A child in religious families have no choice,who's going to ask a baby "hey do you want to get circumcised today?".
Saracens and Templars are history and no more,can't think of a single reason why anyone would choose either.
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Proof of Islam?
- Thread starter Wolf Spirit
- Start date
A child in religious families have no choice,who's going to ask a baby "hey do you want to get circumcised today?".
Saracens and Templars are history and no more,can't think of a single reason why anyone would choose either.
I don`t agree. every individual has the choice to follow his or her own path. I know people born in Muslim,Christian,Jewish family but they don`t believe, some call themselves Atheist... It does not mean that you are born in Muslim family means you are automatically a Muslim, you have no choice but to accept.The Quran decrees that every individual is free to choose his own course of life in social, economic and political spheres. Further, the Quran stops its followers from challenging another person’s freedom of choice.
The first major theme that unambiguously appears repeatedly is that God is the ultimate judge of all human action and everyone will be accountable to God alone. The three other themes are the limitations on the role of the Prophet peace be upon him in enforcing faith, individuals’ ownership of their actions, and humans’ freedom of choice in respect of their actions and beliefs. Let me share with you the final and last-to-be revealed verse of the Quran. This last direct message of God sums up all the main themes and puts a seal on the Quran: ‘And be conscious of the Day on which you shall be brought back unto God, whereupon every human being shall be repaid in full for what he has earned, and none shall be wronged’ (2:281).
God’s command is quite clear. Each person is free to choose and is responsible for his own conduct in life. There will be a judgement day, a responsibility which is God’s alone as the ultimate judge. Therefore, coercion is prohibited in this life, and no one has a right to force others to choose how they conduct their life.
The Quran is most emphatic about each person’s freedom to choose their own course of life. In fact this choice has been described as God’s will. The following verse shows clearly how God’s will acts. It acts through human action and the choices human persons make. According to the Quran it is God’s will for humans to hold divergent views (2:253): And if God had so willed, they who succeeded those [apostles] would not have contended with one another after all evidence of the truth had come to them; but [as it was,] they did take to divergent views, and some of them attained to faith, while some of them came to deny the truth. Yet if God had so willed, they would not have contended with one another: but God does whatever He wills.
This is repeated in 16:93 And if Allah had willed, He could have made you [of] one religion, but He causes to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And you will surely be questioned about what you used to do.
Such freedom of choice is also explicitly given in the following verses: 5:54, 6:104,10:40, 10:41, 17:105–108, 26:4, 28:56 and 39:41.
Finally I would like to finish with that verse in the Quran 18:29, God says ‘And say: The truth [has now come] from your Sustainer: let then him who will, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it.’
So everyone has a choice
So a baby has a choice to be circumcised or not?,I don't think so,later in life sure but with repercussions for some.
Duncan
Member
Looks like Islam is all about circumcision, speak your mind, what bother you in Islam, clearly it is not freedom of choice ( because I explained that everyone has a choice ) and it is not circumcision, so what is the big deal?
No it's not,it's about choice and for many Muslims circumcision happens 7 days after birth and no child of 7 days old is going to say "bring it on bro".
It's not just Islam that indoctrinates children into their parents religion,I went to a church of England school,many parents consciously choose a religion for their child.
Back to Islam,it's well known that in some places in the middle east you can't just all of a sudden become an apostate without any repercussions,where's the choice there?.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I show how the bible teaches me circumcision is about the covering of the heart and the Quran confirms it.
You speak about genitals.
Allah will judge us.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
How come Jews, Christians and Muslims latched on to circumcission? Abrahamic God does not have a form (or phallus). He just has to breathe in.
That is about half the way to heaven.
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I think what happened is the Jews started it from an ancient tradition practiced by some other ancient people, maybe groups they descended from or connected themselves to. Christians then carried this story but also abandoned it, then Muslims I think were impressed by Jews and older scriptures and picked up many traditions and ideas not mentioned in the Qur'an, like stoning, beheading, circumcision, many things from the Jewish laws, since there were Jewish converts and Jewish communities around and seemingly elitist about their ideas and traditions.
God gave the foreskin, the pubic hairs, etc, and luckily the Qur'an makes no mention of any of this.
In females, the pubic hair catches a lot of bacteria and protects the area, I don't trust any of these weirdo ideas coming out of writings put down in Persia which aren't in the Qur'an. I even find Persians and Persian culture to be pretty weird overall, not a fan, I think they are responsible mainly for almost immediately corrupting Islam through their joining up and writing these Hadithsm of things not found in the Qur'an or in many ways seeming to twist the Qur'an, in ways that are clearly inferior to the writing of the Qur'an. According to the Qur'an though, that was meant to be in order to divert a large portion of the people.
As for Amitabha, I worship Amitabha as the Dharmakaya, the meaning of the name and attribute is sufficiently appropriate and I had a dream which was sort of cool and scary which connected it to saving the dead.
There were a bunch of these skeletal people and reciting Amitabhaaa or intoning it was helpful to these dead people to get out of the darkness or line up to leave.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
True, but no one can deny what the Prophet (ṣallā -llāhu ʿalayhī wa-ʾālihī wa-sallama) said at Ghadir Khumm: "man kuntu mawlāhu fa-ʿAlī mawlāhu".
Duncan
Member
I believe I explained the circumcision and the health benefit behind it, this is a part of our religion and that practice was from our father Abraham peace be upon him, I never heard someone complaining because he got circumcised again his will, do you know any baby or kids or adult complaining of that practice?
now when a baby is born he doesn`t know about circumcision so as a parent you choose what is good and best for him since at that age a new born doesn`t have a freedom of choice.
So when that baby grew up in a family of a believer, it can be, christian jew Muslim hindou .... the kid learn culture, religion of his parents and forefather, when the kid reach an age where he can make his own decision then he can choose what is best for himself. He can choose to become a Muslim, jew, Idol worshiper ........
Now regarding the apostas, I am pretty sure you have absolutely no knowledge about it, but you probably listen to people who told you about it or the media, but I will tell you the apostasy in Islam. I have already explain the freedom of choice in Islam and that Islam recognizes the freedom of religion as a right for every individual. This is founded on the following Quranic principles:
“Let there be no compulsion in religion.” (Al-Baqarah, verse 256)
“Whoever so wishes, let him believe, and whoever so wishes, let him disbelieve.” (Al-Kahfi, verse 29)
The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him exemplified this teaching in his lifetime. He did not enforce Islam on anyone, including his family members but brought people to the fold of Islam through his message of social justice, equality of humankind before God and other enduring values to humanity such as compassion and kindness. He engaged others on Islamic teachings and belief through good words and deeds, and through exemplary conduct and virtuous mannerisms. In his covenant (social contract) with the inhabitants of the city of Madinah, the Prophet peace be upon him allowed non-Muslims to remain in their faith and accepted everyone as members of the same community.
Now as to those who decided to leave Islam, the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not implement any form of punishments. In a hadith narrated by Bukhari, a Bedouin who had pledged allegiance to the Prophet peace be upon him withdrew his pledge a day after he made it. The Prophet peace be upon him left him alone and did not order any form of punishments on the individual. There are also many other instances of those who left Islam but were not punished by the Prophet peace be upon him.
Notwithstanding the facts mentioned above, you will say : hold on, there are other religious texts which seem to suggest that religious freedom is not in line with the teachings of Islam. One example is the hadith narrated by Ibn Abbas: "Whoever changes their religion, kill them". Such narrations must be understood in the right context as a literal reading will lead to confusion and a misguided application of the rules of Islam.
Eminent Muslim scholars such as Ramadan Al-Buti, Ahmad al-Raysuni, Habib AlJufri, and Muhammad Imarah, explain that the hadith should be understood in light of the Quranic principle of freedom of religion and in relation to all other hadiths on the subject. Their conclusion is that this hadith was in relation to those who left the Muslim community and conspired with the enemy to destroy Muslims. There are also other hadiths (narrated by Bukhari and Muslim) where the Prophet peace be upon him spoke of both the act of leaving the religion and the political crime of treason. For example, Abdullah Ibn Masud reported that the Prophet peace be upon him applied legal punishment for “the one who leaves his religion and separates from the community” (Sahih Muslim). Al-Buti also explains that such legal punishment is only carried out if there are other associated crimes such as rebellion (alHirabah), as this significantly undermines and threatens the harmony and stability of society. This is a view held by earlier jurists such as Ibn Rushd and al-Shirazi. According to Shaltut, the hadith only applies when there is aggression and assault against Muslim.
The punishment by death stated in a hadith quoted above should be understood within this specific context. The sin of leaving the religion is purely between the individual and God, and hence worldly punishments do not apply in a situation where treason does not exist.
Sure cicumcision can be a health benefits of there's a health issue in the first place but for the sake of culture or religion it's not necessary at all.
There are hadith's that record how apostates were treated:
Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260
There are enough of such hadith that are sahih,such treatment of apostates adulterers sorcerers back then was standard in societies that were backward and ignorant,the real issue though is it's still happening.
Apostacy is still being punished,you can check this yourself by visiting amnesty international:
Countries which make apostasy a capital offense are Afghanistan, Brunei, Comoros, Mauritania, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.
These countries punish apostacy with a prison sentence:
Bahrain, Brunei Darussalam, Comoros, Gambia, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman.
So much for freedom of religion.
Well the reason I picked Templar is all the stuff they said about them, so by picking Templar I'd get to be a kind if Crypto-Everything, that is the one that might match up best, even though what was said of them is typically considered a myth. The accusation was that they were Saracens who had some pretty strange Late Antiquity mystic and even Diabolic type ideas.
So even though they might be a fantasy option, they sound pretty cool to me. I like both the Muslim armor sometimes, especially with a mask, and the Templar gear, especially when made composite with some Arab things, which some artists have shown them in which is probably a myth as well.
Ideally though, I'd always pick the non-organizational "leave me alone" type "my religion to me, your religion to you" type option without interference, doing whatever I please and which pleases me.
That is why I love and support anti-authoritarian freedoms, and wish for the destruction of most authoritarian, especially violent, obstructions to free exploration and practice of most religions with only minor legal restrictions like on harming life forms and doing gross stuff like molesting kids or whatever some pervert cults might try, otherwise, if they have the right to do that, I have the right to assemble people to go out and hunt them down and slaughter them.
That is actually how the gangsterism of this real world works.
Everyone is free, obstructed by one another, funding and supporting gangs.
A person like me would hide behind any group that serves the agenda of making my life more easy and comfortable.
If there are groups that would have me dead for my lifestyle or beliefs, I wish death upon them as immediately possible, every last one who wouldn't want me alive for the God I worship or how I worship God.
The Templars were put in an odd position where they were enemies to everyone, the Christian authorities got after them too in the end.
Now, groups that perhaps hope to dismantle Christian authoritarianism take the Templars as their founders, such as the Free Masons who believe, as I do, in One God and perhaps syncretize or include a lot.
The news, shows everything and everyone bad and evil, secular, militant, religious, atheistic, con artists, criminals. I turn off that Devil-Box as its annoying and there is no control and its endless anxiety and fear mongering.
Abraxas / Abrasax of the 7 Ruling Aspects, is dominant and manifesting everywhere through all things, the signs are put everywhere, and believing there is a control, a balancing power, that gives some relief from the anxiety of believing in a world out of control, tipped towards impending disaster, where if you sleep a spider might kill you too, you're not given a specific term of life, everything could happen, which is all true, but God is a mighty Salve. A psychological boon, a gift which, like Nietzche might have suggested, acts as a wonderful opiate which can relax a person, giving them unwarranted patience and confidence, especially in facing the fray.
So, I consider myself, an authentic fictional cartoon Templar, A Warrior Mystic who faces the obstacles created by God, whose life is dedicated to healing and...oh wait a second, the Hospitallers?
What medieval chroniclers said about the Templars - The Templar Knight
"
Templars versus Hospitallers. The two Orders claimed to be in poverty but many thought they just weren’t very good at managing the vast amounts of money being channeled their way. Nicholson mentions commentaries written at the time satirising the *****iness between the Templars and Hospitallers as each Order blamed the other for its problems. The loss of Acre in 1291 to the Saracens was even blamed on this running feud between the military monks. It’s certainly the case that when the Temple was wound up in 1307 – the Hospitallers wasted no time getting their hands on Templar property.
Losing the crusades. Rather like a football team, the Templars were hailed when they were winning but when the results from the crusades filtered back home and ordinary people heard that battles and whole cities were being lost to the Saracens – the Templars were increasingly bad mouthed. The view being – God was clearly not pleased with them. This view, Nicholson says, was increasingly prevalent in the second quarter of the 13th century.
Secret alliance with the Muslims? The Templars couldn’t win in the Holy Land. If they advised against joining battle – they were accused of being secretly in league with the Saracens. But if they threw themselves in to the fray – they were accused of being reckless. On one occasion, they warned of a massacre if battle was joined but when the secular knights insisted, the Templars – to their credit – joined in and were massacred alongside the people they had tried to save. Any time the Temple made a tactical treaty with the Muslims, this was construed as ‘proof’ they were working with them on the sly. "
Part 2
HISTORY OF THE CAT IN THE MIDDLE AGES (PART 2)
"
One of the earliest Christian writings documenting the
connection between sodomy and Islam was the biography of Saint
Pelagius by Hrotswitha, canoness of the Benedictine monastery of
Gandersheim in Saxony. In The Passion of Saint Pelagius (962),
Hrotswitha recounts the death of the young Christian prince
Pelagius (912-926) under orders from Abd ar-Rahman III (912-
961), Emir and Caliph of Córdoba. The modern story of Pelagius
states that he was martyred for refusing to convert to Islam, yet
Hrotswitha’s biography claims that he was killed for refusing the
sexual advances of Abd ar-Rahman. As Hrotswitha tells it, while in
the dungeon at Córdoba, courtiers noticed Pelagius’ “handsome face
and savored the words of his sweet mouth.”11 Aware the Abd ar-
Rahman was “debauched by the sin of sodomy” and that he was
“passionately fond of boys who were lovely of face, [and that] king
desired to unite with them in friendship,” the courtiers suggested
Pelagius be brought to court.
12 Once in court:
all eyes turned to gaze at him, to marvel at both the young man’s
face and sweet words he spoke. The king too, drawn to him at that
first glance, burned with desire of the good looks of that princely
young man. Finally, kindled with immoderate longing, he ordered
that Pelagius be seated with him on the royal throne so that he
might touch him ardently.
13
Hrotswitha’s writings often featured young pious women
defending their virginity, and her tale of Pelagius did not stray from
this theme. Abd ar-Rahaman tried several times to kiss the young
martyr, but “the soldier of Christ would not suffer this kind of love
from a pagan king who was polluted with the lust of the flesh.”14 "
All the accusations or many of them made against the Templars were implications that they were what the Medieval People thought the Saracens to be, sodomite, pagan, homosexual, cat worshippers of the Devil as a cat. The cat hatred was thought to possibly also be related to stories of Muslim fondness for felines including Muhammed's (Baphomet's) fondness for cats.
"
The “Spurious Letter” and perceived Muslim sodomitic
behavior found its way into other crusade chronicles as well. In his
The Deeds of God Performed through the Franks, a history of the
first crusade purportedly written in 1109, Guilbert of Nogent (1053-
1125) writes that the Turks “became worse than animals, breaking
all human laws by turning on men.”19 Guilbert also retells the story
of the bishop killed by the “nefarious sin” when he writes, “Their
lust overflowed to the point that the execrable and profoundly
intolerable crime of sodomy, which they committed against men of
middle or low station, they also committed against a certain bishop,
killing him.”20 Yet for Guilbert these are not isolated instances of
rogue elements within Islam, but are indicative of Muslim practices.
Guilbert wrote that, “although, according to their own judgment,
these wretches may have many women, that is not enough, but they
must stain their dignity at the hog-trough of such filth by using men
also.” Guilbert concludes by linking Islam with story of Sodom,
proclaiming “[it] is not surprising that God could not tolerate their
ripe wantonness, and turned it into grief, and the earth, in its ancient
way, cast out the excrement of such destructive inhabitants.”21 "
"Well into the Fifth Crusade (1217-1221), the association
between sodomy and Islam had become almost matter-of-fact in
Christian writings on the Middle East. In William of Ada’s De
Modo serracenso extirpandi (thirteenth century) Muslims, to whom
he referred as Saracens, engaged in a variety of sexual acts and that
“they have effeminate men in great number” who would dress and
act as women. Thus “men with men working that which is
unseemly…Saracens, oblivious of human dignity, freely resort to
these effeminates and live with them as among us men and women
live together openly.”22 As crusade after crusade failed to capture
the Holy Land from the “sodomitic Muslims,” tales of their sexual
depravity began to appear in other polemics against Islam.
It was not only crusade histories in which Muslims were
portrayed as sodomites; general histories and religious writings also
perpetuated the myth of the “sodomitic Muslim.” The theologian
and historian Jacques de Vitry (1180-1240), author of hundreds of
sermons as well as criticisms of the immorality of students at the
University of Paris, site of the French Templar trials, wrote of
Muslims in his Oriental History (1219), a history of the Holy Land
from the founding of Islam to his present day. De Vitry wrote of
Islam’s founder Muhammad that “the enemy of nature, popularized
the vice of sodomy among his people, who sexually abuse not only
both genders but even animals and have for the most part become
like mindless horses or mules….”23 Like Guilbert, de Vitry sees
sodomy as something inherently Islamic but also attributes a
geographic basis for it. De Vitry writes “in the East, especially in
hot regions, bestial and wanton people, to whom the austerity of the
Christian religion seems intolerably burdensome…easily embark on
the path which leads to death.”24 Crusade histories often relied on
scandalous tales and jingoism to galvanize support for crusading
missions, though it was not just histories that referenced the
perceived wantonness of Muslims. "
It is likely this confusion may have been due to the traditional Muslim clothing, which also confused audiences when viewing plays featuring the Muslim God, Termagant, whi became perceived as a female due to the constume and shrill dictation.
HISTORY OF THE CAT IN THE MIDDLE AGES (PART 2)
"
One of the earliest Christian writings documenting the
connection between sodomy and Islam was the biography of Saint
Pelagius by Hrotswitha, canoness of the Benedictine monastery of
Gandersheim in Saxony. In The Passion of Saint Pelagius (962),
Hrotswitha recounts the death of the young Christian prince
Pelagius (912-926) under orders from Abd ar-Rahman III (912-
961), Emir and Caliph of Córdoba. The modern story of Pelagius
states that he was martyred for refusing to convert to Islam, yet
Hrotswitha’s biography claims that he was killed for refusing the
sexual advances of Abd ar-Rahman. As Hrotswitha tells it, while in
the dungeon at Córdoba, courtiers noticed Pelagius’ “handsome face
and savored the words of his sweet mouth.”11 Aware the Abd ar-
Rahman was “debauched by the sin of sodomy” and that he was
“passionately fond of boys who were lovely of face, [and that] king
desired to unite with them in friendship,” the courtiers suggested
Pelagius be brought to court.
12 Once in court:
all eyes turned to gaze at him, to marvel at both the young man’s
face and sweet words he spoke. The king too, drawn to him at that
first glance, burned with desire of the good looks of that princely
young man. Finally, kindled with immoderate longing, he ordered
that Pelagius be seated with him on the royal throne so that he
might touch him ardently.
13
Hrotswitha’s writings often featured young pious women
defending their virginity, and her tale of Pelagius did not stray from
this theme. Abd ar-Rahaman tried several times to kiss the young
martyr, but “the soldier of Christ would not suffer this kind of love
from a pagan king who was polluted with the lust of the flesh.”14 "
All the accusations or many of them made against the Templars were implications that they were what the Medieval People thought the Saracens to be, sodomite, pagan, homosexual, cat worshippers of the Devil as a cat. The cat hatred was thought to possibly also be related to stories of Muslim fondness for felines including Muhammed's (Baphomet's) fondness for cats.
"
The “Spurious Letter” and perceived Muslim sodomitic
behavior found its way into other crusade chronicles as well. In his
The Deeds of God Performed through the Franks, a history of the
first crusade purportedly written in 1109, Guilbert of Nogent (1053-
1125) writes that the Turks “became worse than animals, breaking
all human laws by turning on men.”19 Guilbert also retells the story
of the bishop killed by the “nefarious sin” when he writes, “Their
lust overflowed to the point that the execrable and profoundly
intolerable crime of sodomy, which they committed against men of
middle or low station, they also committed against a certain bishop,
killing him.”20 Yet for Guilbert these are not isolated instances of
rogue elements within Islam, but are indicative of Muslim practices.
Guilbert wrote that, “although, according to their own judgment,
these wretches may have many women, that is not enough, but they
must stain their dignity at the hog-trough of such filth by using men
also.” Guilbert concludes by linking Islam with story of Sodom,
proclaiming “[it] is not surprising that God could not tolerate their
ripe wantonness, and turned it into grief, and the earth, in its ancient
way, cast out the excrement of such destructive inhabitants.”21 "
"Well into the Fifth Crusade (1217-1221), the association
between sodomy and Islam had become almost matter-of-fact in
Christian writings on the Middle East. In William of Ada’s De
Modo serracenso extirpandi (thirteenth century) Muslims, to whom
he referred as Saracens, engaged in a variety of sexual acts and that
“they have effeminate men in great number” who would dress and
act as women. Thus “men with men working that which is
unseemly…Saracens, oblivious of human dignity, freely resort to
these effeminates and live with them as among us men and women
live together openly.”22 As crusade after crusade failed to capture
the Holy Land from the “sodomitic Muslims,” tales of their sexual
depravity began to appear in other polemics against Islam.
It was not only crusade histories in which Muslims were
portrayed as sodomites; general histories and religious writings also
perpetuated the myth of the “sodomitic Muslim.” The theologian
and historian Jacques de Vitry (1180-1240), author of hundreds of
sermons as well as criticisms of the immorality of students at the
University of Paris, site of the French Templar trials, wrote of
Muslims in his Oriental History (1219), a history of the Holy Land
from the founding of Islam to his present day. De Vitry wrote of
Islam’s founder Muhammad that “the enemy of nature, popularized
the vice of sodomy among his people, who sexually abuse not only
both genders but even animals and have for the most part become
like mindless horses or mules….”23 Like Guilbert, de Vitry sees
sodomy as something inherently Islamic but also attributes a
geographic basis for it. De Vitry writes “in the East, especially in
hot regions, bestial and wanton people, to whom the austerity of the
Christian religion seems intolerably burdensome…easily embark on
the path which leads to death.”24 Crusade histories often relied on
scandalous tales and jingoism to galvanize support for crusading
missions, though it was not just histories that referenced the
perceived wantonness of Muslims. "
It is likely this confusion may have been due to the traditional Muslim clothing, which also confused audiences when viewing plays featuring the Muslim God, Termagant, whi became perceived as a female due to the constume and shrill dictation.
Not much has changed. Every single person should leave Islam, so that I have Paradise all to myself, with my animal friends and "new creations". Its so irritating if even a single nuisance person gets there, but I don't think any such will!
Hell will be the home for a great portion of humanity.
Henry Danet: The Story of a Knights Templar
The one who focuses on themselves, on God, on helping themselves, their families, and others. Will they really be like the people who make a nuisance of themselves? I see very little difference in the varieties of human filth and obnoxious behavior from humans regardless of their religions or hatred of certain religions, they are all the same, Godless, Faithless, Worse Than Animals.
The Number One Religion, the Religion All Humans Grow Up in is HATE, hating, being hated, seeing what is hateful, doing what is hateful, hating what is done, hating what is done to ourselves and others.
That is the way that God wants it, as nothing occurs except as whatever is the True Power makes it so, and HATE is what the God of All, Evil included or especially, wants.
Who can defy The God of War, Martian Overlord? Those who try not to hate, will be slaughtered and burned.
Embrace the battle!
Here is an intro I find very spiritual:
Hell will be the home for a great portion of humanity.
Henry Danet: The Story of a Knights Templar
The one who focuses on themselves, on God, on helping themselves, their families, and others. Will they really be like the people who make a nuisance of themselves? I see very little difference in the varieties of human filth and obnoxious behavior from humans regardless of their religions or hatred of certain religions, they are all the same, Godless, Faithless, Worse Than Animals.
The Number One Religion, the Religion All Humans Grow Up in is HATE, hating, being hated, seeing what is hateful, doing what is hateful, hating what is done, hating what is done to ourselves and others.
That is the way that God wants it, as nothing occurs except as whatever is the True Power makes it so, and HATE is what the God of All, Evil included or especially, wants.
Who can defy The God of War, Martian Overlord? Those who try not to hate, will be slaughtered and burned.
Embrace the battle!
Here is an intro I find very spiritual:
Is it posted anywhere yet? I'd like to read it!As I said in my post, there is a reason I have not read the Qur'an, and it is not through lack of interest.
The long story of how and why I became a Baha'i almost 50 years ago and what happened after that would explain why I never read the Qur'an. I never even read one page of the Bible until seven years ago when I first started posting on forums. I have had no interest in religion for most of the years I have been a Baha'i, but I never lost my belief in Baha'u'llah, or in God. Then seven years ago I decided to make another attempt at being a Baha'i, an endeavor that has claimed all my time. I have my story all written up so I could post it but this thread is not about me.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not want to start a new thread so I will just post it here since there has been some interest.
Here is my story as I related it to a Christian on this forum a few weeks ago. He was telling me about how he went from being a Catholic in his childhood to atheism in adulthood, and how he returned to Catholicism. The context is that he had a spiritual experience but I forgot all the details. So below is the story I related to him.
My story is no doubt a lot different from yours. I never really has any premonitions or spiritual experiences per se, except for the time when I first read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh with serious intent and absolute desperation. That happened right after I had a life crisis about six years ago and I was at the brink of suicide. I had been at that brink many times before but this time was different because I had come back my religion after a long hiatus about a year and a half before that, so I was at a different place in my life. Before that when I was suicidal I had no hope... Anyhow, what happened was that I picked up that book called Gleanings and started to read it on the bus ride to work and it just hot me like a ton of bricks who God was and who Baha'u'llah was, and I started crying and could not stop. That was the real beginning of my spiritual journey.
Mind you, I had been a Baha'i for about 43 years at that time but I was not engaged and I knew nothing about God because that is not why I joined the religion; I joined because I am an idealist so I was drawn to the teachings and the primary message of Baha'u'llah, the unity of mankind and world peace.
Anyhow, I started in the middle of my story, so now I am going back to the beginning. I like telling stories almost as much as I like hearing them...
To try to make a long story short, my mother and father were raised as Christians, Greek Orthodox and Anglican, but they both dropped out of the Church long before their children were born, probably right after they married sometime in the 1940s. To not be a Christian in the United States was practically unheard of back in those days. So my brother and sister and I never saw a Bible or the inside of a Church and we never gave it a second thought.
Then when my brother was in his early 20s he got curious about religion so he read about all the great world religions, especially Christianity. As I recall he told me he read the Bible cover to cover five times. Then after all that he discovered the Baha'i Faith and read about it. I do not recall how long it was before he became a Baha'i, but it was in 1968. Then he told my sister and me about it in 1970 and we both read about it and became Baha'is shortly thereafter. About five years later he told my mother about it and she became a Baha'i, so that was the whole nuclear family because my father had died in 1964, before he ever heard of the Baha'i Faith. My father had one sister who was a confirmed atheist but all my mother's brothers and sisters were either Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox.
I said I was going to try to make a long story short, but that has not worked out very well so far, so now I am going to try to be more concise and you can ask me any questions about the last part of my story if you want to. So after I became a Baha'i I had a lot of psychological problems. This was unrelated to the religion, but rather owing to the difficult childhood I had, so I was not very active in the religion for very long and eventually I dropped out of activities. I was in "recovery" for a long time, but I was also in college for over 15 years so I was very busy, However, I never lost my belief in Baha'u'llah, although I was not tight with God at all because I was never close to God in the first place, and I was angry at Him for my suffering for about 10 years before I returned to the religion..
The last part of this story starts in January 2013 when I decided to try to engage with my religion again and try to resolve my issues with God, and that is when I first came to forums. First In I started posting in a Baha'i forum and after that I branched out to other forums. That is when I started learning about Christianity and to a lesser extent about Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism. About a year after that I started my own forum but after that I started posting on a forum that was primarily nonbelievers and that became my primary forum until I left about two and a half years ago and came to this forum. I recently returned to that atheist forum so now I am here and there. I like talking to atheists because most of them are very sincere people, they just don't see any evidence for God. But also I have an atheist bent, although I never doubted God’s existence for one minute.
The last seven years has been quite a spiritual journey, and I think I have grown more in these years than in all the previous years put together, in spite of all the counseling and support groups I attended during the previous years. I believe it was my willingness to give my religion and God another chance as well as the participation in forums that helped me grow spiritually. I am quite an introvert so this gives me an opportunity to socialize without going out. Let me put it this way: My ordinary lifestyle is sheltering in place, so now everyone has experienced the way I normally live.
I sure hope I did not bore you to tears.
From my understanding Templars became the world's first real bankers and because Phillip of France owed them lots of money,he had a passion for buying relics apparently,he and others contrived charges to have them killed off and succeeded.
Anyway whatever happened back then is history and can't be changed but we can influence the future,freedom of conscious and religion without recourse should be standard by now.
As for hate,it's destructive to both the hated and those who hate so of no use to anyone really.
Anyway whatever happened back then is history and can't be changed but we can influence the future,freedom of conscious and religion without recourse should be standard by now.
As for hate,it's destructive to both the hated and those who hate so of no use to anyone really.
Ultimate Power is the Only God. There is no God but Ultimate Power.
God's Power is Demonstrated Through Violence, the Violence of Imposed Force, That You Are Made To Experience What You Do Not Want To Experience.
There is Nothing Truly Alive Except Ultimate Power, and Ultimate Power Needs Nothing, Appearances Only Worshipm The One Ultimate Power, any diversion from this is error.
What drives us is Ultimate Power, what we know as Self is driven, a thrall to Ultimate Power, it is lifeless illusion, an Eye for Ultimate Power to admire Ultimate Power in some way.
God is Life, Death, Terror, Violence, Destruction, Construction. Everything you see and don't see is under Ultimate Power, Moved by Ultimate Power, Your Intelligence, All Intelligence, All Simulations and Images however Realized.
Christianity is not the Truth, because it is flaccid, the God of Christianity is No God, because the behavior of the God of Christianity is senseless, arbitrary, foolish, which is all fine and good, but where the problem occurs is necessity, or the smallness of the God, going into Hades and preaching as a man.
That God is not Ultimate Power, that God is a joke.
The Allah that the Syrian Christiand call Father (Abba) is No-God, likewise, the God which lying Hadith lovers say that Moses spoke back to, corrected, and informed, is No-God.
God is Whatever is Ultimate, Ultimate Power.
You each are not truly God, because you're powerless. The Wind is not truly God, it is mightier than you but still dependent. Nor is the Moon God, though its Gravity pulls the tide up, nor is Gravity.
You will find God when you look further and further to discover the truth.
WHAT IS ULTIMATE POWER? WHAT IS REAL, REALLY THE STRONGEST, WHAT FORCES THIS ALL.
This is the only True God, not a Myth, nor a fiction, as You are Living It Now, and it is not even the Universe.
Baha'Ullah was nothing, Muhammed was nothing, less noble than ants, Christ was NOTHING.
Whosever gives themselves over to such things in fanatical admiration is lost, a fan, distracted.
What generates your moment to moment experience, the composite of fragments as they are, a force which can not be defied among all irresistable forces, whether you think, think you think, or do not think at all!
That is the real Allah, and any other way they use the word is a lie, and any other model is a lie, and any Allah which is corrected, any God which descends into Hades to preach, any God which struggles in combat, is a Lie.
That is true Islam, encompassing all truth, greater than all the varieties of lies given to the foolish destined to be defeated.
Whosever places their mind firmy upon The Ultimate Power, Before this or any Universes, Before this or any Laws or Sciences, Greater Greater Greater Greater Greater Greatest! Whoever purifies their mind, whoever finds what is Like Nothing but is Behind Everything.
There is the only One worthy of being invoked (God), of being called God.
They say "Allah" and their minds are directly wrongly. They say "Brahman", and false things fill their sensuous imaginations. They said Indra and lied about struggles with Vrtra, they said Jesus and lied about the Devil. The humans are weak, as weak as the strongest they can imagine, they are the weakest, same as what they think is least of all.
Who can place their mind firmly towards Ultimate Power? Who can cleanse their mind and purify their senses and religious practices? Who can kill the Buddha, and cast down all idols of powerless men and gods?
Your Gods are impotent, they are lesser, things are greater, and all great things are equally nothing before Ultimate Power.
Seek out Ultimate Power, and you may be led to bliss in this life and bliss in any other.
If you do not, know that you never had the power to do good or evil, even to yourself, but were just one of the many unfortunate creations of a Faculty you were never made to perceive, unlucky, accursed.
faculty (n.)
late 14c., "ability, opportunity, means, resources," from Old French faculte "skill, accomplishment, learning" (14c., Modern French faculté) and directly from Latinfacultatem (nominative facultas) "power, ability, capability, opportunity; sufficient number, abundance, wealth," from *facli-tat-s, from facilis "easy to do," of persons, "pliant, courteous, yielding," from facere "to do" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").
Let Dagon Teach You, Because Dagon Knows Best:
God's Power is Demonstrated Through Violence, the Violence of Imposed Force, That You Are Made To Experience What You Do Not Want To Experience.
There is Nothing Truly Alive Except Ultimate Power, and Ultimate Power Needs Nothing, Appearances Only Worshipm The One Ultimate Power, any diversion from this is error.
What drives us is Ultimate Power, what we know as Self is driven, a thrall to Ultimate Power, it is lifeless illusion, an Eye for Ultimate Power to admire Ultimate Power in some way.
God is Life, Death, Terror, Violence, Destruction, Construction. Everything you see and don't see is under Ultimate Power, Moved by Ultimate Power, Your Intelligence, All Intelligence, All Simulations and Images however Realized.
Christianity is not the Truth, because it is flaccid, the God of Christianity is No God, because the behavior of the God of Christianity is senseless, arbitrary, foolish, which is all fine and good, but where the problem occurs is necessity, or the smallness of the God, going into Hades and preaching as a man.
That God is not Ultimate Power, that God is a joke.
The Allah that the Syrian Christiand call Father (Abba) is No-God, likewise, the God which lying Hadith lovers say that Moses spoke back to, corrected, and informed, is No-God.
God is Whatever is Ultimate, Ultimate Power.
You each are not truly God, because you're powerless. The Wind is not truly God, it is mightier than you but still dependent. Nor is the Moon God, though its Gravity pulls the tide up, nor is Gravity.
You will find God when you look further and further to discover the truth.
WHAT IS ULTIMATE POWER? WHAT IS REAL, REALLY THE STRONGEST, WHAT FORCES THIS ALL.
This is the only True God, not a Myth, nor a fiction, as You are Living It Now, and it is not even the Universe.
Baha'Ullah was nothing, Muhammed was nothing, less noble than ants, Christ was NOTHING.
Whosever gives themselves over to such things in fanatical admiration is lost, a fan, distracted.
What generates your moment to moment experience, the composite of fragments as they are, a force which can not be defied among all irresistable forces, whether you think, think you think, or do not think at all!
That is the real Allah, and any other way they use the word is a lie, and any other model is a lie, and any Allah which is corrected, any God which descends into Hades to preach, any God which struggles in combat, is a Lie.
That is true Islam, encompassing all truth, greater than all the varieties of lies given to the foolish destined to be defeated.
Whosever places their mind firmy upon The Ultimate Power, Before this or any Universes, Before this or any Laws or Sciences, Greater Greater Greater Greater Greater Greatest! Whoever purifies their mind, whoever finds what is Like Nothing but is Behind Everything.
There is the only One worthy of being invoked (God), of being called God.
They say "Allah" and their minds are directly wrongly. They say "Brahman", and false things fill their sensuous imaginations. They said Indra and lied about struggles with Vrtra, they said Jesus and lied about the Devil. The humans are weak, as weak as the strongest they can imagine, they are the weakest, same as what they think is least of all.
Who can place their mind firmly towards Ultimate Power? Who can cleanse their mind and purify their senses and religious practices? Who can kill the Buddha, and cast down all idols of powerless men and gods?
Your Gods are impotent, they are lesser, things are greater, and all great things are equally nothing before Ultimate Power.
Seek out Ultimate Power, and you may be led to bliss in this life and bliss in any other.
If you do not, know that you never had the power to do good or evil, even to yourself, but were just one of the many unfortunate creations of a Faculty you were never made to perceive, unlucky, accursed.
faculty (n.)
late 14c., "ability, opportunity, means, resources," from Old French faculte "skill, accomplishment, learning" (14c., Modern French faculté) and directly from Latinfacultatem (nominative facultas) "power, ability, capability, opportunity; sufficient number, abundance, wealth," from *facli-tat-s, from facilis "easy to do," of persons, "pliant, courteous, yielding," from facere "to do" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").
Let Dagon Teach You, Because Dagon Knows Best:
Thats true, I enjoy having and using money as well and hording treasures like Smaug or Fafnir!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is the God that Baha'u'llah presents to us...
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73
“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209
“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284
But then Baha'u'llah does an about face and says that God is All-Loving and All-Merciful. I have a problem with that because I see no evidence for it.
Yeah, I don't know why he went into the sweet talk, its fine in a few senses or justified for me as follows:
What we know of as "Love" in any sense whatsoever is from God, and all versions of it are executed by God, and so whoever loves in any way any thing or experiences it in any way that is God doing it, so God is "God of Love, Love God" in that sense.
To suggest that God "only does good, never causes harm, is benign, is benevolent, is not the source of All experiences and things, is not the source and cause and manifestor of evil, that there are other powers not controlled and directed and executed by God which do this without God's direct responsibility and involvement and action",
that is completely out of line with reality, creates dualism, is "shirk" or making shared associations and other powers. Such lies create the "problem of evil" which is an illusory problem, which some silly people solve by saying "there is no evil" when that is simply untrue and instead the truth is "what you know of as evil and call evil and that it is called evil even is all directly from God, God of Evil, as well as what anyone considers good and that they call such good".
It is clear for all to see that this world is full of every sort of evil in every sense, people and children and animals and insects and even trees suffering terribly, even planets
It is clear also to anyone who understands properly that what has true power is unconditioned and not within or dependent on systems it creates and controls, and so God had no need and has no needs to create things this way, but did so not dependent on "having to" like many say with their No-Gods, their False Gods. Their concepts are God models which have powers causes conditions reasons forces laws over them, or they have forms, borders, limitations, distances, they are remote, they are bordered, they are "there" and not "here" so having limits, borders, dimensions in some sense, they are non-existent.
What is real is what corresponds perfectly to the way things are. It is clear that the moments appear changing but seem to cohere and leave an impression of not just senseless absurdity but repeated organization in the sense of the next moment seeming to make sense and move in order, that things aren't just popping into our view inexplicably constantly or are utterly unheard of.
In any case, the real God is whatever is the Ultimate Power behind whatever occurs, how it occurs, all parts of the experience and its being brought about, what generates the experience or any experience or information at all and its coherence as well as the unconditioned absurdity and baselessness it necessarily stems from.
Everything is "made up" and without basis. God is not bound or tied to any concept which it merely made up, justice, truth, good, are all its novel inventions and can easily be turned to nothing once more.
The omni-benevolent and "good" God who "does no harm" has no existence, doesn't exist even if they claim with lies that "God sits back and watches" since sitting back and watching requires a certain false model but even with such, anything which sits back and watches evil able to stop it is complicit and unjust.
So God is none of those things people say, is not the friend of everyone, is not their loving daddy, is not their guaranteed helper or protector, but if there is any friendship, God is its source alone, any help, its from God, same with every counter or negative. God is even the God of All Daddies, but Daddies are simply a novelty that God created, manifesting every absurd thing we take for granted and just think makes sense like "noses" or "seeing".
Anyway, any mercy that exists in any sense is executed by, created by God, but God is also the very same behind all horrible things as well, One Will, One Force, if God hurts or helps, creates misery or joy, none can do anything about it, the people aren't able to do anything themselves except what God makes them do, a completely helpless terror show, like the planets revolving around the sun, like the stars exploding and turning to black holes, like certain animals piercing and mortally wounding their mate to inject them with the next generation, a process leading to death as well as life. People don't investigate these things or ponder much on the true nature of this nightmare, one of an endless amount of possible things even utterly different from this exercise in thinking or particular meditation.
No one needs a leader or a savior except to look at the brutal reality and feel the call inside to ask to be helped and saved, and even then, many are instead of helped, led instead towards follow and destruction, so our state is perpetual surrender, willingly or unwillingly, force-fed whatever we are given, even how we perceive it, if we think its good or think its bad, our tastes are just more of the puppet play of "being" whatever we are made to be in the moment.
Nor does one escape in death, nor does one escape by suicide, nor can one ascend by meditations, by prayers, by hope, nor is there any who can save.
Very few even dare to speak frankly about the real Ultimate Power or seek it out, and what one finds at the end is that they are nothing alike to what is reflected on the glassy black surface of the Beginning and The End.