Prophecies

[Muslim-UK]

This is for Trinitarians Christians, Jews and Muslims to discuss Prophecies found in the Jewish Bible related to Jesus, peace be upon him.

Elsewhere I wrote: (Holy book woes)

"They need the OT for background information and so they can twist the Hebrew text to justify worship of Jesus pbuh. They use the OT and proclaim there are over 300 Prophecies attributed to the coming of Jesus pbuh and his life. One example is, a Young woman who gave birth, becomes a virgin who will give birth in the future."

 

[Muslim-UK]

I believe no justification is needed. Jesus is God without any help from us.

I believe you have twisted the data out of context. Talk about cherry picking!

Ok let's check to see if I'm twisting the texts. Could you please list 5 of the best Prophecies found in the Torah related to Jesus pbuh?

 

[Muffled]

Ok let's check to see if I'm twisting the texts. Could you please list 5 of the best Prophecies found in the Torah related to Jesus pbuh?

Isa. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isa. 53

Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee; for they are men that are a sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

Ps 22

Isa. 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.
2 And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Isa. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Thank you for participating in the thread.

Orthodox Christianity teaches Jesus pbuh is not Mighty God, Everlasting Father.

Isa. 53

Where does the context for Isaiah 53 start? Remember there was no numbered chapter and verses in the original Hebrew. Let me know so we can examine who the various characters being spoken about are.

Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee; for they are men that are a sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

I don't see Jesus pbuh mentioned here. Didn't the branch come from Babylon and rebuild the Temple? Verse 9 seems to indicate so:

"For, behold the stone that I have placed before Joshua. Seven eyes are directed to one stone. Behold! I untie its knots, says the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day."

Ps 22

Which verse(s)?

Isa. 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.
2 And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.

This refers to a very human descendant of King David pbuh. Jesus pbuh had no Earthly Father, furthermore, for the Messiah to be described as “a shoot out of the stock of Jesse,” means this glowing portrayal provides a glaring contrast to the one in Isaiah 53:1-2, where the suffering servant, whom the Christian commentators also identify with Jesus pbuh, is portrayed in sombre terms.

Since both of Isaiah’s prophecies (11:1 and 53:1-2), if they are to apply to Jesus, must refer to his first coming, we are faced with an irreconcilable contradiction, because the two accounts stand in stark contradiction to each other. These two prophecies are not applicable to one individual. Please explain which one you are going to go with and why.

 

[Muffled]

Thank you for participating in the thread.

Orthodox Christianity teaches Jesus pbuh is not Mighty God, Everlasting Father.

Where does the context for Isaiah 53 start? Remember there was no numbered chapter and verses in the original Hebrew. Let me know so we can examine who the various characters being spoken about are.


I don't see Jesus pbuh mentioned here. Didn't the branch come from Babylon and rebuild the Temple? Verse 9 seems to indicate so:

"For, behold the stone that I have placed before Joshua. Seven eyes are directed to one stone. Behold! I untie its knots, says the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day."

Which verse(s)?

This refers to a very human descendant of King David pbuh. Jesus pbuh had no Earthly Father, furthermore, for the Messiah to be described as “a shoot out of the stock of Jesse,” means this glowing portrayal provides a glaring contrast to the one in Isaiah 53:1-2, where the suffering servant, whom the Christian commentators also identify with Jesus pbuh, is portrayed in sombre terms.

Since both of Isaiah’s prophecies (11:1 and 53:1-2), if they are to apply to Jesus, must refer to his first coming, we are faced with an irreconcilable contradiction, because the two accounts stand in stark contradiction to each other. These two prophecies are not applicable to one individual. Please explain which one you are going to go with and why.

i believe Roman Catholics had the inquisition and some Muslims believe a person leaving the faith should be killed. There is no lack of false doctrine.

I believe Isa 50:1. The context of a Messiah is that Israel will be saved by Jehovah. I believe there is a double fulfillment of that, one that occurred with the first coming of Jesus and the other with the second coming.

I believe you are having problems with various spellings of the name. It can variously be Jesus (greek spelling) Joshua (modern English spelling) Jeshua and Yeshuah. Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee; for they are men that are a sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

I believe you are misinterpreting the text. Joshua is not the branch but stands as a sign of the Branch.

I believe only Jesus can fulfill this part of the verse. He has taken away the iniquity of all who call upon Him for salvation.

I believe Jesus is referred to as the corner stone.

I believe the verses 6-18 are the most pertinent.

I believe Jesus had an earthly mother.

I believe there is none. Isa 53 says this about His origen: 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground:
I believe tender plant is another way of saying shoot or branch. I once asked a Sabra (native born Isreali) how he translated branch and he said it was as a new growth coming out of a stump.

I believe I see no contradiction at all so what then are you talking about?

 

[Muslim-UK]

i believe Roman Catholics had the inquisition and some Muslims believe a person leaving the faith should be killed. There is no lack of false doctrine.

Ok so Jesus pbuh is God the Father as far as you're concerned. The same God the Father who demands people be killed for apostasy in the Torah.

I believe Isa 50:1. The context of a Messiah is that Israel will be saved by Jehovah. I believe there is a double fulfillment of that, one that occurred with the first coming of Jesus and the other with the second coming.

There's nothing about a first and second coming in those verses

I believe you are having problems with various spellings of the name. It can variously be Jesus (greek spelling) Joshua (modern English spelling) Jeshua and Yeshuah. Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee; for they are men that are a sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

The Greek is Lesous. Jesus is English. If you understand Joshua to be Jesus pbuh, then who is the servant referred to as the branch?

I believe you are misinterpreting the text. Joshua is not the branch but stands as a sign of the Branch.

Why doesn't the verse say, I will bring myself forth? You say Jesus pbuh is God, and thus the branch.

I believe only Jesus can fulfill this part of the verse. He has taken away the iniquity of all who call upon Him for salvation.

What are the seven eyes upon the stone? The verse says, "9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Not the World, just 'that land'. So it must be referring to a people specific to Palestine.

I believe Jesus is referred to as the corner stone.

No because as explained in another thread:
It's a physical Temple with a special cornerstone:

Isaiah 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. <<<< It's a physical sanctuary were people feel safe.

I believe the verses 6-18 are the most pertinent.

The context starts back in verse 52. Israel the people are told they will soon be redeemed from the shackles of slavery and persecution. Joshua would rebuild the Temple and the nation of Israel would come into glory. This would make the kings of the persecuting Nations shut their mouths. Notice in verse 15, it is these foreign Nations that are speaking. Then we come to Chapter 53:1-5 and read these Nations speaking in amazement at how the servant went from being disfigured, ugly and rejected by all. They had suffered misfortune after misfortune for their transgressions against God and look now: 1 "Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?"

The Gentile Kings of Nations continue to speak until verse 8. From 9-12 God is speaking, but to who? It doesn't say, well it does if you've been reading the Chapters before that introduce it..

52:13 Behold, my servant shall prosper,
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.

This servant is mentioned by name in....

41:8-9 But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;

44:1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
Israel, whom I have chosen.

44:21 “Remember these things,
Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant.
I have made you, you are my servant;
Israel, I will not forget you.

45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I surname you, though you do not know me.


48:20 Go forth from Babylon, flee from Chalde′a,
declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it,
send it forth to the end of the earth;
say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

49:3 And he said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”



Now we can see Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Lesous.

53:10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. <<< You might wonder why God is only making a deal with a single entity here, why not plural to denote the people of Israel? This is how Isaiah speaks, the collective Jews are addressed as one servant. Now we understand God is making a deal with Israel, obey me and you shall have children and live long.

Jesus as God the Father can't be making a deal with himself as another God can he? That's just odd to say the least. Gods are in agreement, no deals needed.


43:1, 10-11
But now thus says the Lord,
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.

“You are my witnesses,” says the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am He.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
I, I am the Lord,
and besides me there is no savior.

I believe Jesus had an earthly mother.

Yes from the tribe of Levite

I believe there is none. Isa 53 says this about His origen: 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground:
I believe tender plant is another way of saying shoot or branch. I once asked a Sabra (native born Isreali) how he translated branch and he said it was as a new growth coming out of a stump.

I believe I see no contradiction at all so what then are you talking about?

In light of what I've shown, I'm not sure what you're talking about either.

Are there any clear prophecies linked with Jesus pbuh in the Torah or not?

 

[Muffled]

Ok so Jesus pbuh is God the Father as far as you're concerned. The same God the Father who demands people be killed for apostasy in the Torah.


There's nothing about a first and second coming in those verses

The Greek is Lesous. Jesus is English. If you understand Joshua to be Jesus pbuh, then who is the servant referred to as the branch?


Why doesn't the verse say, I will bring myself forth? You say Jesus pbuh is God, and thus the branch.


What are the seven eyes upon the stone? The verse says, "9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Not the World, just 'that land'. So it must be referring to a people specific to Palestine.

No because as explained in another thread:
It's a physical Temple with a special cornerstone:

Isaiah 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. <<<< It's a physical sanctuary were people feel safe.




The context starts back in verse 52. Israel the people are told they will soon be redeemed from the shackles of slavery and persecution. Joshua would rebuild the Temple and the nation of Israel would come into glory. This would make the kings of the persecuting Nations shut their mouths. Notice in verse 15, it is these foreign Nations that are speaking. Then we come to Chapter 53:1-5 and read these Nations speaking in amazement at how the servant went from being disfigured, ugly and rejected by all. They had suffered misfortune after misfortune for their transgressions against God and look now: 1 "Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?"

The Gentile Kings of Nations continue to speak until verse 8. From 9-12 God is speaking, but to who? It doesn't say, well it does if you've been reading the Chapters before that introduce it..

52:13 Behold, my servant shall prosper,
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.

This servant is mentioned by name in....

41:8-9 But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;

44:1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
Israel, whom I have chosen.

44:21 “Remember these things,
Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant.
I have made you, you are my servant;
Israel, I will not forget you.

45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I surname you, though you do not know me.


48:20 Go forth from Babylon, flee from Chalde′a,
declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it,
send it forth to the end of the earth;
say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

49:3 And he said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”



Now we can see Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Lesous.

53:10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. <<< You might wonder why God is only making a deal with a single entity here, why not plural to denote the people of Israel? This is how Isaiah speaks, the collective Jews are addressed as one servant. Now we understand God is making a deal with Israel, obey me and you shall have children and live long.

Jesus as God the Father can't be making a deal with himself as another God can he? That's just odd to say the least. Gods are in agreement, no deals needed.


43:1, 10-11
But now thus says the Lord,
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.

“You are my witnesses,” says the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am He.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
I, I am the Lord,
and besides me there is no savior.


Yes from the tribe of Levite

In light of what I've shown, I'm not sure what you're talking about either.

Are there any clear prophecies linked with Jesus pbuh in the Torah or not?

I believe now we will get into Dispositional Theory. The SBC is big on this but I usually say they use it to dispose of the Bible. However the theory does have some merit. The theory is that God disposes as He chooses and that some things are time relevant ie for one period of time and not for another. So there are laws in the old testament that are relevant for what God was doing then but not relevant for what He is doing now. So the killing of apostates was relevant when God was trying to build a distinct religious community. I believe He is no longer doing that.

I believe this is first coming on the cross: Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair; I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
I believe this is the second coming: Isa 50:11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that gird yourselves about with firebrands; walk ye in the flame of your fire, and among the brands that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of my hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Jesus (/ˈdʒiːzəs/ JEE-zuss; Greek: Ἰησοῦς, translit. Iesous; Hebrew: ישוע‎, translit. Yēšū́a (Wikipedia) The beginning letter in Greek is an "i" not an "L". English is similar to German in that it takes "I" and "Y" sounds and uses a "J" to represent them. It is the same name but in different languages and scripts. Zech is naming the Messiah "[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua']Yēšū́a." [/URL]
He is servant, priest and king according to the text and in reality. The "Branch" is another term for the Messiah Jesus.

I believe this is the null hypothesis which means you have to provide reasons why it would be necessary for Him to say that. I can think of a lot of reasons why He wouldn't say it.

I believe this is it: Re 5:6 And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. I believe the seven is metaphoric because there is only one Spirit of God.

I believe there is nothing in that verse that specifically states that it is a physical stone.

I believe that is a non-contextual and unjustified jump.

I believe what I see is that you are blind to the truth because you see only what you wish to see. Your conclusion is false because your premises are false.

I believe it is possible that Mary is a descendant of both the tribe of Levi (priest) and Judah (king).

I believe I have shown them. I believe the lack of clarity is in your own mind but I will admit that prophecy is vailed from the foolish and revealed to the wise.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Thank you for participating in the thread.

Orthodox Christianity teaches Jesus pbuh is not Mighty God, Everlasting Father.

Where does the context for Isaiah 53 start? Remember there was no numbered chapter and verses in the original Hebrew. Let me know so we can examine who the various characters being spoken about are.


I don't see Jesus pbuh mentioned here. Didn't the branch come from Babylon and rebuild the Temple? Verse 9 seems to indicate so:

"For, behold the stone that I have placed before Joshua. Seven eyes are directed to one stone. Behold! I untie its knots, says the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day."

Which verse(s)?

This refers to a very human descendant of King David pbuh. Jesus pbuh had no Earthly Father, furthermore, for the Messiah to be described as “a shoot out of the stock of Jesse,” means this glowing portrayal provides a glaring contrast to the one in Isaiah 53:1-2, where the suffering servant, whom the Christian commentators also identify with Jesus pbuh, is portrayed in sombre terms.

Since both of Isaiah’s prophecies (11:1 and 53:1-2), if they are to apply to Jesus, must refer to his first coming, we are faced with an irreconcilable contradiction, because the two accounts stand in stark contradiction to each other. These two prophecies are not applicable to one individual. Please explain which one you are going to go with and why.

I can see you have no understanding as so many are blind, what is written in Isaiah 11:1 and 53:1-2 are about Jesus first coming.
You do as so many people do is you take one or two scriptural passages and try to build mountain of out of a little ant hill, which will not work.

The book of Isaiah is about Jesus first coming and Jesus second coming.
Because of your blindness you can not see, you walk around stumbling in your blindness that you can not see what Prophet Isaiah has written.

 

[Muffled]

I can see you have no understanding as so many are blind, what is written in Isaiah 11:1 and 53:1-2 are about Jesus first coming.
You do as so many people do is you take one or two scriptural passages and try to build mountain of out of a little ant hill, which will not work.

The book of Isaiah is about Jesus first coming and Jesus second coming.
Because of your blindness you can not see, you walk around stumbling in your blindness that you can not see what Prophet Isaiah has written.

I believe that is hyperbole. Certainly there is much in the book of Isaiah about Israel.

I believe that might not be his own concoction. I have seen it from Jews who take the egotistical view that everything in the book is about the Jewish people.