Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

[icehorse]

So, what ideas are out there that you like?

Assuming you had unlimited money to spend...

Focusing on the high incidence of unnecessary deadly force being used against brown and black people by white police officers; what would you do address this problem?

To me, the "deadly force" issue is a symptom of a much bigger problem. On a per capita basis, black people have a much higher incidence of confrontational interactions with police than white people do. While I'm not in denial about racism, I think the most obvious reason for this discrepancy is economic. People (of any color), who are in dire economic straits, are bound to be "in trouble with the law" more frequently than people (of any color), who have some degree of financial security. For example, it's pretty clear to me that if millions of people start getting evicted in the next couple of months, there are going to be a LOT of harsh interactions with the police, and a lot of people of all colors are going to be on the wrong end of these exchanges.

So my idea is that attacking wealth and income inequality will have a far bigger positive impact on black lives than improving the country's police forces will.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

To me, the "deadly force" issue is a symptom of a much bigger problem. On a per capita basis, black people have a much higher incidence of confrontational interactions with police than white people do. While I'm not in denial about racism, I think the most obvious reason for this discrepancy is economic. People (of any color), who are in dire economic straits, are bound to be "in trouble with the law" more frequently than people (of any color), who have some degree of financial security. For example, it's pretty clear to me that if millions of people start getting evicted in the next couple of months, there are going to be a LOT of harsh interactions with the police, and a lot of people of all colors are going to be on the wrong end of these exchanges.

So my idea is that attacking wealth and income inequality will have a far bigger positive impact on black lives than improving the country's police forces will.

I don't see these two things as mutually exclusive. Kind of like you'll see decrease in STDs both by increasing awareness of protective options as well as increasing availability of protective options and decreasing stigma around usage. All three require separate types of policy. Some may be more effective in the short term than the long term. But they all should be done.

Similarly there are things we can do to decrease police brutality right away. Including demilitarization of police forces, increasing accountability and removing blocks against prosecution or making it harder to rehire police with records of brutality in new counties after being fired.
Not to mention greatly increasing other social services like healthcare and childcare or family crisis services which would put responses in hands of people better trained to view people on drugs, with abuse, etc as nails needing to be hammered.

 

[icehorse]

I don't see these two things as mutually exclusive.

Strictly speaking I agree. But in reality, society is going to tackle only so many things at once.

Not to mention greatly increasing other social services like healthcare and childcare or family crisis services which would put responses in hands of people better trained to view people on drugs, with abuse, etc as nails needing to be hammered.

And initiatives like this get paid for by slicing through wealth and income inequality!!

 

[Tambourine]

Sounds like a plan! First, Americans get rid of income inequality; then they implement a classless society; and then they can finally address the problem of police brutality. What could go wrong?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm sorry that you haven't understood the point of the OP, my bad.

I'm completely agree with and defend the right of the protestors to publicize what they're experiencing. And I am making zero claims that I know much about what they are experiencing. Further, I agree that arriving at an understanding of what they're experiencing is vital in order to solve the problem.

My point is that, once the problem has been ascertained, solutions should be assessed on their merit, not on who offered the solution.

Yeah, but the devil is in the detail.
Let me explain with something I know and have studied. I am an Aspie and I know some of the solutions as you demand, not because I am an Aspie, but because I have studied it.
But if I were to explain the solutions, it requires that you understand the problem. I really mean it. You have to have a model of understand that allows you to without being an Aspie to understand what it means to be an Aspie.
Sometimes I get the answer from some - I understand the problem, but they really don't.

I know nothing of you, so I won't comment on you, but some of the black people in BLM are like me. They know the problem and they do understand the solution, because they have studied it.

 

[dybmh]

So my idea is that attacking wealth and income inequality will have a far bigger positive impact on black lives than improving the country's police forces will.

True, good point.

However that's a long term solution. What can be done *now* in order to prevent unarmed black and brown people from being killed or harmed by non-black and non-brown Law Enforcement?

 

[icehorse]

Yeah, but the devil is in the detail.
Let me explain with something I know and have studied. I am an Aspie and I know some of the solutions as you demand, not because I am an Aspie, but because I have studied it.
But if I were to explain the solutions, it requires that you understand the problem. I really mean it. You have to have a model of understand that allows you to without being an Aspie to understand what it means to be an Aspie.
Sometimes I get the answer from some - I understand the problem, but they really don't.

I know nothing of you, so I won't comment on you, but some of the black people in BLM are like me. They know the problem and they do understand the solution, because they have studied it.

I feel like I'm missing your point, because it seems to me that you just agreed that we should value expertise, no?

 

[icehorse]

True, good point.

However that's a long term solution. What can be done *now* in order to prevent unarmed black and brown people from being killed or harmed by non-black and non-brown Law Enforcement?

How many times per year do you think that happens? How many times per year do you think that happens to white people?

Is it a problem? Of course. But how big a problem really?

 

[columbus]

How many times per year do you think that happens? How many times per year do you think that happens to white people?

Is it a problem? Of course. But how big a problem really?

Exactly.

I see the big problem as Law Enforcement folks dealing with an increasingly dysfunctional and fractured society. More frequently armed, violent, drug addled, entitled, etc. And the result is an increasingly heavy handed response.

Calling the problem racism is an easy, politically correct, way out. But the data doesn't show that.
Tom

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I feel like I'm missing your point, because it seems to me that you just agreed that we should value expertise, no?

No, because expertise doesn't mean that the expert understand what BLM is about.

The best one to ask is BLM with expertise.

 

[dybmh]

How many times per year do you think that happens? How many times per year do you think that happens to white people?

Is it a problem? Of course. But how big a problem really?

If you aren't aware that there is a problem, then I have no desire to try to convince you otherwise.

My point is that, once the problem has been ascertained, solutions should be assessed on their merit, not on who offered the solution.

My point is, there isn't agreement on what the problems are or their severity. That's step number one. Common ground.

In order to move forward, the two opposing sides don't need to agree. But they do need common ground based on shared understanding of the problems and their scope of effect. I don't don't see that happening any time soon from either side of the issues.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you aren't aware that there is a problem, then I have no desire to try to convince you otherwise.

He's doing the opposite of denying the problem.
Instead it's about accurately defining the related problems.
There's been much failure in that area....too narrow a focus.

 

[columbus]

Is it a problem? Of course.

If you aren't aware that there is a problem,

Sorry dybmh, you just totally missed what icehorse said.
Tom

 

[dybmh]

Sorry dybmh, you just totally missed what icehorse said.
Tom

OK, I'll go back and re-read it more carefully.

 

[dybmh]

@icehorse ,@Revoltingest ,@columbus ,

I'm reacting to this:

"
How many times per year do you think that happens? How many times per year do you think that happens to white people?

Is it a problem? Of course. But how big a problem really?"

Isn't this implying that "it" ( killing or harming unarmed citizens ) happens to white people just as much as non-white people? At the very least it minimizes / diminishes the extent of the problem?

If my own bias is interfering with my understanding of these words, please by all means correct me.

 

[Revoltingest]

@icehorse ,@Revoltingest ,@columbus ,

I'm reacting to this:

"
How many times per year do you think that happens? How many times per year do you think that happens to white people?

Is it a problem? Of course. But how big a problem really?"

Isn't this implying that "it" ( killing or harming unarmed citizens ) happens to white people just as much as non-white people? At the very least it minimizes / diminishes the extent of the problem?

If my own bias is interfering with my understanding of these words, please by all means correct me.

I've posted about the statistics many times before.
In summary & looking only at race (ignoring other factors), more
whites are killed by cops, & blacks are at greater individual risk.
What do you think of 95% of the victims being male?
And what of the far more common problem of cops abusing
people, but not to the point of death?

 

[icehorse]

No, because expertise doesn't mean that the expert understand what BLM is about.

The best one to ask is BLM with expertise.

sigh.. BLM is an example of a more general situation. So, using BLM as AN EXAMPLE, what are they protesting? Let's say they're protesting police shooting black people. Okay, what are the actual stats? Of course it would be great if no one got shot by police, but people of all colors get shot by police, so, what are the stats? Do you think BLM are experts in these stat? Perhaps, and if so, they should provide them.

IN GENERAL, experts are experts in a particular domain. I'm not saying that any old expert should be able to weigh in, I'm saying that expertise should be respected - in the domain. But that identity does not convey expertise.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I've posted about the statistics many times before.
In summary & looking only at race (ignoring other factors), more
whites are killed by cops, & blacks are at greater individual risk.
What do you think of 95% of the victims being male?
And what of the far more common problem of cops abusing
people, but not to the point of death?

Proportionally to blacks or just more whites than blacks?

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse ,@Revoltingest ,@columbus ,

I'm reacting to this:

"
How many times per year do you think that happens? How many times per year do you think that happens to white people?

Is it a problem? Of course. But how big a problem really?"

Isn't this implying that "it" ( killing or harming unarmed citizens ) happens to white people just as much as non-white people? At the very least it minimizes / diminishes the extent of the problem?

If my own bias is interfering with my understanding of these words, please by all means correct me.

The bigger problem I'm trying to address is that this is an example of mass hysteria. I don't know the stats, you don't know the stats, and I'm pretty sure that BLM and the vast majority of the protestors don't know the stats.

 

[dybmh]

I've posted about the statistics many times before.
In summary & looking only at race (ignoring other factors), more
whites are killed by cops, & blacks are at greater individual risk.
What do you think of 95% of the victims being male?
And what of the far more common problem of cops abusing
people, but not to the point of death?

Do the statistics you have track unarmed citizens, or overall use of force?

Apologies, BTW if this is asking you to repost data... repeatedly.