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lol! That's a good question.killah247 said:If Jesus is God, why were his disciples never called a *Prophet* ?
I guess I have a different definition of prophet. A prophet is someone who is chosen by God to relate the word of God to the people. They're role isn't so much to predict the future as it is to tell people when they have strayed from the correct path. Since Christians say that Jesus was God and Jesus told his disciples to go spread the word, it would make his disciples prophets.Linus said:Good point HelpMe. A prohet is one who tells of something to come. So His disciples would only be followers, not foretellers. There is no reason to call them prophets unless I missed something.
You do have a point here, but I think that prophets functioned while God was not on the earth. All the Old Testament prophets prophesied when God (Jesus) was not on the earth. But maybe when Jesus came to earth, they were no longer prophets. I don't know the answer for sure. There is a passage in Ephesians (Eph. 4:11) that says that Jesus, in order to prepare the Church for His departure, set up some people to be prophets and others apostles. So, there is clearly a difference.lilithu said:I guess I have a different definition of prophet. A prophet is someone who is chosen by God to relate the word of God to the people. They're role isn't so much to predict the future as it is to tell people when they have strayed from the correct path. Since Christians say that Jesus was God and Jesus told his disciples to go spread the word, it would make his disciples prophets.
Most self-identified Christians are trinitarians. And most trinitarian Christians would say that unitarian Christians aren't really Christian. If one rejects what is generally considered to be the central core of Christianity, how can one be a Christian?HelpMe said:*trinitarians* believe jesus was equal to his father.
Where did I say anything like that?HelpMe said:so yeshua was not a jew for he rejected many of the erronous jewish teachings of his time?
First, I did not mean Unitarian as in member of the Unitarian church, which is largely non-Christian anyway. I meant unitarian, as opposed to trinitarian - someone who espouses the unity of God. The Arians were unitarians.HelpMe said:i'm not a unitarian, i'm an arian(Joh8:38/1Joh1:3).
What is the central core of Christianity? I tried looking up the verses that you reference - near as I could make them out - but they didn't make sense to me.HelpMe said:the central core of christianity as layed out by the bible is more important than popular concensus, which centuries ago was to commit genocide(inquisition), simply because x amount of people do something does not make it alright.the trinity is not central, nor is their existence of it in the church prior to the third century.
I did not state it as "proof" of its veracity. I stated it because it is the most commonly accepted definition of Christianity. You can argue that true Christians are the ones who accept what you deem to be the central core of Christianity. And other people will argue that true Christians are the ones who accept what they deem to be the central core of Christianity. As a non-Christian, I will go with the consensus as to what Christianity is, just as a matter of definition, having nothing to do with the truth or falsity of either position.HelpMe said:the statement "most trinitarian Christians would say that unitarian Christians aren't really Christian" proves nothing for it may well be assumed 'most unitarian christians would say that trinitarian christians aren't really christian'.
you said i wasn't christian because i don't embrace mainstream christian theology.this is the same logic, applied to another for the cause of showing it's fault.as is evident by your response.lilithu said:Where did I say anything like that?
there is the belief that jesus was a mere man that lived a perfect life, he had no prior existence.the arian belief system believes he existed priot to his coming to earth.there is a distinction.i was not referring to uni uni, i was referring to this not you.lilithu said:First, I did not mean Unitarian as in member of the Unitarian church, which is largely non-Christian anyway. I meant unitarian, as opposed to trinitarian - someone who espouses the unity of God. The Arians were unitarians.
you are entitled to your opinion, i suggest you recognize though that it is your opinion.i LOVE to debate the trinity, you can use every verse you want, but this is not the proper place for it so i will suggest you take it into the biblical debate section if you really believe the nonsense you just spewed in my direction suggests what you think it does.do you honestly think i haven't seen those verses before?what was your goal in posting them?i participated in a lengthy discussion regarding john1:1(and i would assume more john verses) here.lilithu said:Second, you claim to be an Arian. But no Arian would claim that the central core of Christianity was to be found in John, which more than any of the other gospels presents Jesus as God incarnate.
the core of christianity is the messiah's teachings, not his identity.the verses i cited layed out yeshua's pre-human existence as clearly inferior to his father, they were not about the core of christianity.lilithu said:What is the central core of Christianity? I tried looking up the verses that you reference - near as I could make them out - but they didn't make sense to me.
christ or messiah, jesus or yeshua, is the son of el shaddaililithu said:Moreover, you still have not explained your view of what "Christ" is. If you call yourself a Christian, I would think that by definition you must believe in Christ.
No, it's not the same logic. There is a difference in rejecting what is mainstream versus rejecting what is core. One can debate any number of beliefs held within mainstream Christian theology and still be a Christian; but once one rejects the core, it is perfectly valid for another person to question the validity of the label.HelpMe said:you said i wasn't christian because i don't embrace mainstream christian theology.this is the same logic, applied to another for the cause of showing it's fault.as is evident by your response.
The point of contention is whether you are the kind of unitarian that I defined in my last post. Thus, you pointing to and denying a third kind of unitarian is not relevant. I was and am refering to a functional definition of the word unitarian, not a self-identified label applied to any religious group. If you say that God is one, then you are a unitarian, just as if you say that God is three-in-one, then your are a trinitarian. Since you denied the trinity, I assumed that you believe that God is one, and are thus a unitarian. Also, since you called yourself an Arian, this also leads me to believe that you are a unitarian. However, you and I seem to have different views on what an Arian believes, so it may be that you indeed are not a unitarian. Do you affirm the unity of God? If so, then you are a unitarian, regardless of whatever else you call yourself.HelpMe said:there is the belief that jesus was a mere man that lived a perfect life, he had no prior existence.the arian belief system believes he existed priot to his coming to earth.there is a distinction.i was not referring to uni uni, i was referring to this not you.
No, it's not, actually. I would not have an opinion on Arianism at all if it weren't for historical and religious books that have discussed the issue. My view of Arianism is what I've learned from mainstream academics. It is not just me deciding what Arianism is or is not.HelpMe said:you are entitled to your opinion, i suggest you recognize though that it is your opinion.
So you just threw your first post out there to be provocative hoping that someone would bite?HelpMe said:i LOVE to debate the trinity,
Nonsense? Spewed??! If this is your style of debate - to bring it to this low a level so quickly when I have said nothing personal against you - then we need not continue this discussion.HelpMe said:you can use every verse you want, but this is not the proper place for it so i will suggest you take it into the biblical debate section if you really believe the nonsense you just spewed in my direction suggests what you think it does.do you honestly think i haven't seen those verses before?what was your goal in posting them?
These are not uniquely Christian commands. These are from the Hebrew bible. To follow these commands does not distinguish someone as being Christian from being Jewish. If you insist that these teachings are the core of Christianity then Christianity as a religion does not exist, it is nothing but another form of Judaism.HelpMe said:the core of christianity is the messiah's teachings, not his identity.the verses i cited layed out yeshua's pre-human existence as clearly inferior to his father, they were not about the core of christianity. ]Mt.22:39-Andsaid to him, You shall loveyour Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind. 38This is the first and great command. 39And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. 40On these two commands hang all the Torah and the Prophets.
I never asserted otherwise. I noted that you did not follow mainstream doctrine and then asked you to define the way in which you are a Christian. When I did not get a response from you the first time around, I asked again what Christ means to you.HelpMe said:christianity by scriptural definition is only to follow christ(it is not by definition to believe he is equal to his father).
Thank you!HelpMe said:christ or messiah, jesus or yeshua, is the son of el shaddai[hwhy].the payment for the sins of those whom it was appointed(i, not being the judge, am not in a position to elaborate).
john5:26-For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself.
SOGFPP said:*** MOD POST ***
I moved this to a debate forum, so feel free to fire away!
Scott
as i stated, and tried to show you with scriptural verses, the identity of the father or the son is not the core.it is only the core of trinitarianism.lilithu said:One can debate any number of beliefs held within mainstream Christian theology and still be a Christian; but once one rejects the core, it is perfectly valid for another person to question the validity of the label.
i follow he whom is referred to as jesus christ, i am therefor a christian.if 6 billion people disagreed with me, it would change nothing.lilithu said:But I will question why someone uses a label that may likely be misleading to others.
there are many elohim.and so as to not object scripture(De4:35,mt6:24), trinitarians claim that 'god is one' so as to be aligned with that first cited verse.lilithu said:I was and am refering to a functional definition of the word unitarian, not a self-identified label applied to any religious group. If you say that God is one, then you are a unitarian, just as if you say that God is three-in-one, then your are a trinitarian.
if you say so, then trinitarians are unitarians as well.lilithu said:Do you affirm the unity of God? If so, then you are a unitarian, regardless of whatever else you call yourself.
i did not say that it was only your opinion, but the fact remains, it is an opinion, widespread or not.lilithu said:I would not have an opinion on Arianism at all if it weren't for historical and religious books that have discussed the issue. My view of Arianism is what I've learned from mainstream academics. It is not just me deciding what Arianism is or is not.
actually it was my second post, and i only posted it to clarify an often overlooked point.if i were trying to goad people into trinity discussions, i would jump at alot more posts, and would likely have a reference in my profile to something concerning the matter.lilithu said:So you just threw your first post out there to be provocative hoping that someone would bite?
actually you questioned my christianity first.something that, by your own admission, you are not in a place to debate about.lilithu said:If this is your style of debate - to bring it to this low a level so quickly when I have said nothing personal against you - then we need not continue this discussion.I have no personal stake in the gospel of John or the trinity, being that I am a Unitarian, afterall.
my only claim to arius' writings or calling myself arian is that it is what trinitarians acknowledge me or jw's(for example) as.it is not because i believe in everything the presbyter thought.me, and jw's for that matter, do believe in a pre-historical yeshua unlike the unitarians i thought you were referring to.there is no instance of equality between the two in scripture(to be elohim is not the be almighty).i do not deny yeshua's deity or divinity according to the technical definitions since neither mentions 'uncreated'.i'm sorry if you are upset that i have no interest in documents of arius'.if your assertions on what arianism is are correct, then i apologize as i was mislead ironically by trinitarians(if).your definition of 'unitarian' does not unify said subject to christianity, right?lilithu said:My reason for posting those verses was to show that the view of Christ presented in the gospel of John is of someone who pre-existed before the historical Jesus. That runs counter the doctrine of Arianism, as presented by Arius. I'm assuming that you call yourself an Arian because you consider yourself to be a follower of the Arian doctrine. If what I have been taught in books and school is mistaken, you might show me how - from Arius' writings.
judaism does not believe in the NT, and many many torah teachings are against that which was layed out as the 'core of christianity'.and yes, christianity is an extenstion(or 'another form') of the former judaism.lilithu said:These are not uniquely Christian commands. These are from the Hebrew bible. To follow these commands does not distinguish someone as being Christian from being Jewish. If you insist that these teachings are the core of Christianity then Christianity as a religion does not exist, it is nothing but another form of Judaism.
HelpMe said:actually you questioned my christianity first. something that, by your own admission, you are not in a place to debate about.
a mormon.HelpMe said:what would you call someone who believes 'jesus' existed prior to his life on earth, but not as his father's equal?
Or a Jehovah's Witness.painted wolf said:a mormon.