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Featured Prophets, Legitimacy etc.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    I've already said how he meets the criteria.

    1. He didn't drink or smoke, who strived to stop animal abuse to such a degree that the animal welfare laws he put in place are still in effect today. He also served bravely and was decorated with high honors.
    2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out.
    3. He was not completely successful before his premature death, but he did accomplish a great deal of what he set out to do.
    4. He wrote much about what he believed his life's work to be, and firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the glory of God.
    5. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the movement he founded. Indeed, his followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

    So, does that meet the criteria or not? Perhaps we could put it to a vote? Let everyone else decide whether this person meets the criteria or not?
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    He does not meet my criteria according to *my understanding* of my criteria but if you want to put it to a vote go ahead.
     
  3. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Please tell me why he does not meet your criteria.
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Below are my minimum criteria:

    1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

    2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

    3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

    4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

    5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

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    Tiberius said: I've already said how he meets the criteria.

    1. He didn't drink or smoke, who strived to stop animal abuse to such a degree that the animal welfare laws he put in place are still in effect today. He also served bravely and was decorated with high honors.
    • Did he have qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient? How would you know?
    2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out.
    • Did he declare his mission from God? What was his mission? What did he do to carry it out?
    3. He was not completely successful before his premature death, but he did accomplish a great deal of what he set out to do.
    • If he was not completely successful before his death and if he did not accomplish everything that he set out to do then he does not meet my criteria (see #2 above).
    4. He wrote much about what he believed his life's work to be, and firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the glory of God.
    • His life's work is of no import. What he 'believed' about doing what he did for the glory of God is of no import. Did he believe that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God? Did he write much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively? (see #3 above).
    5. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the movement he founded. Indeed, his followers have grown more numerous in recent times.
    • Many men have followers and movements but that does not mean they are Messengers of God.
     
  5. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    #1: Jesus doesn't meet tis criteria.

    #2 He did declare his mission. If I told you what it was, it would indicate who he was, and I don't want that to influence your thinking here. But he most certainly declared it, so he meets criteria #2.

    #3 This would seem to grant immortality to God's messengers. Is that something you want to do? It leads to all sorts of problems with free will.

    #4, he most certainly believed he was doing God's work. He and his followers strongly believed that God was with them.

    #5 If having followers isn't evidence that they are messengers from God, why did you include it as one of your criteria?
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    @Tiberius

    #1: Jesus doesn't meet this criteria.
    Why do you say that? What part of the criteria does Jesus not meet?

    #2 He did declare his mission. If I told you what it was, it would indicate who he was, and I don't want that to influence your thinking here. But he most certainly declared it, so he meets criteria #2.
    You can believe that all you want but I won't believe it unless I know who he was and can check him out.

    #3 This would seem to grant immortality to God's messengers. Is that something you want to do? It leads to all sorts of problems with free will.
    Why would his writing much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively grant immortality to the Messenger?

    #4, he most certainly believed he was doing God's work. He and his followers strongly believed that God was with them.
    You can believe that all you want but I won't believe it unless I know who he was and can check him out.

    #5 If having followers isn't evidence that they are messengers from God, why did you include it as one of your criteria?
    All Messengers who establish true religions have many followers while they are alive, and then after they die there are millions who follow their teachings and gather in groups based on the religion that was founded.
     
  7. Praise Jah

    Praise Jah Psalm 83:18

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    The three essentials for establishing the credentials of a true prophet, as given through Moses, were: The true prophet would speak in Jehovah's name; the things foretold would come to pass (Deuteronomy 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

    Jesus, the Messiah, was “The Prophet,” the long-awaited one foretold by Moses. (Deuteronomy 18:18-19; Acts 3:19-26)

    Jesus’ warning concerning false prophets paralleled that of Moses. Though using his name, and giving “signs and wonders to lead astray,” their fruits would prove them “workers of lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:15-23; Mark 13:21-23; compare 2Peter 2:1-3; 1John 4:1-3)

    Jesus worshipped his God and Father, Jehovah. Jesus left us a model to follow his footsteps closely. I too worship Jehovah because he is Almighty God and the Creator and is worthy of all honor, glory and praise. (1Peter 2:21) (John 20:17) (Revelation 4:11)
     
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  8. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    This was enough to answer my question.
     
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  9. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Jesus unfairly cursed the fig tree because it wasn't producing figs, even though it was not fig season. Does this sound like "love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient" to you?

    Well, let's leave this as a conditional for the moment, shall we? Would you agree that IF he declared his mission, you'll take it as him meeting this criteria? (Remember there's that IF there).

    I was referring to the third point in the second half, the one that says he has to complete his work. If a messenger of God is destined to complete his work, then God must intervene to make sure the person in question is not killed by an accident or deliberate foul play.

    He wrote a book in which he outright stated that he believed he was doing God's work. “Today, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: ... I am fighting for the work of the Lord

    You miss my point.

    You can say "All messengers have followers," but that does not mean that "All who have followers are messengers."
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Even if Jesus did that I do not think that eliminates Jesus from the pool of candidates. How does cursing a fig tree hurt the fig tree?
    Declaring his mission was not one of my criteria.
    That's true because if God predestines something it has to come to pass. Baha'u'llah wrote that if He was killed at the hands of his enemies God would raise up another Messenger who would complete the work that God gave Him to do. Baha'u'llah was poisoned twice but God did not die perhaps because God intervened to prevent it.
    A lot of people are doing God's work but that does not mean they are a 'Messenger' of God. I am doing God's work right now but I am not a Messenger of God.
    I never said that all men who have followers are Messengers of God. Ex-president Trump has millions of followers but he certainly is not a Messenger of God.
     
  11. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Well, for a start, cursing the fig tree for something it had no control over does not show love, mercy, kindness, justice, benevolence, graciousness, mercy, righteousness, forgiveness, or patience.

    Also, do you think that the fig tree just went about like nothing happened after being cursed by Jesus of all people? The Bible clearly says that the fig tree never bore fruit again and indeed withered.

    But it does show he believed he had a mission from God, doesn't it, and that IS one of your criteria.

    Or do you go around believing that people declare things that they don't actually believe?

    Perhaps God could have intervened to stop him from being poisoned at all. Or perhaps God could intervene in everyone else's life and give us what we need to know the things that he sent Mr B here for. Seems like that would be a much more efficient way of communicating the information to us.

    Then why in the world did you list "firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God" as one of your criteria?

    I know a lot of Trumpers who would say otherwise.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Big deal :rolleyes: is all I can say to that. That does not prove Jesus did not have the attributes necessary to be a Messenger of God.
    Moses killed a man but he was still a Messenger of God.
    Lots of people believe they have a mission from God but that does not prove they really have one.
    Perhaps you should tell an omnipotent/omniscient God how to do things, as if you could know more than God.
    #2 is not a standalone. All the other things it says are also necessary. Notice the and.

    "He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do."
    They might believe it and say it but could they prove it?
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Then it seems the "love, mercy, kindness, justice, benevolence, graciousness, mercy, righteousness, forgiveness, or patience" stuff isn't actually required, doesn't it?

    Then I can conclude that this is the case with Mr B also.

    It's not that hard when you realise that God concepts need to be made deliberately weak in order to explain why the real world is the way it is, and then a bunch of excuses are made to justify the weakness.

    And yes, the guy I'm thinking DID do everything he could to see it was carried out.

    They can prove it to themselves, but not to anyone else.

    What's that? You don't find that argument convincing? That's funny, you seemed to think it was valid enough when you claimed that you had been able to "verify" your personal beliefs.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is required and Moses and Jesus had all those qualities.
    No, because Baha'u'llah actually had a mission from God.
    The real world is the way it is because humans made it that way and God is not responsible to clean up the mess that humans made in the kitchen since God did nt make the mess.
    What did he carry out and how did he know it was a 'mission from God?'
    Messengers of God make claims so they have the responsibility to back up their claims with evidence. By contrast, I do not make any claims, I have beliefs, and I am only responsible to verify to myself that what I believe is true.
     
  15. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    But they didn't. Jesus got mad and raged flipped the table in the temple, and unreasonably cursed a fig tree for something it couldn't help. And you yourself have admitted that Moses killed a guy. It seems that this "requirement" isn't exactly essential, doesn't it?

    You can't assume this, and you can't use your conclusion as one of the premises.

    Excuses excuses.

    Irrelevant. I suspect you're just trying to figure out who he is so you can let your preconceived notions tell you what conclusion you are supposed to reach.

    It doesn't matter what he tried to carry out, all that matters is that believed he was on a mission from God, and we know he believed that because he outright stated it.

    You've also claimed that your beliefs and interpretations are true, but you still haven't backed up those claims with evidence. In fact, the only "evidence" you've provided to support the supernatural claims you've made is the "I can't show it to you, but I've verified it in my own heart" kind of evidence, and you know what I think of that.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Anyone can say they are on a mission from God but that does not make it true. What matters is what He actually carried out, not what he believed or stated his mission was. As Jesus said:

    Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit
    Baha'u'llah backed up His claims with evidence and I told you what the evidence is on numerous occasions. The evidence does not magically become non-evidence just because it does not convince you that His claims are true.
     
  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    And the guy I'm speaking of did as much as he could to accomplish his goal, and he went a long way towards fulfilling it.

    There is no actual evidence to support any of the supernatural claims that Mr B made.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    All goals are not God-given goals so that is irrelevant.
    I never said that there was. Supernatural claims can never be proven. They have to be accepted on faith, faith with evidence.
     
  19. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Not sure Atheists will or can understand this answer :) Because if there is no physical evidence, they do not accept it to be a true experience :)
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yeah, I know that only too well. Believers and atheists are wired differently. :D
     
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