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Featured Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Iymus, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    That is Deception and Romanticism from those of Trinitarian creed of men. Let them tell it the Trinitarian Creed came from Mt Sinai.

    ---------------------------------------------

    That is why they are oblivious to:

    Lord God is our God and Father

    Our Lord is his only begotten son.

    1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    ---------------------------

    Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
     
  2. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Son of God is not God but Son of him.

    Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


    2. Yes worshiping the Father of spirits in Spirit and Truth.

    Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    3. Being God involves being the originator of fulness and divinity

    Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

    Col 1:19
    For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You've raised an interesting point, which we need to look at carefully.

    Firstly, we should be clear that scripture does not use the expression 'eternally begotten'. These are your words.

    This is what Paul says to the Galatians,
    'But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.'

    Add to this the following from Luke 3, 'And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.'

    From these two passages, we see that God sends forth his Son to redeem them that are under the law. The Son that he sends forth is 'made of a woman', brought up 'under the law', and baptised with the Holy Spirit. At his baptism, God's voice calls Jesus 'my beloved Son' and says 'in thee I am well pleased'. To have been well pleased, God must have been speaking about the righteousness of Jesus' life prior to baptism.

    What we have is a righteous mortal vessel, Jesus, into which is poured the fulness of the Godhead bodily, the Holy Spirit. What we have is someone who is fully human, and yet fully God. The one thing that has not yet happened to Jesus Christ is crucifixion and resurrection. This changes him, because it makes him immortal. Christ is the firstfruits of the harvest, the first mortal to receive eternal life. That is why at resurrection God says, 'this day have I begotten thee', because what God gives to Jesus Christ is eternal life - 'no more to return to corruption'. The Spirit that left Jesus at the time of his crucifixion returns to him at resurrection.

    To take it one step further, here are the words of John. 'For he whom God hath sent [Jesus] speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.'
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The expression 'Son of God' informs us that Jesus Christ was fully human, and fully God. Jesus of Nazareth had a body, a soul, and a spirit. He also, at about thirty years of age, received the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, at baptism.

    Look, now, at the last of your quoted scriptures. It says, 'For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;' [Col.1:19] Did you realise when you quoted this passage that it was talking about Jesus Christ? 'ALL FULNESS DWELL' means that Jesus had the fulness of the Godhead bodily! God was in Jesus reconciling the world to himself! God condescended to take on flesh for our sakes! If God had not taken on flesh then it would not have been possible to pay the prescribed penalty for sin, which is death. Jesus came to die! He died, and being an acceptable sacrifice, was raised to life again.
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Here's something else I should have responded to earlier.

    You say that, 'A man that does not sin is a man that does not sin'. Well, no! A man that does not sin is not born of the generations of Adam.

    What does scripture say about men and their sinfulness? It says,

    • 'for there is no man that sinneth not' [1 Kings 8:46]
    • 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.' [1 John 1:8]
    • 'If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.' [1 John 1:10]
    • 'As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:' [Romans 3:10]
    • 'there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [Psalm 14:3]
    • 'For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;' [Romans 3:23]

    If Mary's conception had not been miraculous, then Jesus would have been born in sin. All men are born in sin. That must mean that Jesus is no ordinary man. He was the only completely sinless man to have walked the earth. That also qualifies him as the Son of God, where the emphasis is on his divinity.
     
  6. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Literally and Figuratively God is not and never was a man or son of man; Never made flesh.

    Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    2. The God and Father of the Son of Man revealed to Peter that Jesus is Son of The Living God our Father.

    Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    3. Fully is fluff. Man is Man; God is God. Man and Son of Man and Son of God is not God because God is our Father and greater / above all "Eph 4:6". The Father is God "Joh 8:42". Call No Man Father.

    Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    4. As I already mentioned; "Being God involves being the originator of fulness and divinity". The God and Father of our lord is originator of fulness and divinity.

    Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

    Col 1:19
    For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
     
  7. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. A man that does not sin is a man that does not sin.

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    2. Either way Lord God numbered him with the transgressors.

    Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    3. A being that does not sin is a being that does not sin. Angels that have not fallen have not sinned. Just because unfallen Angels have not sinned does not make them God. Likewise A man that does not sin is a man that not sin.
     
    #107 Iymus, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It's true, God is not a man. God is Spirit [John 4:24]. Man is made up of a body, a soul and a spirit [1 Thess. 5:23]. Since man is fallen, then his spirit needs baptism in the Holy Spirit. This is man's reconnection to God, and it's God's Spirit that gives life to the soul. Ultimately, it's the Holy Spirit that gives life to both our body and soul in resurrection.

    Look at the scriptures that you have quoted above, and tell me which of them refer to Jesus Christ when he is still in his corruptible body of flesh. Although recognised as the Son of God prior to the crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus Christ is not made immortal until after his flesh, in which he bore the sins of others, had been crucified. Only when he has ascended to his throne in heaven does he assume authority over all things.

    Thomas said to the resurrected Jesus, 'My Lord and my God'. Was he wrong to say this? Not at all. Nor did Jesus criticise him for saying it.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    A man that does not sin, is a man that does not exist. The reason that sinless Jesus is numbered amongst the transgressors is that he chose to take the punishment for sin upon himself! He was the unblemished Lamb of God.

    Even angels fall short of the glory of God, which is why they worship at his throne.
     
    #109 Redemptionsong, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  10. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Son of living God before he was made flesh ; Son of living God after death and Resurrection.

    Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    2. Thomas is seemingly misunderstood and his words are not expedient compared to Jesus; They must conform to his word

    Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    3. What is written is so that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God our Father and that you might have life thru his name he came in.

    Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

    4. Prayer is said to be a form or type of worship and Jesus prayed to his God and Father multiple times.

    5. Angels understand that:

    Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
     
    #110 Iymus, Jan 10, 2020
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  11. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    In a car accident, you have to rely on an eyewitness to describe the moment of the incident. You can't be more accurate than the one saw with his own eyes. This is how the process of human witnessing works.

    You can't be more credible to claim otherwise when Thomas called Jesus God.
     
  12. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    Thomas did not call Jesus his God and Father therefore Thomas did not call Jesus God.

    Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Joh 8:42
    Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Point 1. You agree, therefore, that Jesus Christ is God. Who else can be said to be 'the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever'? And yes, the Son existed with the Father before he came into the world, and is reunited with the Father when back in heaven. Is the Son a different Spirit from the Father? Of course not. Yet, according to your Unitarian belief the Son cannot be the same Spirit as the Father. If Jesus Christ is the same Spirit as the Father, then you have God on earth. This you reject.

    Point 2. What do you mean 'Thomas is seemingly misunderstood'? Are you saying that Thomas meant something else? If so, what? If he meant what he said, was he mistaken? Then why didn't Jesus correct him?
    John 20:17 is Jesus speaking as the Son of God, for, as he says, he has not yet ascended to his Father in heaven. Only when he ascends to the throne is he given authority over all things in heaven and on earth.

    Point 3. So Jesus Christ does not, according to you, have life in himself! You say that you use the name of Jesus to access the life that exists in the Father alone. Yet, if you read John 5:26 it says, 'For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;' Jesus Christ is given the authority of God. This is confirmed in the following verse, John 5:27, 'And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.'

    Point 4. Yes, when Jesus Christ walked the earth he prayed to his Father in heaven. This is because he is the Son looking up to the Father. To the soul of Jesus, the Spirit in heaven is his God.

    Point 5. Ephesians 4:6, yet another passage that confirms the trinitarian position. There is ONE GOD, who condescends to enter the world in order to redeem it. Father (above), Son (through), and Holy Spirit (within). Yet all are the same Spirit as the Father.

    P1. God alone gives eternal life [Titus 1:2]
    P2. Jesus Christ gives eternal life [Roman 6:23; John 11:25; 1John 5:11]
    C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God [Romans 5:21]
     
    #113 Redemptionsong, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  14. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    If you have to lie then keep that to yourself.

    John 20:28 (NRSV)
    Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

    John 20:28 (NIV)
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    John 20:28 (KJV)
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 20:28 (NASB)
    Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

    John 20:28 (ESV)
    Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

    John 20:28 (ASV)
    Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
     
  15. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Son of God is not God but Son of God. God is himself and Son of God is himself. "2Jn 1:3"

    2. Thomas did not say that Jesus is his God and Father therefore Thomas did not say that Jesus is God.

    3. Without The God and Father of Jesus, Jesus can do nothing of himself and would not have life in himself "Joh 5:19 - John 5:30" emphasis on verses 19, 26, and 30.

    4. He prayed to the Heavenly Father because his God and Father is greater than all " John 10:29".

    5. Self Explanatory

    Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
     
  16. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. You quoting John 20:28 as a kid in a candy shop or as if you have the high ground.:D

    2. If I am a Cannibal and I look for verses that seem to be pro or support Cannibalism;

    Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    That does not mean that it is lawful or right for people to literally eat other people.

    3. The following is what is expedient.

    1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

    1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    4. Do not get it twisted. God our Father himself raised up our Lord by his own power / will.

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

    5. Do not get it twisted God our Father is Lord of Heaven and Earth therefore Lord God

    Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    6. Do not get it twisted Lord God appointed our lord, lord of all things / creation

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    7.
    Self Explanatory

    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    8. Self Explanatory

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
     
    #116 Iymus, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  17. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    You don't have the credibility to claim to be more correct than all the Bible translations, which makes you a pure liar!
     
  18. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    2Tim3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2Tim3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Comandment of God + Faith of Jesus is The Lord our God The Father is one will/authority and greater than all and only true God himself.
     
    #118 Iymus, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Point 1. In coming to earth, God chooses to appear amongst us (for example, as the angel of the Lord, and as His only begotten Son). To do this he must have an appearance or image, but this automatically places the Son in a lesser position to his Father. Can you find anywhere in scripture where the authority of the resurrected Son is not equal to that of the Father?

    Point 2. Thomas said, My Lord and my God. [John 20:28] No amount of wriggling changes this!

    Point 3. True, the Son proceeds from the Father. John 8:42 says, 'Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.' This means that the Father and the Son are of the same Spirit - the Spirit of God. The Father sends forth that which is His OWN SPIRIT. How can this Spirit not be the ONE GOD?

    Point 4. This is explained above. The Son is subject to the Father.

    Point 5. Again you quote from Ephesians 4:6 but only underline the first part of the trinity! God is also 'through all', and 'within all' (who believe).

    Now, answer a question for me. Deuteronomy 32: 3,4 says, 'Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment; a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.' Who, according to this passage, is the Rock?
     
    #119 Redemptionsong, Jan 10, 2020
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  20. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [Point 1. In coming to earth, God chooses to appear amongst us (for example, as the angel of the Lord, and as His only begotten Son). To do this he must have an appearance or image, but this automatically places the Son in a lesser position to his Father. Can you find anywhere in scripture where the authority of the resurrected Son is not equal to that of the Father?]

    Ok, a couple of things here. God doesnt appear as angels. There is God and the angels. The angels bear and carry God's name in them, just like Jesus. The angels represent God, just like Jesus. Jesus said that he came in his father's name...... Plus, Jesus is not equal to his father. No where in scripture does it say that. God manifests himself into angels, Jesus or whoever he wants. Angels can talk to someone as if God was talking through them or they can talk to someone with a message from God.

    [Point 2. Thomas said, My Lord and my God. [John 20:28] No amount of wriggling changes this!
    Thomas is not calling Jesus God. God in this verse is Elohim. You are my Lord and Elohim. Angels can be Elohim, and that is in most cases. ]

    Look at the OT. Moses was God to Pharaoh. God in those verses was Elohim. The Judges before the kings were called Gods or Elohim in Hebrew. Because they were the ones who brought the word of God to the people. Same with the Levicial priesthood. Look at John 10.....

    Thomas had every right to call Jesus God. You are my Lord and Elohim. Because Jesus was the one who brought the word of God to the people. Very simple language. Jesus is not GOD hmself. Or very God.

    [Point 3. True, the Son proceeds from the Father. John 8:42 says, 'Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.' This means that the Father and the Son are of the same Spirit - the Spirit of God. The Father sends forth that which is His OWN SPIRIT. How can this Spirit not be the ONE GOD?]

    The same spirit, yes. Jesus had the same spirit in the way that he manifested his father's charactor perfectly. Jesus did his father's will, not his own. We try to have the same spirit or mindset as our Creator too. A spiritual mind, not an earthly mind.

    [Point 4. This is explained above. The Son is subject to the Father.]

    Correct. And always will be.

    [Point 5. Again you quote from Ephesians 4:6 but only underline the first part of the trinity! God is also 'through all', and 'within all' (who believe).]

    God's spirit is in us. Is that what you mean?

    [Now, answer a question for me. Deuteronomy 32: 3,4 says, 'Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment; a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.' Who, according to this passage, is the Rock?]

    In the OT, God was the rock of salvation. He was the life, the rock, and everyone knew that. It wasnt Jesus because he wasnt born yet and he did not pre-exist. And now, with his son, he was given all power and authority to him. He didnt have them before he was born.

    Everything starts with our Creator. Everything.
    Look at Hebrews 1. "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things"

    Why did God speak to Jesus in past times? And why only in the last days? That's because Jesus wasnt there. Meaning..... he didnt pre-exist like some people believe (dont know why...) . He was born and when he was at the right age, then he sent his son into the world. And there's a reason for that at age 30. That's all through OT too.
     
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