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Featured Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Iymus, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate it; however what I believe is not the orthodox trinity view. I don't view God as a unity of three but One and manifests Himself in different ways. Yes He does favor these three main ways: Father, Son and holy Spirit. But that doesn't mean they're not the same person.
     
  2. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    A body is NOT a WHO. When the Scripture repeatedly says that "it is Jesus Christ WHO died" . It does not refer to a body only that died, but to Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ is the WHO WHO died. The mortal body that he inhabited is a WHAT, not the WHO.
    Jesus Christ will never die again, nor will the body that God has prepared for him by raising him from the dead.
     
  3. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If HE was a human being then HE cannot be the ONE WHO was HIS God.
    "He" refers to the ONE person. Jesus is ONE person (HE) and his Father and God is another person (HE).
    They are NOT the same HE(person).
    Even Trinitarians understand that simple truth.
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Every human is body, soul and spirit. Not just body but they ahve a soul and spirit as well. Jesus was no different. The only difference is that His soul and Spirit are one with God.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    And of course when He died Jesus' Spirit left His body because it was dead. And that's what happens to anyone who dies by the way.

    Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    But, what is so interesting about Jesus' death is that at the same time the Spirit left His body the Spirit of God also was symbolically leaving the holiest of holies in the temple.

    Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

    So, it's clear that the "veil" of the temple represents Jesus own body and within is the holiest place. Or the place where the Spirit of God is. And when Jesus died, the Spirit left both His body and symbolically left the temple also. This means that Jesus was basically God veiled in human flesh.

    So of course the holy Spirit although He can't die. He did take on the death and resurrection of Christ. It's clear from scriptures. So yes God did die and rise from the dead in Jesus Christ.

    In Romans 8:9-10 we see no distinction between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. These are spoken of as the same exact Spirit. And, we find that it is by the Spirit of Christ that we have resurrection power in us. This means when anyone receives the Spirit of Christ their body is dead like His body died. And their Spirit lives like He lives. So that is "resurrection power" through the Spirit of Christ. And that power is available to us because He died first and rose from the dead.

    Romans 8:9-10
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    Well, post your scripture you're referencing. You aren't citing a verse.
     
  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to the creation of man, Moses is the authority. Moses specifically tells us that man was formed from the dust of the ground and BECAME a living soul when God breathed the breath (spirit) of life into the man.
    Therefore, a living, breathing man (or animal) is called a living soul according to the Scriptures. And when the soul ceases to breathe, he becomes a dead soul. And the man, which was formed in the image of God, returns to the dust he was made from.

    The spirit or breath of life that was given to the man returns to God who gave it. The spirit or breath is simply a vital principle of life which caused the man to become a living soul.
     
    #225 LightofTruth, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  6. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Yes. When I read the OP, my first thought was what then did Jesus mean by saying "Before Abraham was, I am".

    One might argue that St John's gospel, being written later than the synoptic gospels, and being more overtly theological, might have invented this for the sake of inserting the theology that had evolved by the time it was written. But, if one accepts that gospel as authentic, it seems fairly clear.
     
  7. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's important to note that Jesus was a living soul who had the breath or spirit of life just like any other man. However, he was also indwelt by the Holy Spirit of the Father which allowed him to say and do the things he did.
    When Jesus was on the cross, the Holy Spirit that had been indwelling him, left. And Jesus said, "My God, why has thou forsaken me". Then, soon after, Jesus died, and his spirit or breath of life was commended to his God.
    Jesus was then a dead soul because the vital principle of the life of all man is the spirit or breath of life. His dead soul was put in the grave. and three days later God raised him from the dead and gave his life back to him.
     
  8. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    I'm not even going to mention adjectives at this point;

    1. Do the pronouns of the bible correlate with your logic?

    2. Does the definitions of pronouns change when it comes to the bible?

    2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

    Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
    Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I suppose if one is going to say Father and Son are the same person they might as well say that Isaac, who is the only begotten son of Abraham, are also the same person.
    They may be said to be the same in spirit whereby one is as the other, but not the same person.
    For example, Jesus referred to John as Elijah because John had come in the spirit of Elijah. But John and Elijah were two separate persons.
    In the same way, Jesus can be referred to as the Father by coming in the Spirit of the Father, but they are not the same person.
     
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  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you will find that isn't in the text.

    I believe he is attempting to get the rich young ruler to think of Him as God.

    I believe it isn't a differentiation.

    I believe it is unnecessary for Him to say that since the rich young ruler has already said it.

    I believe that never happened and isn't in the text.

    I believe there are many verses where Jesus indicates He is God. One has to take the whole text of what He says into consideration when making an interpretation. Your interpretation doesn't do that.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God was alone throughout the OT except in prophecies of Jesus.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there are not and everything I write I write by the Spirit of God.
     
  13. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Have you examined John 17:3 along with 1 John 5:20?

    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    2. Is God the only true? Or is God the only true God along with the Son of God?

    3. Are we in the Son of God because he is the only true God or are we in the Son of God because God appointed him heir of all things and used him to make the worlds?

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    If you say no one has seen God then who did the prophets see? Isaiah, Ezekiel, Abraham, Daniel and Moses? But what they saw was not the form of God in all His unveiled glory but they saw manifestations of God. That's what Jesus is. Like in 1 Timothy 3:16.

    That's why you can see Jesus. He reveals/declares the invisible God.
     
  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You can't limit God by comparing Him to Abraham and Isaac. God is unlimited.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I can't make sense of your replies with the color/bold. I'd have to change it to black/plain to understand it....
     
  17. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
     
    #237 Iymus, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  18. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    But is not the only wise invisible God who is Lord God the Father. God our Father never died.

    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
  19. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    It seems God was not alone because He used the angels to obey His commands and to do His will.
     
  20. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    The language is the same. Jesus is the son of the Father just as Isaac is the son of Abraham.
    It's absurd to say that Jesus is the only begotten son if he is the same person as the one who is his father.
    Father and son are never the same person. it's common sense..
     
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