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Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by -Peacemaker-, May 31, 2011.

  1. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    Let me prefice this by saying I have my doubts either of us will convince each other of anything. This is the age of the internet and there is an apologetic for EVERYTHING. Each of those apologetics depends on the integrity, world view, expertise and motives of the one forming the arguement. At the end of the day G-d alone is our security and strength. Since you accept the authority of the OT and of the G-d of Abraham I start by praying that he would speak to us through his Word and that TRUTH would be the only thing that wins. I pray that the one true G-d would reveal himself to us. You wanted to attack them one at a time. These are from the website

    More Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus Christ

    CRUSHED FOR OUR INIQUITIES

    Isaiah 53:5-6 [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [6] We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 700 B.C.
    Romans 4: 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (NAB*) I handed on to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2011
  2. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I'll start out simply, and if necessary we'll get into it more deeply.

    Isaiah 53 is an example of the sort of declaration that the nations and their kings will exclaim when they witness Israel's rejuvenation. The nations will contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews with their new realization of Israel's grandeur.

    The servant of Isaiah 53 is the collective People of Israel.

    Additionally, there are a handful of passages which are wrought with mistranslations in Christian versions of the text, which severely distort their view of this chapter... one of them being this :

    Isaiah 53:8 Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people's sin.


    Footnote to this verse: When Israel's exile is finally ended, the nations will marvel that such a generation could have survived the expulsion from "the land of the living", i.e. the Land of Israel, that the nations had sinfully inflicted upon it.

    I want to direct your attention to something very specific.

    For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon THEM that was my people's sin.

    Who could "them" possibly be if we're talking about a particular individual?

    Contrasted to the KJV which says:

    for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.



    Let's now focus on verses 5 and 6, because those are the ones you presented.

    He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed. We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and the Lord inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.


    Vs your version which says:

    But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.


    Back to my version... footnote for verse 5: We (the gentile nations) brought suffering upon Israel for our own selfish purposes; it was not, as we had claimed, that God was punishing Israel for its own evil behavior.


    Let me direct your attention to something specific: It does NOT say "pierced". I get that Christian editors would want it to because of the whole piercing of the hands and feet that accompany crucifixion... but that sort of editing is like shooting an arrow at a blank wall, drawing a target around it and saying you hit a bullseye.

    The Hebrew word is m'cholal which means "makes sick", or "makes pained". There is no way, except for purposeful mistranslation, to suggest that it could be translated as "pierced".


    So, in summation, this chapter is not and cannot have anything to do with Jesus because it is about the collective nation of Israel. Only through violently ripping the text out of context while applying a heaping helping of mistranslations could one conclude that the passage refers to any one individual. Especially Jesus.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2011
  3. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    While I'm at it... here's what messiahtruth.com has to say regarding Isaiah 53:5-6.

    Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    There are a couple of problems with this verse. Firstly, saying that the servant is wounded "for our transgressions" can be a little misleading, unless you truly understand the meaning. For this reason, Artscroll’s translation is more accurate in saying, "because of our rebellious sins." One must keep in mind that it is not biblical sound to say that one man can atone for another’s sins. The Torah takes and completely destroys this concept.

    Secondly, there is a problem with the end of the verse, "with his stripes we are healed." This is another changing of tense to lead someone away from the true meaning of the chapter, the motive being that the Christian evangelists want you to think the healing is a continuous atonement, when in fact the healing is the end of the sickness of anti-Semitism that the nations will experience when they have this enormous revelation about the Jews at the End of Days.

    Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    This verse doesn’t fit with Jesus, because one man is incapable of atoning for the sins of many. This verse is talking about how the gentile nations had laid their problems on the Jewish people. i.e. inciting violence against the Jews with blood libels, ficticious literature like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.


    (The site actually provides commentary like this for every verse in the chapter. You can check it out here: Isaiah 53: Comparing Jewish and Christian Translations)
     
  4. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    When I researched this subject I'd heard that one of the primary charges by Jews in regards to the prophecies Jesus allegedly fulfilled was mistranslation of the Hebrew OT. I expected this would be a subject of our debate. I think it's safe to say that objections to all my texts will be based on alleged mistranslations of Hebrew. If we can't even agree that we're debating the same texts then we will be going in circles over and over. I think we need to address the issue of mistranslation first. This will take a little research but I will return.
     
  5. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    Last edited: May 31, 2011
  6. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Not all of my objections to your texts will be based on mistranslations. A great many of them, yes... but not all of them.

    And when that is a factor, I'll be sure to be as specific as possible.

    For my versions of text, I'll be using either the Artscroll Stone Edition Tanach, or the Complete Jewish Bible as found on this website: The Complete Tanach with Rashi - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

    Please let me know which version you'll be using. I have a feeling I'll be able to track it down online if I need to reference it.
     
  7. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    3,952
    I'd like to mention that my primary objection regarding your use of Isaiah 53 wasn't mistranslation at all. That's a secondary objection.

    The primary objection is ripping the passage out of context thereby stripping it of its real meaning.

    Consider the end of the previous chapter:

    Behold, My servant will succeed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty. Just as multitudes were astonished over you, saying, "His appearance is too marred to be a man's, and his visage to be human," so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouths in amazement, for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard.

    Leading into the next chapter...

    Who would believe what we have heard!...



    It's obvious that what we're dealing with is the reaction of the nations of the world at Israel's redemption from exile. Because just as they said "his appearance is too marred", they will say "Who would believe what we have heard!".

    It's basic reading comprehension. The only way for it to not be about what I said is for you to rip it out of context and arbitrarily strip it of its real meaning.

    The mistranslation stuff... at least as far as this prophecy is concerned, that's just icing on the cake.
     
  8. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,952

    Do me a favor. Drop this "I'm sure" crap and just deal with each passage and my response to them one at a time.

    I don't want to hear about what my objections are going to mirror, or who else said something similar to what I'm saying. If you have objections regarding my objections, present them. If you have a reason to think a claim that I'm making is in error, let me know what it is and why.

    Don't "expect" anything. Deal with what I say when I say it.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2011
  9. Pegg

    Pegg Well-Known Member

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    Here is a list of the prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ while he was on earth. The hebrew reference is first with a short description of the prophecy, and the vs's in the NT where the fulfillment is seen.

    Ge 49:10 Born of the tribe of Judah
    Fulfillment - Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14

    Ps 132:11; Isa 9:7 Isa 11:1 Isa 11:10 From the family of David the son of Jesse
    Fulfillment - Mt 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Ac 13:22, 23; Ro 1:3; 15:8, 12

    Mic 5:2 To be born in Bethlehem
    Fulfillment - Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42

    Isa 7:14 To be born of a virgin
    Fulfillment - Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35

    Jer 31:15 Babes killed after his birth
    Fulfillment - Mt 2:16-18

    Ho 11:1 To be called out of Egypt
    Fulfillment - Mt 2:15

    Mal 3:1; Mal 4:5; Isa 40:3 Person would prepare the people for his arrival
    Fulfillment - Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14; 17:10-13; Lu 1:17, 76; 3:3-6; 7:27; Joh 1:20-23; 3:25-28; Ac 13:24; 19:4

    Isa 61:1, 2 Commissioned
    Fulfillment - Lu 4:18-21

    Isa 9:1, 2 Ministry caused people in Naphtali and Zebulun to see great light
    Fulfillment - Mt 4:13-16

    Ps 78:2 Would speak with illustrations
    Fulfillment - Mt 13:11-13, 31-35

    Isa 53:4 would carry the sicknesses
    Fulfillment - Mt 8:16, 17

    Ps 69:9 would show zeal for Jehovah’s house
    Fulfillment - Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17

    Isa 42:1-4 As Jehovah’s servant, would not wrangle in streets
    Fulfillment - Mt 12:14-21

    Isa 53:1 People would not believed in him
    Fulfillment - Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16

    Zec 9:9; Ps 118:26 Entry into Jerusalem on colt of an ***; hailed as king
    Fulfillment - Mt 21:1-9; Mr 11:7-11; Lu 19:28-38; Joh 12:12-15


    Isa 28:16; 53:3; Ps 69:8; 118:22, 23, 45, 46 Rejected but becomes chief cornerstone
    Fulfillment- Mt 21:42, ; Ac 3:14; 4:11; 1Pe 2:7


    Isa 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of stumbling to the many
    Fulfillment - Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33

    Ps 41:9; 109:8 One apostle would be unfaithful & betray him
    Fulfillment - Mt 26:47-50; Joh 13:18, 26-30; Ac 1:16-20

    Zec 11:12 Betrayer earns 30 pieces of silver to hand over Jesus
    Fulfillment- Mt 26:15; 27:3-10; Mr 14:10, 11

    Zec 13:7 Disciples scatter in fear
    Fulfillment- Mt 26:31, 56; Joh 16:32

    Ps 2:1, 2 Roman powers and leaders of Israel act together against Gods anointed one
    Fulfillment - Mt 27:1, 2; Mr 15:1, 15; Lu 23:10-12; Ac 4:25-28

    Isa 53:8 Tried and condemned
    Fulfillment - Mt 26:57-68; 27:1, 2, 11-26; Joh 18:12-14, 19-24, 28-40; 19:1-16

    Ps 27:12 Use of false witnesses in his trial
    Fulfillment- Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59

    Isa 53:7 Silent before accusers
    Fulfillment - Mt 27:12-14; Mr 14:61; 15:4, 5; Lu 23:9

    Ps 69:4 Hated without cause
    Fulfillment- Lu 23:13-25; Joh 15:24, 25

    Isa 50:6; Mic 5:1 Struck, spit on
    Fulfillment - Mt 26:67; 27:26, 30; Joh 19:3


    Ps 22:16 Impaled
    Fulfillment - Mt 27:35; Mr 15:24, 25; Lu 23:33; Joh 19:18, 23; 20:25, 27

    Ps 22:18 Lots cast for his garments
    Fulfillment Mt 27:35; Joh 19:23, 24

    Isa 53:12 Numbered with sinners
    Fulfillment - Mt 26:55, 56; 27:38; Lu 22:37

    Ps 22:7, 8 Reviled by onlookers
    Fulfillment - Mt 27:39-43; Mr 15:29-32

    Ps 69:21 Given vinegar and gall
    Fulfillment Mt 27:34, 48; Mr 15:23, 36

    Ps 22:1 Forsaken by God to enemies
    Fulfillment - Mt 27:46; Mr 15:34

    Ps 34:20; Ex 12:46 No bones broken
    Fulfillment - Joh 19:33, 36

    Isa 53:5; Zec 12:10 Pierced in side
    Fulfillment - Mt 27:49; Joh 19:34, 37; Re 1:7

    Isa 53:5, 8, 11, 12 Dies sacrificial death to carry away sins and open way to righteous standing with God
    Fulfillment - Mt 20:28; Joh 1:29; 8, Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1Co 15:3; 11, Heb 9:12-15; 1Pe 2:24; 12

    Isa 53:9 Buried with the rich
    Fulfillment - Mt 27:57-60; Joh 19:38-42

    Jonah 1:17; 2:10 In grave parts of three days, then resurrected
    Fulfillment - Mt 12:39, 40; 16:21; 17:23; 27:64; 28:1-7; Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:3-8

    Ps 16:8-11, Raised before body experiences corruption/decay
    Fulfillment - Ac 2:25-31; 13:34-37

    Ps 2:7 Jehovah declares him His Son by spirit begetting & resurrection
    Fulfillment - Mt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11; Lu 3:21, 22; Ac 13:33; Ro 1:4; Heb 1:5; 5:5
     
  10. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    no prob, sorry
     
  11. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    Do you call changing the tense from singular to plural "icing on the cake"?
     
  12. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Pegg, I appreciate your enthusiasm, and I realize that this is a public forum... But I was hoping to move one prophesy at a time, covering each one with as much depth as jungle and I have patience for. He's got a list of 48, and we're just getting started. Feel free to participate, but please do so regarding whichever prophesy we're discussing at the time.

    I also realize that I'm not a staff member and that you don't actually have to do anything I say, which is why I make this request of you respectfully.


    The reason I didn't do this in one on one is because the nature of the format of formal debate would make each of us have to address all 48 in one shot. I prefer to cover each item one at a time.
     
  13. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  14. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    I'm using the NIV (new internationalversion). I'd say it's a pretty big freakin' deal changing he to them. It completely changes the meaning. You can find it at www.biblegateway.com

    8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]



    1 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
    2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
    He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
    3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
    Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
    4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
    yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
    and the LORD has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
    8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the LORD makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
    11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
    by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
    because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
    For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  15. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I don't need it to make my case, but it makes it a little bit sweeter. The site I posted shows a pattern of the Hebrew word being plural in many places throughout Isaiah.

    It just demonstrates the obvious fact that the servant of Isaiah 52 and 53 (and in many places throughout Isaiah) is the nation of Israel.
     
  16. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    From my point of view, I'd say its a pretty big freakin' deal changing them to he.
     
  17. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    The first thing that comes to mind is the fact the tense changes at Isaiah 52:13 from plural to singular. That's precisely the time Christian's interpret the prophecy of Jesus to begin and continue through the end of Isaiah 53. At which point it becomes clear the Lord begins talking to the people of Israel. Now my question to you is, if "he" is the nation of Israel then who's sins are they suffering wrath for? It sounds pretty clear that they're being punished for someone elses sins as if it was a punishment they didn't even earn or deserve.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  18. Pegg

    Pegg Well-Known Member

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    yes your right, one at a time is the way to do it


    I wasnt actually expecting anyone to attempt to reply to each prophecy though...i really only put it there for a reference :)
     
  19. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Jungle, your post deserves a thorough answer. However, I do that better when I'm posting from a computer instead of from my phone. I hope you don't mind if we leave it here tonight and pick it up tomorrow.
     
  20. -Peacemaker-

    -Peacemaker- .45 Cal

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    Sleep well
     
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