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Proof Jesus Wasn't God

mr.guy

crapsack
wanderer085 said...

Then it is not a god, it is a demon.I don't understand. What prohibits god from enjoying suffering?

Xianity seems to think god is not shy, so why doesn't everyone believe in the Xian god, if it is all-powerful? Is it too weak to convince the rest of us?Maybe. Or maybe he just wants to be noticed for who he is, not what he is. He's got a tough shell, i'll grant you.

The multiverse neither needs or wants a god.
And i don't want ice cream. What's the point?

Or more likely, these are natural phenomenon.
I agree. God seems quite naturally pretty mad all the time...
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"for who he is, not what he is. He's got a tough shell, i'll grant you"

"God seems quite naturally pretty mad all the time...:

How could you possibly know the mind of a supposed god?
 

mr.guy

crapsack
How could you possibly know the mind of a supposed god?

Oh, i'm sure i haven't a clue. Just musing on what could spark such poor behaviour, i guess.

Is that wrong?
 

may

Well-Known Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
You're right, He is subject to the Father for the time being, but only because He chose to subject Himself: "...but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:7-8

Just as God the Father is all in all, so is Christ. (Colossians 3:11)
yes Jesus certainly is obedient and willing to do the will of his father Jehovah God . and if we listen to Jesus and put into pratice what he taught and did we will strip off the old personality, no matter what race or nation we come from we can all be listening and trying to be like Jesus .
where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth´i·an, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all.colossians 3;11
Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.phillipians 2;5-8 yes, because of Jesus obedience to his Father he was exalted to a superior position.................. in fact right now he is a king in heaven , his father has given him kingship of the heavenly kingdom goverment Daniel 7;13-14 yes Jesus plays a very big part in his fathers purpose for the earth Daniel 2;44 its all happening in these the last days .
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Islam said:
Moon women Im dizzy from what uve said ur going everywhere.
Sorry you are dizzy but: I laid out a valid, logical argument and even went so far as to put it in an OUTLINE here. If you would respond in kind that would be great.

Throughout this thread I addressed one specific point, the Divinity of Jesus Christ as claimed by Him. Every post I've made in this thread is focused on that. Yet you continue to ignore completely what is presented.

Please do me the courtesy in future of reading the previous posts (#71 through 73) and responding point by point rather than cherry picking.

But no, if Jesus isnt the son of God which he isnt, that doesnt mean he was a lunatic God forbid or a liar. He never claimed to be.
As has been shown repeatedly, all throughout the New Testament including all four Gospels, you are incorrect. The few verses you have tried to use to justify your view have been shown by extremely competent exegetical scholars to be corrupted misinterpretations. Jesus made the claim to divinity many times. Please read and respond to those specific verses mentioned in prior posts and below, if you would be so kind.

Please also answer one question directly: why do you quote individual verses (incorrectly) as being authoritative while maintaining that the Book they are from is not to be trusted? Sorry, but that tactic makes no logical sense and destroys your own credibility IMO. If you wish to refute Jesus' own claims to divinity, using the very texts which make the claim isn't the way to go. As Christians we understand your position (which you have every right to claim as a Muslim), just not when it is (incorrectly) based on a book in which you have no real faith or academic expertise.

========================

[Matthew 11:27] [Matthew 12:28//Luke 11:30] [Matthew 23:34; Matthew 24:5//Mark 5:23//Luke 21:8] [Mark 9:42; Matthew 28:18//Luke 24:25, 46] [Luke 12:8-9; Matthew 26:64//Mark 14:61-4] [Mark 12:1-11] [Matthew 16:16; Mark 14:27; Matthew 25:17-46] [Luke 19:43ff] [Luke 21:14] [Luke 22:29; Matthew 9:2//Mark 2:5//Luke 5:20] [Matthew 8:21-2; Luke 9:59] [Luke 5:22, 9:47]









We close here by summarizing from Miller's trinity series - of which, we have not used ALL the cites directly:
Summary: The claims of Jesus in the Synoptics:

  1. To be the Messiah, the King of the Jews, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah
  2. To be the divine, eschatological Son of Man of Daniel 9 (considered blasphemous)
  3. To be the UNIQUE Son of God (considered blasphemous)
  4. To be Lord of the Sabbath
  5. To be able to forgive sins (considered blasphemous)
  6. To be an appropriate object of religious faith
  7. To be the Heir to God
  8. To be greater than King David, Solomon, Jonah, the Temple
  9. To be 'owner' of the angels and the Elect
  10. To speak eternally binding and existent sayings--on His OWN authority
  11. To be "able" to abolish the OT scriptures
  12. To be the authoritative interpreter of the OT
  13. To be the issue upon which the eternal destinies of humans depend(!)
  14. To be worth higher loyalty and commitment than the family
  15. To have EXCLUSIVE knowledge of the Father, and the SOLE 'dispenser' of that knowledge
  16. To send prophets
  17. To be omnipresent
  18. To be of equal status with the Father and the Spirit, and to share 'the Name' with them
  19. To be able to grant derivative authority over evil spirits
  20. To be able to grant kingdom authority IN THE SAME WAY the FATHER does(!)
  21. To be "God" visiting them (as promised in the OT messianic prophecies)
  22. To be co-operative/interchangeable in some operations with the Spirit
  23. To have special knowledge of heavenly events
  24. To have ALL authority in HEAVEN
  25. To have authority over the Holy Spirit(!)

Conclusion: The Synoptics, often considered to portray an "earthly Jesus" and not the "divine Christ", provide ample data for both! The claims above are simply TOO NUMEROUS, TOO 'HIGH', TOO consistently understood as being claims to deity (and hence, deserving the term 'blasphemy' by the Jewish religious establishment of the day) for us to make this Jesus a 'mere man--noble, sublime, wise--but still JUST a man'. No, the data is quite clear--Jesus reflected a self-consciousness of being God. There are times, predictably, in the economy of redemption, in which His humanity and servant-nature revealed itself, but those passages CANNOT 'explain away' the import of the above mass of data. The Synoptic gospels consistently portray a Jesus who understood Himself as the divine Son of God and eschatological Son of Man, and one totally consistent with the early creedal/liturgical forms of the church.

Thanks to J.P. Holding
 

FatMan

Well-Known Member
wanderer085 said:
In science, you prove the positive, not the negative. If one asserts that the moon is made of green cheese, then it is up to him/her to prove it, not up to me to disprove it. The same is true with god-believers, it's up to them to prove it, not up to me to disprove it.
This is not a scientific argument - it is an argument borne out of a thread starter that postulized he had "PROOF" that Jesus wasn't god.

When one claims to have proof, they need to make their point well known before it is accepted as valid. That has clearly not been done on this thread.

Please don't confuse somebody's ignorance with science.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
FatMan said:
This is not a scientific argument - it is an argument borne out of a thread starter that postulized he had "PROOF" that Jesus wasn't god.

When one claims to have proof, they need to make their point well known before it is accepted as valid. That has clearly not been done on this thread.

Please don't confuse somebody's ignorance with science.

In any case, the argument to which you were responding was flawed. In science you can never positively prove anything. You can amass evidence for a hypothesis, and that evidence can be overwhelming, but all it takes is a single piece of contrary evidence to disprove it. Science, then, often disproves things but cannot prove, beyond doubt, anything.

James
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Posts #71-73 and #105 are direct responses to the OP.

The OP is not discussing scientific evidence of the divinity of Christ. That is off topic and perhaps why we keep going over the same ground with no conclusion.

I would appreciate a point by point response to the posts noted.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
wanderer085 said:
"Once again, the burden of proof lies upon the accuser. Prove there is no God"

No, the burden of proof is on the positive assertion, not the negative, if you have firm evidence that god exists, please lay it before us.
Humanity has, for hundreds of centuries, assumed the existence of God. Therefore, in order to quell that assumption, the burden of proof is upon those who don't buy into the assumption. For centuries, humanity assumed the world was flat. the burden of proof was upon those who thought the earth was not flat.

Most of us prefer to assume the existence of God. If you wanna refute that, you gotta prove it. :inserts non-existent smiley wearing a wig and holding a gavel::
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
me! said:
Posts #71-73 and #105 are direct responses to the OP.

The OP is not discussing scientific evidence of the divinity of Christ. That is off topic and perhaps why we keep going over the same ground with no conclusion.

I would appreciate a point by point response to the posts noted.



Like I said. If someone wants to start (yet another) thread discussing scientific evidence of Jesus divinity, or whether there is a God, or if Jesus ever lived, or any other non-OP related topic please go ahead and take it to the appropriate forum.


This is a Biblical debate. The OP states that according to the Bible, Jesus never claimed divinity.
 

FatMan

Well-Known Member
Moon Woman said:
Like I said. If someone wants to start (yet another) thread discussing scientific evidence of Jesus divinity, or whether there is a God, or if Jesus ever lived, or any other non-OP related topic please go ahead and take it to the appropriate forum.


This is a Biblical debate. The OP states that according to the Bible, Jesus never claimed divinity.

Heck, I'm just waiting for the OP to give proof. Any proof.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This is a Biblical debate. The OP states that according to the Bible, Jesus never claimed divinity.
But that, in and of itself, is not conclusive "proof" that Jesus wasn't God. We can cite other Biblical examples that do point to Christ as fully divine.

The rub is that the OP cannot interpret Biblical passages in any objective way in order to use those passages as proof. There is no proof that Jesus is God. There is also no proof that Jesus isn't God. Faith does not depend upon proof. If the OP wants to assert that, by our religious writings, Jesus is not God, the OP would be in error. We wrote it -- we interpret it. I invite the OP to assert his proof using extra-Christian sources.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
sojourner said:
But that, in and of itself, is not conclusive "proof" that Jesus wasn't God. We can cite other Biblical examples that do point to Christ as fully divine.

The rub is that the OP cannot interpret Biblical passages in any objective way in order to use those passages as proof. There is no proof that Jesus is God. There is also no proof that Jesus isn't God. Faith does not depend upon proof. If the OP wants to assert that, by our religious writings, Jesus is not God, the OP would be in error. We wrote it -- we interpret it. I invite the OP to assert his proof using extra-Christian sources.

: where is that banging on the head smilie :
Sojourner, you realize you are just regurgitating what I've been saying over and over, right? Which is fine.

I'm finding it all a tiny little bit frustrating though. :cool:

I'd like to see us finish what's on the table before taking on another rabbit trail.

As to the sentence in blue, that would not be a Biblical debate would it.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
sojourner said:
But that, in and of itself, is not conclusive "proof" that Jesus wasn't God. We can cite other Biblical examples that do point to Christ as fully divine.

The rub is that the OP cannot interpret Biblical passages in any objective way in order to use those passages as proof. There is no proof that Jesus is God. There is also no proof that Jesus isn't God. Faith does not depend upon proof. If the OP wants to assert that, by our religious writings, Jesus is not God, the OP would be in error. We wrote it -- we interpret it. I invite the OP to assert his proof using extra-Christian sources.

Actually I take that back. I think you are missing the point, entirely as so many have done here.

The point is, did Jesus claim divinity. In the Bible.

See post #71.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
What could even possibly be "proof" for the proposition "Jesus is God"? Is it enough that someone simply claims to be "God"? What if we don't actually know what the person said, but only what an unknown person claims that person said?

In other words, what difference does it make whether the various authors (whoever they were) of the canonical New Testament wrote about Jesus claiming or not claiming he was "God"?
 

lunamoth

Will to love
lunamoth said:
How easily would you believe a person who says : "I am God, worship me."

But, what if you observed their life and listened to their words and came to that conclusion yourself?

Re: whether Jesus claimed to be God.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
doppelgänger said:
What could even possibly be "proof" for the proposition "Jesus is God"? Is it enough that someone simply claims to be "God"? What if we don't actually know what the person said, but only what an unknown person claims that person said?

In other words, what difference does it make whether the various authors (whoever they were) of the canonical New Testament wrote about Jesus claiming or not claiming he was "God"?

Okay time for a summary.

Master Debater: "It says right here in this book "The Evil Genius: Zagnut" that Zagnut the so called evil genius claimed he was 'just an ordinary guy', on October 12, 1894 in a conversation with a policeman, and again the next day when he was talking to his mother."

Other Debater: But that's silly. He said "he was just an ordinary guy on a mission from the devil"! You left that part out. Plus right here and here, and look over here, quote "I am evil." and again "evil, I tell you I am." and then he said "who couldn't look at me, and tell right away I am a genius. And evil." And there are 377 other passages saying the same thing! Plus all these other people who saw him and wrote stuff about him in here, not to mention the ... oh bother, there's too much to even list it all. That's what the whole book is about!

Yet Another Guy: Hey! There's no proof Zagnut the so called evil genius existed! Who cares! You can't tell anything by looking at a book written by 83 different so called eyewitnesses over a hundred years ago! They don't even agree with each other! None of this is scientific evidence! Get a life!

:angel2:
 

mr.guy

crapsack
doppelgänger said:
What could even possibly be "proof" for the proposition "Jesus is God"? Is it enough that someone simply claims to be "God"?
Is a claim to be god any more presumptuous than a claim for there to be a god?

If so, why?
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
mr.guy said:
Is a claim to be god any more presumptuous than a claim for there to be a god?

If so, why?

This is so off topic that it would make a fine thread all its own (of course in a different forum, as this one is for BIBLICAL debates).





In the meantime.


I'm still waiting with the chirping crickets for an answer.
 

Islam

Member
Moon Women Half of the Gospels authors arent even known! Even the Gospel of John, do u know it wasnt written by John? Look, if the Bible was the exact word of God it wouldnt have any contradictions and errors, which it does, unlike the Quran which has not a single one, on the contrary it has a whole bunch of scientific miracles. Not only that but the coming of prophet Mohammed was prophecised in the BIBLE ITSELF!

When Mohammed was at the age of fourty he would go and sit by himself at a cave at night. He would think about life and his people etc. How barbaric his people were and how they were at constant war fare. The Arabs even used to burry there children alive, thats how barbaric they were before Islam. Suddenly he herd a voice which said "read"! and he said "I am not learned" he was illiterate he couldnt even write his own name. And again the voice came saying "read"! and he replied "I am not learned" and the last time the angel came and said:

Read: in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
Taught man that which he knew not.
Day, but man doth transgress all bounds,
In that he looketh upon himself as self-sufficient.
Verily, to thy Lord is the return (of all).
(Chapter 96)

And that was the begning. This is the first chapter in the Quran. I didnt post all of it. But you see this isnt the news. The news is that this exact story was prophecized in YOUR BIBLE!

Isiah 29:12
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

(in Hebrew "I pray thee" isnt there).

Is this a couinsidence? Is it? Could it be? No it couldnt. Maybe Mohammed red Isiah and said that he will make this act? No this isnt possible because at the time of Mohammed 1400 years ago there was no Arabic bible be it old testament or new testament.

Isaiah continues and also says:

10 Sing to the LORD a new song, (the Quran in Arabic)
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
11 Let the desert and its towns raise their voices;
let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.

Now I am asking, where did Kedar live and who was Kedar?
According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.

And as time went by and Mohammed started preaching people to Islam he was persecuted seeing as the Arabs were pagans and worshiped more then 300 idols.
In the end, he was forced to escape from Mecca to Medina since they planned on killing him.

Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God's help) coming from Te'man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina was none but prophet Muhammad.

How do I know Paran is Mecca?
According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled and Ishmael settled in Arabia, specifically Mecca.

And God tells you in the Glorius Quran
"See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! " (005.075)

In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is:
1) From among the Israelite's "brethren", a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham meaning the Jews brethren.

2) A prophet like unto Moses. Christians say this is Jesus. There were hardly any two prophets ,who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).

THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA
Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca)!

"See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! " (005.075)

Was it another coincidence that Isaiah ties between the messenger connected with Ke'dar and a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sang unto the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11). More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah "For with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). This latter verse correctly describes the "stammering lips" of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. (the Quran was a verbal revelation unlike the Bible which was inspiration). Meaning God tells Mohammed through his angel Gabriel "Say!" and Mohammed says "Say!". "He is Allah the one and only" Mohammed says "He is Allah the one and only". "He Begetteth not nor is he begotten and there is none like unto Him" And Mohammed says it. Another related point is that the Qur'an was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty two years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28:10 which also speaks of the same thing.

One of the signs of the prophet to come from Paran (Mecca) is that he will come with "ten thousands of saints" (Deuteronomy 33:2 KJV). That was the number of faithful who accompanied Prophet Muhammad to Paran (Mecca) in his victorious, bloodless return to his birthplace to destroy the remaining symbols of idolatry in the Ka'bah.
Says God as quoted by Moses:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:19)

"See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! " (005.075)
 
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