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Proof of God, when Jesus am God

Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Sheldon said:
Here:



Why would an atheist set a different standard for accepting an historical Jesus, than they accept for any other historical figure?
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I might have used badly written language in my reply there. Sorry about that.
I tried to tell questfortruth that his virw may crash with how as an example an atheist would want evidence for his OP.
And this time honestly did not mean disrespect to any atheist, you guys normally ask for solid proof, especially when talking about religious figure from the past.

That was my intention of my answer anyway.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
questfortruth said:
There are infinitely many proofs for Jesus's existence.
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The actual number is nil, same as the disproofs. There's no clincher either way.

As for Jesus being God, each of the five major versions of Jesus in the NT (Paul's and the four gospels') expressly denies he's God and never claims to be God. His promotion to God status doesn't come till the Trinity doctrine is invented in the fourth century CE.
 
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John53

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
Kind of like the black swan problem. It is pretty easy to prove the existence of white swans but impossible to disprove the existence of black swans. Unless one happens to be omniscient it would be impractical to even make such a claim.
Claims, even written claims are not reliable proofs. You got something else?
An infinite number you say. That is an awful lot. You must have something there that is more than a claim.
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Black Swans are a common species in Australia. I saw several while walking the dog this morning.

Black swan - Wikipedia
 
questfortruth

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
the Trinity doctrine is invented in the fourth century CE.
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No, there are verses about Holy Trinity in the Bible. Bible is not invented in 400 AD. For example, Jesus is pointing to the Holy Trinity each time Jesus saying: "My Father in Heaven has sent Me".

Nakosis said:
And you haven't been banned yet? RF seems pretty tolerant.
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Thank you, Jesus Christ. He has well protected me from all evil.

Sheldon said:
circular reasoning fallacy
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No, there is no circular reasoning. Do not accuse me of the thing I have not committed.

KWED said:
The magical character
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No. Jesus makes wonders, miracles. Devil makes magic, sorcery. We must speak with right words. For example, Police does not murder people. Police executes dangerous criminals.

Sheldon said:
Why would an atheist set a different standard for accepting an historical Jesus, than they accept for any other historical figure?
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Jesus Christ am God, please respect my faith confession.

KWED said:
Is that a rule?
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No, it is freedom: "in Love there is no rules".

blü 2 said:
The actual number is nil
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I disagree. Even I have many valid proofs. The proof is valid until it is disproven by all people, including me.

blü 2 said:
expressly denies he's God and never claims to be God.
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Jesus Christ has said many times in the Bible, that He is God to follow.
 
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Daniel Nicholson

Daniel Nicholson

Blasphemous Pryme
questfortruth said:
There are infinitely many proofs for Jesus's existence, and almost none of them are unanimously refuted. On the other hand, all disproofs of Jesus's existence are unanimously refuted. Hence, only one option remains:
Jesus is unanimously proven
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Compelling argument; care to elaborate?
By exist do you mean there was a guy names Jesus, the end? Or do you mean Jesus as described in the Bible is undisputed fact?
 
MyM

MyM

Well-Known Member
questfortruth said:
If a Muslim doubts Bible, he doubts the definition of Jesus. Because the Bible is introduction to Jesus. Hence, Koran depends on Bible.



"In War and in Love there are no rules." (c)
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I must correct you on this. The Quran does NOT depend on a book that God himself doesn't even endorse nor does Jesus. The Bible is made up of unknown authors, historians, theologians and who else knows but no where in the world does the Quran depend on a book with over 4000 discrepancies in it. The Muslim depends on the Quran and Sunnah of Mohammad pbuh ONLY. I can't imagine someone saying that God makes mistakes and then attributing a book that has mistakes, unto Him. Muslims and non muslims have every reason to say that the Bible is not authentic.
The definition of Jesus in Islam is follows:
He is indeed a miracle and was created by his Creator.
He is not God nor did he ever claim to be.
He is a mighty messenger of God who was sent down to deliver the oneness of Allah.
He performed miracles as like other messengers of God.
He did not die for he was taken up and will be coming back down at his appointed time.
He will fight the antichrist and kill him.

“O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (‘Be!’ and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rooh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory is to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs”
al-Nisa’ 4:171

“The Messiah [‘Eesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddeeqah [i.e. she believed in the Words of Allah and His Books]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them; yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)”
al-Maa’idah 5:75
 
DNB

DNB

Christian
Sheldon said:
Nice straw man fallacy. I disagree with him, because he's just constructed a risible circular reasoning fallacy, stacking up one bare assumptions after another. He also doesn't see to understand what proof means. I also am prepared to believe it is possible Jesus existed, that still leaves all your work before you, as his existence doesn't remotely evidence any of the divine or supernatural claims made about him.
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I am a Christian, but ardently do not believe that Jesus is God. But, as far as there being some evidence of his extraordinary life, I would think that there are grounds to entertain the notion. For one who was sentenced to death at around 33 years of age (causing many to lose faith in him), the impact that he left on the world up until this day warrants a rather exceptional explanation. Amongst many other things, even our calendar system, for the majority of the world, was based on his birth (regardless BC/BCE, AD/CE).
 
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questfortruth

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
DNB said:
But, as far as there being some evidence of his extraordinary life, I would think that there are grounds to entertain the notion. For one who was sentenced to death at around 33 years of age, the impact that he left on the world up until this day warrants a rather exceptional explanation. Amongst many other things, even our calendar system, for the majority of the world, was based on his birth (regardless BC/BCE, AD/CE).
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There is 4-th law of Logic: "Principle of sufficient reason". Your points are sufficient to conclude, that Jesus is Godman.
 
MyM

MyM

Well-Known Member
questfortruth said:
It is nearly impossible to correct paradigm of another religion. How can a Muslim correct Christian, and vice versa? We have different paradigms.



I believe in Biblical Jesus. This is not disputed within my Church. I do not care for disputes with other religions.
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So you dish it out but can't take it? Hypocritical

the Biblical Jesus is the same
it's your preachers that preach it differently

just saying
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
questfortruth said:
No, there are verses about Holy Trinity in the Bible.
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No, there are only a couple of verses that mention the Father, Jesus and the Ghost. There is no suggestion that Jesus or the Ghost is God ─ exactly in line with the specific denials of the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, and the denials of Paul on his Jesus' behalf, that any of them is God.
questfortruth said:
Jesus is pointing to the Holy Trinity each time Jesus saying: "My Father in Heaven has sent Me".
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The Jesuses of Paul and of John pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe because they're from the gnostic model ─ from Greece, not from Judaism ─ in which God is pure remote spirit and would never sully [his] hands by devising anything material, a job that falls to the demiurge ("craftsman") instead, which those two versions of Jesus fulfill. The Jesuses of Mark, Matthew and Luke did not pre-exist in heaven with God, of course, and did not create the material universe. The Jesus of John in particular is very specific about being God's agent, while making it clear he's not God. If you want bible quotes, just ask.
 
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