Proof of God!

[usfan]

Conversion is done in fear of death not evidence. Which plays into the carrot of heaven concepts rendering those merely bait or a placebo propagated by forms of theism.

The 'fear of death!', is common across all of humanity. Even those who embrace atheism as a worldview still have that uniquely human trait.

The 'atheists in foxholes' argument is about the stress of looming, imminent death, not the abstract angst in a time of personal reflection.

Most 'religious conversions', i would say, are not in the context of imminent danger or death. But most involuntary 'atheists in foxholes' responses are. So, why do even those who have convinced themselves that 'there is no God!', instinctively cry out to God to protect or preserve them through physical danger? Would not abject submission to the prospect of death be more reasonable?

 

[Shad]

So, why do even those who have convinced themselves that 'there is no God!', instinctively cry out to God to protect or preserve them through physical danger?

I told you. Fear of death. People will grasp any straw when faced with a high chance of their own death. It is why heaven concepts sell so well.

Would not abject submission to the prospect of death be more reasonable?

Ummm look up what a foxhole is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The 'fear of death!', is common across all of humanity. Even those who embrace atheism as a worldview still have that uniquely human trait.

The 'atheists in foxholes' argument is about the stress of looming, imminent death, not the abstract angst in a time of personal reflection.

Most 'religious conversions', i would say, are not in the context of imminent danger or death. But most involuntary 'atheists in foxholes' responses are. So, why do even those who have convinced themselves that 'there is no God!', instinctively cry out to God to protect or preserve them through physical danger? Would not abject submission to the prospect of death be more reasonable?

Because we have survival instincts and "ow god, NOOOOOO" is a figure of speech in most languages to express despair.

Case in point, I'm an atheist and I too, frequently use the phrase "ow my god" or "OMG" in messaging-language.
Not because I believe in God, but because it's a common expression to express amazement, enthousiasm, shock, despair, etc.
It's an expression.

It's like when a collegue finds something wrong in some client database and asks me "should I inform the customer" and I reply with "ow, let's not open Pandora's box and just quitely fix it...."

That doesn't mean that I believe in Greek mythology. It's, like "ow my god", just an expression.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The 'fear of death!', is common across all of humanity. Even those who embrace atheism as a worldview still have that uniquely human trait.

The 'atheists in foxholes' argument is about the stress of looming, imminent death, not the abstract angst in a time of personal reflection.

Most 'religious conversions', i would say, are not in the context of imminent danger or death. But most involuntary 'atheists in foxholes' responses are. So, why do even those who have convinced themselves that 'there is no God!', instinctively cry out to God to protect or preserve them through physical danger? Would not abject submission to the prospect of death be more reasonable?

You've misrepresented atheism at least twice in this post.

But anyway ...

Do atheists in foxholes actually do this? I've been in some pretty hairy situations and never have I cried out to a God I don't believe in for help. Instead, I tried to help myself.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Sorry if it already have been brought up, but I haven't got the time to read all the pages

Hi usfan

Here is how absurd it is in one sense.
If you could prove God, you would be greater than God, because your proof is, what would cause God to exist. Go figure, right? Well, if you with logical necessity can prove the existence, then since you are doing it, then you are causing the existence of God.

That has nothing to do with you in particular, but rather tells me you haven't studied epistemological rationalism and don't understand its limit. Don't worry, you are in good company, there are also non-religious people, who don't understand it. So my advice, read up on tautologies and vacuous in logic.

Now for logical necessity to hold for all of reality, reality has to be logical.
That can be tested.
Someone: Reality is logical.
And then I answer: No.

So for you to prove God, you have to prove that reality is logical. Reality is neither logical nor illogical in practice, rather you have to believe in logic to prove God.
You can of course claim that God is logical and thus reality is logical, than claim you can with logic prove God, but that is circular reasoning, because in effect you are doing the following:
You start by assuming reality is from God and God is logical and thus reality is logical. Then you use, what you assume, to prove that reality and God are logical.

You really ought to read some basic philosophy including logic, before trying to show prove God.

 

[usfan]

Sorry if it already have been brought up, but I haven't got the time to read all the pages

Hi usfan

Here is how absurd it is in one sense.
If you could prove God, you would be greater than God, because your proof is, what would cause God to exist. Go figure, right? Well, if you with logical necessity can prove the existence, then since you are doing it, then you are causing the existence of God.

That has nothing to do with you in particular, but rather tells me you haven't studied epistemological rationalism and don't understand its limit. Don't worry, you are in good company, there are also non-religious people, who don't understand it. So my advice, read up on tautologies and vacuous in logic.

Now for logical necessity to hold for all of reality, reality has to be logical.
That can be tested.
Someone: Reality is logical.
And then I answer: No.

So for you to prove God, you have to prove that reality is logical. Reality is neither logical nor illogical in practice, rather you have to believe in logic to prove God.
You can of course claim that God is logical and thus reality is logical, than claim you can with logic prove God, but that is circular reasoning, because in effect you are doing the following:
You start by assuming reality is from God and God is logical and thus reality is logical. Then you use, what you assume, to prove that reality and God are logical.

You really ought to read some basic philosophy including logic, before trying to show prove God.

Thanks for the patronizing reply..

1. If you really understood logic, and employed reason, you would not have deflected with a blatantly ad hominem reply.
2. Evidencing something, even abstract concepts, does not make anyone greater than the concept. That is a non sequitur.
3. Everybody believes something. They do so from the influences, perceptions, and EVIDENCE they deem credible, to arrive at their belief.
4. I live in a rational, orderly, empirical universe, and can draw conclusions about this universe based on the evidence i see. You do the same.
5. If all is but dream, then arguments, reason, and facts are useless, meaningless, and lead nowhere. Knowledge is unknowable, and epistemology is absurd.

Believe in God, or not. ..based on the evidence you see, and the influences in your life. That's all anyone can do..

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

Believe in God, or not. ..based on the evidence you see, and the influences in your life. That's all anyone can do..

You don't see evidence, because there is no evidence to see. Evidence is an idea in your brain/mind/soul.
If you claim evidence for what reality is independent of you as to e.g. God or not, I simply answer no.
You are likely a westerner, right? The idea of evidence is not Christian, it is Greek.
Your religion is a mix of God and rationality, but the latter is a Greek idea.
I don't do the Greek part as you do, because I am a skeptic. That is older than Christianity in cultural terms.

So if you admit relativism, "Believe in God, or not...", then how come you try to give proof for God?

 

[usfan]

You don't see evidence, because there is no evidence to see. Evidence is an idea in your brain/mind/soul.
If you claim evidence for what reality is independent of you as to e.g. God or not, I simply answer no.
You are likely a westerner, right? The idea of evidence is not Christian, it is Greek.
Your religion is a mix of God and rationality, but the latter is a Greek idea.
I don't do the Greek part as you do, because I am a skeptic. That is older than Christianity in cultural terms.
So if you admit relativism, "Believe in God, or not...", then how come you try to give proof for God?

You definitely have a Greek concept..

"Nothing can be known, not even this". Carneades (c. 214 - 129 B.C.)

This is just an absurdist view of Reality. It is only your perception. It is not provable Reality. My perception of a universe of empiricism, Reason, and order, where knowledge CAN be known, is equally valid.

Perceptions of Reality are not culturally or geographically dependent. There may be Indoctrination, but that does not affect objective reality, if it exists.

Everyone has to do 2 things:
Their own believing
Their own dying

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
Perceptions of Reality are not culturally or geographically dependent. There may be Indoctrination, but that does not affect objective reality, if it exists.
...

You said it yourself. Objective Reality is a conditional of IFF,
God could be a trickster and have created a natural world without souls and so on.
The natural world could be weird and you could be a Boltzmann Brain. So could I.

 

[usfan]

You said it yourself. Objective Reality is a conditional of IFF,
God could be a trickster and have created a natural world without souls and so on.
The natural world could be weird and you could be a Boltzmann Brain. So could I.

There are 3 possibilities, regarding the Big Questions, of Who, What, How and When..

1. There is a Spiritual Realm, with a/some creative Being(s), who inhabit eternity.
2. There is the material, only. Atheistic naturalism.
3. All is an illusion, dream, and nothing can be known.

1. Mysticism
2. Materialism
3. Absurdism

Pick the one you prefer, and maybe it doesn't matter.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There are 3 possibilities, regarding the Big Questions, of Who, What, How and When..

1. There is a Spiritual Realm, with a/some creative Being(s), who inhabit eternity.
2. There is the material, only. Atheistic naturalism.
3. All is an illusion, dream, and nothing can be known.

1. Mysticism
2. Materialism
3. Absurdism

Pick the one you prefer, and maybe it doesn't matter.

I go with Einstein:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Whether then that is #1 or #2 in effect, I really don't know nor do I care. So door #3 please.

 

[usfan]

I posted this list in another thread, but it is more relevant here. Most of these points have been addressed, but some are new.

There is inferred evidence for the existence of the supernatural, and a First Cause:

1. Human angst
2. Felt Presence
3. Universal Morality.. perception of 'good & evil'
4. Intelligence
5. Human consensus
6. Foxhole Atheists
7. The Universe
8. Probability
9. Hysterical Hostility
10. Presumption of Mass Delusion

These things are not empirical, but they have been part of the human experience since we have recorded our thoughts.

I recognize that Indoctrination/delusion plays a HUGE role in the perceptions about the nature of the universe. No one arrives at their worldview in a vacuum, but everyone is a product of the influences in their life.

How does one sift through the biases, Indoctrination, and worldly influence, to discover the Truth about the universe? Can that even be done? Are we just hopeless targets of manipulation in a spiritual dimension we cannot even see?

Has the god of this world blinded the 'eyes' of the unbelieving, so they cannot be reconciled to their Creator?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
I recognize that Indoctrination/delusion plays a HUGE role in the perceptions about the nature of the universe. No one arrives at their worldview in a vacuum, but everyone is a product of the influences in their life.

How does one sift through the biases, Indoctrination, and worldly influence, to discover the Truth about the universe? Can that even be done? Are we just hopeless targets of manipulation in a spiritual dimension we cannot even see?

Has the god of this world blinded the 'eyes' of the unbelieving, so they cannot be reconciled to their Creator?

No, not in practice with philosophy.
Start here:
https://www.iep.utm.edu/cog-rel/
https://www.iep.utm.edu/cog-rel/#H3

Now you can have faith, which you have, but truth died long ago in philosophy.
Münchhausen trilemma - Wikipedia

Please don't hijack philosophy to do something, it can't do

 

[Subduction Zone]

I posted this list in another thread, but it is more relevant here. Most of these points have been addressed, but some are new.

There is inferred evidence for the existence of the supernatural, and a First Cause:

1. Human angst
2. Felt Presence
3. Universal Morality.. perception of 'good & evil'
4. Intelligence
5. Human consensus
6. Foxhole Atheists
7. The Universe
8. Probability
9. Hysterical Hostility
10. Presumption of Mass Delusion

These things are not empirical, but they have been part of the human experience since we have recorded our thoughts.

I recognize that Indoctrination/delusion plays a HUGE role in the perceptions about the nature of the universe. No one arrives at their worldview in a vacuum, but everyone is a product of the influences in their life.

How does one sift through the biases, Indoctrination, and worldly influence, to discover the Truth about the universe? Can that even be done? Are we just hopeless targets of manipulation in a spiritual dimension we cannot even see?

Has the god of this world blinded the 'eyes' of the unbelieving, so they cannot be reconciled to their Creator?

So nonsense and lies are evidence for God. Color me convinced!!

 

[usfan]

Please don't hijack philosophy to do something, it can't do

Philosophy is just reasoning. It has limits, and it is powerless to reveal the Divine. But the Creator of Reason is a Rational Being, and reaches out to an irrational, foolish people.

'Come now. Let us Reason together..'

 

[usfan]

So nonsense and lies are evidence for God. Color me convinced!!

I would say willful blindness, irrational hostility, and the Uncomfortable Truth of the felt spiritual Reality IS evidence, that ridicule and scorn tries to drown out. But the soul of man is ready to be reconciled to his Maker, should that longing arise.

Even in the midst of total darkness and denial, the Hand of God can (and does) reach out and touch those trapped in the dungeons of despair.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Philosophy is just reasoning. It has limits, and it is powerless to reveal the Divine. But the Creator of Reason is a Rational Being, and reaches out to an irrational, foolish people.

'Come now. Let us Reason together..'

With reasons and feelings/emotions you can believe in a God. That is it. The rest is faith.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I would say willful blindness, irrational hostility, and the Uncomfortable Truth of the felt spiritual Reality IS evidence, that ridicule and scorn tries to drown out. But the soul of man is ready to be reconciled to his Maker, should that longing arise.

Even in the midst of total darkness and denial, the Hand of God can (and does) reach out and touch those trapped in the dungeons of despair.

It appears that your grip on reality is as poor as your grip on logic. How about not accusing others of your flaws and actually supporting your claims for once. Sorry but your so called evidence is merely wishful thinking. It is far from reliable. Yes, people have a natural fear of dying. That is about the only thing that you have gotten right. But getting that right does not justify your constant attacks against those that do not share your fallacious beliefs.

Do you think that you can support your beliefs with rational arguments? I would love to see that for once.

 

[tas8831]

1. If you really understood logic.

Hilarious...

Any rational person would read Hosea 13:16 and realize that 'God' is just what middle eastern thugs came up with to justify their bloodthirsty savagery.

 

[usfan]

Hilarious...

Any rational person would read Hosea 13:16 and realize that 'God' is just what middle eastern thugs came up with to justify their bloodthirsty savagery.

Any bigoted, anti-christian indoctrinee, i would say..

'Reason', like intelligence, wit, and stupidity, is demonstrated, not declared. The anti-reason that passes for 'logic!' among progressive indoctrinees has no progression.. no 'If, Then, Else' sequences, and relies almost completely on fallacies.. the EXACT OPPOSITE of Reason.

'..you will know them by their fruits..'