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Prophets

seeking4truth

Active Member
It occurred to me this weekend that there is a big divergence of understanding of the status of Prophets in religions that may be behind the confrontations with Muslims over depicting the Holy Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessing be on him).

If you read the stories in the Old Testament there are stories of prophets behaving in immoral ways, no better than most men and worse than many.
Muslims believe that all Prophets are of the very highest moral stature and had to be to be a role model and leader able to increase the general standards of piety and morality of those they led. Hence enabling their followers to gain greater understanding of God.
Muslims hold the Holy Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessing be on him) to be the perfect man and perfect Prophet, as perfect as it is possible for a man to be to be an example to us all.
This divergence of concept may account for the ease with which some non-Muslims depict the Prophet offensively and the rage they provoke in Muslims.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
There are people who seem Muhammad as having committed immoral acts as well. Are you sure this idea of perfection is part of Islam? It seems more on par with Christianity and their idea of a perfect Jesus. Close to elevating Muhammad to deity status.

"Only God is perfect". To claim a man is perfect, what's that saying about him?
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
Saying man is perfect to me means 'as perfect as a man can be' It is not absolute perfection.
Only Almighty Allah is truly absolutely perfect; supreme in all His attributes.

I think that everything that Almighty Allah has created is perfect for it's purpose except what man through his actions has spoiled.
Would Almighty Allah create anything less than perfect for its purpose?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It occurred to me this weekend that there is a big divergence of understanding of the status of Prophets in religions that may be behind the confrontations with Muslims over depicting the Holy Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessing be on him).

If you read the stories in the Old Testament there are stories of prophets behaving in immoral ways, no better than most men and worse than many.
Muslims believe that all Prophets are of the very highest moral stature and had to be to be a role model and leader able to increase the general standards of piety and morality of those they led. Hence enabling their followers to gain greater understanding of God.
Muslims hold the Holy Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessing be on him) to be the perfect man and perfect Prophet, as perfect as it is possible for a man to be to be an example to us all.
This divergence of concept may account for the ease with which some non-Muslims depict the Prophet offensively and the rage they provoke in Muslims.
I think this is true, but it provides absolutely no excuse to those who can't "handle" seeing offensive images of Muhammad. Because of the divergence you describe, it is unreasonable for Muslims to assume that non-muslims will see offensive pictures of Muhammad as being unacceptable.

I see offensive things on a daily basis. I hear offensive rants as well. I ignore them, as seeing/hearing these things is a part of life. Courage, honor, and civility will only occur when Muslims accept this. There will always be those that go out of their way to provoke reactions. The stupidest reaction to these things is to get outwardly upset or, worse, violent/destructive. Reactions such as these give credence to the ones making these pictures. It is the same way with bullies in high school. If you get upset, it will lead to more beatings. If you just ignore it, you take away the purpose behind the bullying and it will stop.

If there is one historical figure that does not need anyone to stick up for him, it is Muhammad.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Christians also see Jesus as perfect. However they tolerate and even expect mockery.
Jesus taught to turn the other cheek.

So I don't think it is just this image of perfection. It must be something that is taught in Islam which is different than Christianity.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Christians also see Jesus as perfect. However they tolerate and even expect mockery.
Jesus taught to turn the other cheek.

So I don't think it is just this image of perfection. It must be something that is taught in Islam which is different than Christianity.
I agree. I hear the pitiful excuse from some Muslims that "[they] don't mock the prophets of other religions, so people sshould stop disrespecting ours". The problem is that is arrogant and unrealistic. The more reaction cartoonists who draw Muhammad get, the more pictures they will draw. Simple as that. The only reasonable way to fight it is to ignore it. It seems that is an unknown concept in Islam.
 

arthra

Baha'i
It occurred to me this weekend that there is a big divergence of understanding of the status of Prophets in religions that may be behind the confrontations with Muslims over depicting the Holy Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessing be on him).

If you read the stories in the Old Testament there are stories of prophets behaving in immoral ways, no better than most men and worse than many.
Muslims believe that all Prophets are of the very highest moral stature and had to be to be a role model and leader able to increase the general standards of piety and morality of those they led. Hence enabling their followers to gain greater understanding of God.
Muslims hold the Holy Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessing be on him) to be the perfect man and perfect Prophet, as perfect as it is possible for a man to be to be an example to us all.
This divergence of concept may account for the ease with which some non-Muslims depict the Prophet offensively and the rage they provoke in Muslims.

Depicting a Prophet say as a caricature .. in this case Prophet Muhammad... is not appropriate in the Baha'i view. We also do not believe Prophet Muhammad behaved in an immoral way given the context of the society in which He lived. some of the stories in the scriptures are not to be taken literally and some may be inaccurate.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
I think this is true, but it provides absolutely no excuse to those who can't "handle" seeing offensive images of Muhammad. Because of the divergence you describe, it is unreasonable for Muslims to assume that non-muslims will see offensive pictures of Muhammad as being unacceptable.

I see offensive things on a daily basis. I hear offensive rants as well. I ignore them, as seeing/hearing these things is a part of life. Courage, honor, and civility will only occur when Muslims accept this. There will always be those that go out of their way to provoke reactions. The stupidest reaction to these things is to get outwardly upset or, worse, violent/destructive. Reactions such as these give credence to the ones making these pictures. It is the same way with bullies in high school. If you get upset, it will lead to more beatings. If you just ignore it, you take away the purpose behind the bullying and it will stop.

If there is one historical figure that does not need anyone to stick up for him, it is Muhammad.


I agree that the responses of some Muslims are totally unacceptable and unislamic, and do more harm to the name and teachings of Muhammad(peace and blessings be on him) than the original act.
If only his example could be correctly followed this would never happen. He endured 13 years of abuse and assault in Meccah while not permitting his followers to retaliate, later advising those who could to emigrate to find a more secure place, as he himself also did later.
He never permitted abuse to be returned. The Holy Quran also forbids abuse, especially of the religious sentiments of others.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I agree that the responses of some Muslims are totally unacceptable and unislamic, and do more harm to the name and teachings of Muhammad(peace and blessings be on him) than the original act.
If only his example could be correctly followed this would never happen. He endured 13 years of abuse and assault in Meccah while not permitting his followers to retaliate, later advising those who could to emigrate to find a more secure place, as he himself also did later.
He never permitted abuse to be returned. The Holy Quran also forbids abuse, especially of the religious sentiments of others.
So, in your opinion, why do you think there is so much unreasonable outbursts over depictions of Muhammad (some that are obviously offensive, and some that are merely representations)? I agree with your asssessment of what the Quran demands. I'm obviously not as familiar with it as you are, but I have read it a few times. I just don't understand where this attitude is coming from ... that Islam should get special protections not afforded to other religions.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
So, in your opinion, why do you think there is so much unreasonable outbursts over depictions of Muhammad (some that are obviously offensive, and some that are merely representations)? I agree with your asssessment of what the Quran demands. I'm obviously not as familiar with it as you are, but I have read it a few times. I just don't understand where this attitude is coming from ... that Islam should get special protections not afforded to other religions.


In my opinion the incorrect response is due to lack of education, ignorance of the Holy Quran and Sunnah and dependence on ill educated leaders. who also suffer from lack of spiritual connection while claiming total obedience to the letter of Islam.
The Holy Prophet himself(peace and blessing be on him) said that the day would come when there would be nothing left of Islam but its name and knowledge of the meaning of Islam would have ascended to the Pleiades.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
In my opinion the incorrect response is due to lack of education, ignorance of the Holy Quran and Sunnah and dependence on ill educated leaders. who also suffer from lack of spiritual connection while claiming total obedience to the letter of Islam.
The Holy Prophet himself(peace and blessing be on him) said that the day would come when there would be nothing left of Islam but its name and knowledge of the meaning of Islam would have ascended to the Pleiades.
Really. That is so interesting. Where can I find reference to that?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Saying man is perfect to me means 'as perfect as a man can be' It is not absolute perfection.
Only Almighty Allah is truly absolutely perfect; supreme in all His attributes.

I think that everything that Almighty Allah has created is perfect for it's purpose except what man through his actions has spoiled.
Would Almighty Allah create anything less than perfect for its purpose?

There is not such a thing as absolute perfection. Either you are perfect, or you are not, by definition.

Ergo, if Allah created man as not absolutely perfect, then He created man as something which is not perfect at all. And if mighty Allah creates perfect things for His purpose, it follows immediately that He did not create man for His purpose.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
Perfect for its purpose. Perfect according to its limitations.
The egg of a butterfly and the butterfly are both perfect but do not have the same qualities.
Human beings are the perfect form to reflect the attributes of God without having those attributes in their perfect form - which only God has.
Hence my idea that only God is absolutely perfect but creation is perfect for its purpose.
 
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