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Featured Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Iymus, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What, lymus, would you know about God, the Father, had the Son not declared it?

    No.6 is contradictory to the scriptures. In Colossians 1:12-20 it clearly states that 'he [the Son/the Word] is before all things, and by him all things consist.' We know this refers to the Son and not the Father because the next verse says, 'And he is head of the body, the church:'
     
  2. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    0. Either way, had the son not declared God; the will of God would still be done.

    1. All things are of Lord God our Father Himself.

    2Co 5:18 KJV And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    1Co 6:14 KJV And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    Eph 1:5 KJV Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    2. An image is a representation and a firstborn is before all their brethren

    Col 1:15 KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    3. A beginning of Creation is before all Creation

    Rev 3:14 KJV And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    4. The firstborn beginning of creation was not mentioned as being before the beginning with God.

    Joh 1:2 KJV The same was in the beginning with God.
     
    #182 Iymus, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The question that divides us is not whether the Father is God, but whether the Son and Holy Spirit are God.

    I fully agree with you that the Father is God. He is transcendent, omnipotent, omniscient and ONE SPIRIT. But for God to dwell on earth with men, which I believe is part of God's plan of salvation, it is necessary for God to show His face, and to declare Himself amongst us, and finally to dwell within us.

    The unitarian position, by claiming that God cannot dwell on earth with men, actually makes salvation impossible. Without a sinless man to take the punishment for sin, there is no acceptable sacrifice. And without an acceptable sacrifice, there is no resurrection. And without the resurrection, there is no eternal life. And without eternal life with God, we are doomed!
     
  4. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Lord God said it clearly thru Prophet Isaiah; Notice the pronouns being used. Though nonbelievers will interpret it as they like.

    Isa 43:10 KJV Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    2. Will of God, is of The Father.
    Love of God, is of The Father.
    Commandments of God, is of The Father
    Works of God is, is of The Father
    Faith of only begotten Son, is of The Father
    The Foundation and what is expedient and edifying is of The Father

    1Co 10:23 KJV All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

    3. God sends a passover lamb and those that turn back to him will be covered under the passover lamb.

    4. My position is what is expedient and edifying which is Deu 6:4 and Eph 4:6 which is nontrinitarian though nonbelievers will disagree.

    5. Heb 11:6 KJV But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
     
  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's foolish to think that there was nothing in existence when we read "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". To say that God CREATED them does NOT indicate that there was nothing from which He created them. To prove my point, it is also said that God CREATED man, but God did NOT create man from nothing, he was created from the earth. So the word "CREATED" , when speaking of the earth, refers to forming it into the way it is today from what already existed.
    It's important to note that God is Spirit, but that He also has a Spirit which proceeds or emanates from Him. Also, God is in heaven. "Our Father which art in heaven". It is also said that His holy habitation is in heaven.
    The heaven in which God resides is a specific location else it would not be considered His habitation.

    If God were an immaterial Spirit then He would be so enormous that He would be everywhere. However, because He has a Spirit that emanates from His person, He can be said to be everywhere even though He resides in heaven.
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Not according to scripture. The will of God was not being done by Israel, despite God's covenants. Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, was the only answer to the sin of the world. This is why He becomes the New Covenant.

    In quoting Isaiah 43:10, you are, inadvertently, pointing us to the trinitarian God. In 43:11, it says, I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.' So the one God who states that 'before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.' is also inclusive of his Son. 'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.' [Luke 2:11] This is confirmed in Matthew 1:21, 'And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.'

    The authority of God must be IN Jesus Christ for him to be Saviour. It is not good enough for him to be sent powerless into the world. Jesus Christ is given complete authority IN HIMSELF, whilst all the time constantly drawing on His Father's spiritual resources (found in the Godhead, poured out bodily). The connection between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is an unbroken, continuous oneness.

    Let's not forget that Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I am not of the opinion that God created 'ex nihilo' or 'out of nothing'.

    I think I am right in saying that there was a Greek philosopher called Parmenides who said, Nothing comes from nothing. I agree. I believe that since God is an eternal Spirit, that he creates out of HIMSELF. God is Spirit, and, therefore, God creates from Spirit.

    Things that are physical occupy both time and space, but this is not true of Spirit. The Spirit is invisible, and without measure.

    Romans 1:20. 'For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:'

    Colossians 1:15. 'Who [the Son] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature [creation]:'

    If the Father were anything other than Spirit, we would not be required to worship Him 'in spirit and in truth'. [John 4:23,24]
     
  8. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Before me, not Before us or Before they. Before me is God himself. All things are of God himself; not his Son

    2Co 5:18 KJV And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    Eph 1:5 KJV Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


    2. God appointing his only begotten son heir of all things, and the only begotten son being subject unto the will of God; does not make the only begotten Son, the only true God,

    Heb 1:1 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 KJV Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    3. Heavenly Father himself is only true God.

    Mat 7:21 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Joh 7:17 KJV If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    Joh 4:34 KJV Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

    Joh 17:3 KJV And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If the will of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same, or one will, then the will of God is singular.

    As it says in John 1:1, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'

    In 2 Cor.5:18, the passage you quoted above, notice how all three elements of the trinity [Father, Son, Holy Spirit] are present.
    2Co 5:18 KJV And all things are of God [the Father], who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ [the Son], and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation [the Holy Spirit];

    This is how the trinity operates. The Father is above, invisible and transcendent, the Son is visible and amongst us, and the Holy Spirit is the grace that dwells in each believer. The Holy Spirit defers to the Son, and the Son defers to the Father, but all three are one Spirit with one will.
     
  10. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. The Holy Spirit and only begotten son do not do their own will but the will of the Heavenly Father alone because he is the only true God and greater than all. His will be done in earth as in heaven.

    Mat 6:9 KJV After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    Mat 6:10 KJV Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    2. God our Father is greater than all

    Joh 10:29 KJV My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    3. Only begotten Son and Holy Spirit are as righteous servants of God our Heavenly Father. They are subservient to his will.

    Joh 13:16 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    Act 5:30 KJV The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
    Act 5:31 KJV Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
    Act 5:32 KJV And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Joh 8:42 KJV Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    Joh 8:43 KJV Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If you claim that our Father in heaven is God alone, and God does not come to dwell with man on earth, you end up denying that God has a Son, and denying that he sends his Holy Spirit. This is the position that Muslims take. God has no Son. God does not come to dwell with man on earth.

    According to unitarian teaching the Son is not actually OF God. The Son of God becomes, instead, an immaculately conceived vessel without the Spirit of God dwelling in it. This is not actually a son, but a servant.

    So what is the difference between a servant of God and a son of God?

    Here is what Paul says in Romans 8:14-17, 'For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together.'

    How, you might ask, did the Spirit of adoption come to be in believers? It came because Jesus Christ prayed that his Father would send it. So the Father sends the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, in the name of his Son [See John 14]

    The route of blessing is always the same. The Father sends, but it is always through his Son [our Saviour Jesus Christ] and into the believer. This spiritual pathway is always the same - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    For the unitarian, there is no pathway of salvation. The Saviour remains in heaven, seemingly unable or unwilling to come to earth to save.
     
  12. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    You miss the point entirely. It goes without saying that God existed when the earth was created. What also existed when we read "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" was also the heaven and earth. They existed long before Genesis 1:1
    To be Spirit does not mean to be immaterial. It simply means to be "unseen".
     
    #192 LightofTruth, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that God's Spirit is real and living. I also agree that He is unseen, but I would not call Him 'material'.

    If the heaven and the earth existed before Genesis 1:1 then it must still have had a beginning. It is God, who is one, that has no beginning. This is what makes God the Creator. As soon as anything else comes into existence you have more than one, and, therefore, a creation. This makes two, or more, and can be described as a beginning.
     
    #193 Redemptionsong, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  14. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    Just because one denounces the Trinitarian Creed of Men does not necessarily make them Unitarian. I never said I was or was not Unitarian.

    I never spoke anything about God dwelling or not dwelling on the earth.

    Neither did I say God has no Son. Neither did I say the only begotten son is not of God.

    Those that have the authority and do the will of God are know as righteous servants which includes or would include the only begotten son.

    All I have done is shown using the bible that Jesus is not the only true God; neither Lord God.
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    But by saying that Jesus is not the only true God, nor Lord God, you are taking the Unitarian position!

    We both agree that there is only ONE God, and if Jesus Christ is not God in any way, then what is he? And what is the Holy Spirit if not God's Spirit?

    I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, I'm simply trying to follow through the logic of your position.

    As I said before, when I pray, I pray to my Father in heaven. I do so because I have the Spirit of Christ within me, and that enables me to claim the rights of a son. When I pray, I pray to my Father in heaven, in the name of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Christ is head [in heaven] of the spiritual body [on earth] to which I belong, and he resides at the right hand of my Father in heaven [as one].
     
  16. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Specifically I am taking the position of Moses, David, Nehemiah, Isaiah, Jesus, Luke, John, and Jude because at a minimum their words speak of an only true God or Lord God that is not Jesus, sent Jesus, or commanded Jesus.

    2. I believe One God himself greater than all and above all. You seem to believe something contrary to this and try to bandage it up in "Deu 6:4" which seemingly gives off an appearance of being lukewarm in doctrine.

    3. The Spirit of Christ "Anointed of God" is of The one who Anointed him.

    4. The owner of Heaven is the one who owns the Mansions and is the Head of Christ.

    Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    5. Specifically One in Agreement.

    Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
     
  17. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    [But by saying that Jesus is not the only true God, nor Lord God, you are taking the Unitarian position!]

    Absolutely!! Why would anyone say the Jesus is God, when scripture tells us that there is only one God and there are no other Gods beside that God......

    Isaiah 45 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:"
    "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."

    So did Isaiah say to himself, that's wrong!! There are God's beside our God, and that is God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!! I dont think he did. I dont think he told people that it is a "mystery", like the Trinitarians do today. Isaiah and everyone else fully understand who their God was. They also knew that there would be a "coming" Messiah, not one that was already here..... That was pre-existing somewhere else. Nobody was ever told that. But, ... that's the false doctrines of today!!


    [We both agree that there is only ONE God, and if Jesus Christ is not God in any way, then what is he? And what is the Holy Spirit if not God's Spirit?]

    Then what is he?...... Dont you mean, who is he? Why would you say "what" is he..... Scripture tells us that he was born a man. Like us, except God was his father. But still a man, same nature as us (Heb 2). The Messiah had to be like us. If he was a God, it wouldnt have worked in any way. Just because God was his father, doesnt automactically make him a God. God's spirit created a mortal living being in Mary. Not a God... but a man.

    It was critical in God's plan of Redemption that whoever was going to redeem Mankind from sin and death, also shared our nature. But why? So the answer is simple.......

    It was through a "man" that sin was first conceived and came into the world. Sin had to be condemned by a "man", in the very place in which it first took hold. So it was that in being "born of a woman" that 'he... himself... likewise...took part of the same". He was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" and was "tempted in all points as we are" but never sinned.

    Sin was conceieved in the flesh. It had to be condemned in the flesh by the righteous posserssor of that flesh, as a basis for our reconciliation to God.

    There was only one way that this could happen. Not only was he born of a woman, but he was also the Son of God. He was his Father's son and had to battle daily with the same battle between flesh and the spirit, but it was the spirit that overcame!!! But how? How was that possible? "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself". (2 Cor 5)

    The Messiah had to be like us to "overcome" sin. He was tempted in all ways just like us. If Jesus was God or a God, then what would be the point of this?

    Plus, the Holy Spirit IS God's spirit. Look what happened to Mary. Jesus was conceived by the HS. If the HS was a really person, they the HS would be his father.
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Throughout this discussion, I have stated my belief that ALL scripture must be taken into account when proving a position.

    I have read the passages that you quote above and I can understand them from the trinitarian position. Can you do the same with the passages I ask you to explain?

    Take, for example, John 8:58,59. 'Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.'

    Jesus made the claim to pre-exist, and did not attempt to deny this when they took up stones to kill him.

    How do you explain Psalm 110, a Psalm that Jesus talked about in relation to himself in Matthew 22:41- 45? Then compare Psalm 110:1 with Psalm 8:1, and tell me to whom 'our Lord' refers.

    If Jesus Christ was a man only, he would have been happy to accept the title of Son of David. The fact that he corrected the Pharisees proves that he believed himself to be OUR Lord!

    This is confirmed in Acts 2:32-36.

    And this is consistent with all scripture. Luke 2:11, 'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.'

    You and I would not need to look to Jesus Christ for salvation were he not responsible for salvation. We might, from a unitarian position, seek the God of heaven and bypass Christ altogether. But no, in Acts 16:31, the prison keeper of Paul and Silas asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.'

    There is only one Saviour, and that is the LORD thy God. [Hosea 13:4] You cannot call Jesus Christ a Saviour without attributing to him the authority of God, and you cannot say he has the authority and power of God without being OF God.

    Let's not forget that Jesus Christ came the first time as the suffering servant. He returns as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords [Rev. 19:16]. He has gone from being a 'man made of a woman, made under the law' to Lord of Lords. This is an unfolding revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  19. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1. Thank you. You finally said it out your own mouth "I can understand them from the trinitarian position. "

    The Trinitarian position is not the foundation of the bible.

    1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

    2. Is like someone who believes it is lawful to eat human flesh understanding all the verses from a cannibalism position.

    Joh 6:54, Joh 6:55, & Col 2:16

    This seems like or similar to confirmation bias; Overvaluing what confirms your beliefs instead of the intention of what is written.

    3. Mat 13:14

    Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    Love of God, is of the Father
    Commandments of God, is of The Father
    Will of God, is of The Father
    Authority of God, is of The Father
    Works of God, is of The Father
    All things are of God our Father the only true God.
     
    #199 Iymus, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The trinitarian position is not saying that there are three gods. The Spirit of God, which is of one substance, or being, is able to dwell within a man. A man is not God; a man is a body, a soul, and a spirit.

    Jesus was born of a woman. His conception was miraculous but his birth was like that of all humans. At this point he is fully human, although he does have a heavenly Father [the Holy Spirit] by conception. This is important because with a human father sin can be passed down through the generations. Jesus was to be without sin, holy in every respect.

    At about thirty years of age, Jesus was baptised with the Holy Spirit because his heavenly Father was pleased with him, and, at this point, everything changes. He now has the the fulness of the Godhead bodily [Colossians 1:19; 2:9], and undertakes the role of the suffering servant as prophesied in scripture [Isaiah 61; Isaiah 53].

    But I am in total agreement with your comments about the need for Jesus to overcome temptation. He was tempted in all things but sinned not. This is because he has a soul and a body alongside the Holy Spirit! It is only when crucified and raised to life again that the body is finally made incorruptible. The soul of Jesus has already been committed in obedience to the will of God [Matthew 26:41,42].

    When Christ returns the second time, he does so as our Judge, the immortal King of Kings.

    Deut.32:4. 'He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.'
     
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