings attached, we now have literally no way to repay that debt, since it was done out of Jesus' good graces.

So in the grand scheme of things, Jesus dying to pay our debt to God just put us further into a debt that we are even less able to pay.

Your take? Is my argument valid? How am I right (or, most likely, wrong)?
The whole idea of the Jesus god is just wrong.
Christians are so deceived.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is a BOLD statement I just made for the thread title. Before you go and comment saying that I don't know basic atonement theology (which, trust me, I do, just ask anyone around here), hear me out.

According to St. Anselm's theory of satisfaction atonement (which forms the basis model for Roman Catholic and Protestant understanding of why Jesus had to be crucified), human sin incurs a debt against God. Because we're all constantly sinning, there is no possible way for us to pay back that debt, since any good we do already gets allocated to other debts we owe to God--keeping an oath, for example. In comes Jesus. Now, Jesus, being a perfect being, offered up His own life to pay the debt incurred by our sins. Since He didn't have a debt to God, all the payment He made went to paying off our debt. And since Jesus is a perfect being, He was able to pay that debt perfectly, above and beyond what we even owed.

Now, according to this theory, humanity is theoretically freed from the debt of sin to God. On the contrary, I make the proposition that Jesus merely replaced one debt for another. He paid off the debt owed to God for our sins, but now we are even more indebted to Jesus than we ever were to the Father, because Jesus paid off our debt while gaining nothing in return.

In almost any case where someone does you a favor out of the kindness of their hearts, that necessitates that you reciprocate the favor at some point or another. If someone gives you $10,000 to help you out of debt, it goes without saying that you are now obligated to do the same for them. We are now in Jesus' debt, and we owe Him big-time. At least with the debt of sin, we could try our best to pay it back by acting virtuously. But since Jesus paid off that debt with no strings attached, we now have literally no way to repay that debt, since it was done out of Jesus' good graces.

So in the grand scheme of things, Jesus dying to pay our debt to God just put us further into a debt that we are even less able to pay.

Your take? Is my argument valid? How am I right (or, most likely, wrong)?


The problem with your position is that salvation is the free gift of God. Now our only responsibility is to worship, praise and thank the One whose plan made our salvation possible.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
ALL allegories are based on literal events.
You just made that up.

This is exactly the problem with the whole Christian narrative.
Christians live in a fantasy land.
They think this evil beast called Satan is out to get them.
They think that some guy named Jesus was God incarnate and sacrificed himself on a tree to atone for the things they do wrong when they have too much to drink.
They think that their god is so just that he is going to punish some of his creation for eternity because they didn't get the Jesus memo.
That amounts to about 2/3 of the population.
They think this Jesus god is going to someday part the sky and drop down to earth to save the day.

There is so much more that qualifies as fantasy that i would be all day listing it all.
The Bible is a book of the Spirit, it is not to be interpreted as if it is a history book.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
You just made that up.


Thanks forf confirming thtg you don't knw wht an allegory is.

This is exactly the problem with the whole Christian narrative.
Christians live in a fantasy land.QUOTE]

WE wont know that until the fat lady sings.

They think this evil beast called Satan is out to get them.
They think that some guy named Jesus was God incarnate and sacrificed himself on a tree to atone for the things they do wrong when they have too much to drink.

Thanks for exposing your ignorance of Christianity.

They think that their god is so just that he is going to punish some of his creation for eternity because they didn't get the Jesus memo.
That amounts to about 2/3 of the population.

I know that God is loving, compassionate and just. No one when standing before the great white thrown, including you, will not be able to shake their finger at God and say you treated me unfairly.

They think this Jesus god is going to someday part the sky and drop down to earth to save the day.

And some will say, with nothing but their personal, biased OPINION, He will not. Thanks for confirming the accuracy of the Bible---Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following their own lusts, and saying "where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it ws from the beginning of creation--2 Pet 3:3-4 :D

There is so much more that qualifies as fantasy that i would be all day listing it all.
The Bible is a book of the Spirit, it is not to be interpreted as if it is a history book.

To bad all you have is your own, personal OPINION. no evidence
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Thanks forf confirming thtg you don't knw wht an allegory is.



To bad all you have is your own, personal OPINION. no evidence
So you think you know what an allegory is but don't.
And all you have is your personal opinion...no evidence.

Is that right?
 
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