Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

[icehorse]

If not, then Icehorse, your friends are right. White people do not, cannot know what it's like, and therefore should not criticize the Black Lives Matter movement on the basis of "enough is enough". They *need* to protest Icehorse; we as white people probably will never be able to relate to that need. It's just a fact of life.

I'm sorry that you haven't understood the point of the OP, my bad.

I'm completely agree with and defend the right of the protestors to publicize what they're experiencing. And I am making zero claims that I know much about what they are experiencing. Further, I agree that arriving at an understanding of what they're experiencing is vital in order to solve the problem.

My point is that, once the problem has been ascertained, solutions should be assessed on their merit, not on who offered the solution.

 

[icehorse]

Have you considered the possibility that you really don't know what you're talking about on the issue?

I'm guessing that you think this thread is about racism?

 

[dybmh]

My point is that, once the problem has been ascertained, solutions should be assessed on their merit, not on who offered the solution.

Brilliantly stated. Agreed.

 

[Left Coast]

Finally, we're addressing the OP.

My claim is that there IS an issue when protestors claim that "unless you've lived it, you cannot have a voice in solving it".

Again, where have you heard this? Is it just anecdotal? Random posts on social media?

I wouldn't say you cannot have a voice. I'd say it makes it more difficult for you to have a meaningful, helpful voice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm guessing that you think this thread is about racism?

No, I think this thread is about your ego.

Edit: I mean, in your analogy, BLM ignoring your "advice" would be akin to someone with a torn ACL ignoring the advice of their surgeon.

Exactly what qualifies you as the expert saviour of the BLM movement?

 

[Tambourine]

Finally, we're addressing the OP.

My claim is that there IS an issue when protestors claim that "unless you've lived it, you cannot have a voice in solving it".

If a person has never experienced the issues that drive people onto the streets, then exactly how well equipped would you consider that person to come up with an effective solution to their grievances?

 

[dybmh]

It seems as though the scolders are bundling the problem and the solution together.

Right!

It's 7 steps as far as I can tell.

Step 1: List the problems.

Step 2: Rank the list of problems.

Step 3: Identify the root cause of the top 3 problems on the list.

Step 4 and 5: develop solutions that solve the root causes; while concurrently, developing stop gap solutions to address immediate need.

Step 6: repeat steps 3, 4, 5 until the top 3 problems on the list are solved. Don't move on until all three are solved completely.

Step 7: using what was learned from solving those 3 primary problems, repeat steps 1-6 until all people are treated equally by every government funded institution, organization, and entity. That means if you receive a tax perk... you'd be on the list, required to provide equal treatment and opportunity to every single human being regardless of race, color, etc.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Augustus]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but it is useful for the amount of information it contains:

Black History timeline

That's a bit odd for a specifically 'black history' timeline as it seems to be assuming that everyone born in Africa = black.

3 of the first 4 relate to Berbers who are predominantly a West-Eurasian lineage rather than black African.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My point is that, once the problem has been ascertained, solutions should be assessed on their merit, not on who offered the solution.

Ah... then I take it that you accept unsolicited advice from random people who want to tell you how to fix your problems.

 

[icehorse]

No, I think this thread is about your ego.

Edit: I mean, in your analogy, BLM ignoring your "advice" would be akin to someone with a torn ACL ignoring the advice of their surgeon.

Exactly what qualifies you as the expert saviour of the BLM movement?

Again, missing the point.

 

[icehorse]

Ah... then I take it that you accept unsolicited advice from random people who want to tell you how to fix your problems.

This isn't personal, it's societal. So yes, I think the best ideas should be the ones we use.

 

[icehorse]

If a person has never experienced the issues that drive people onto the streets, then exactly how well equipped would you consider that person to come up with an effective solution to their grievances?

Again, solutions should be judged only on their merit.

 

[Tambourine]

Again, solutions should be judged only on their merit.

Maybe your solutions simply lacked merit, and people were trying to explain to you why that might be.

Have you considered that possibility?

 

[Mock Turtle]

That's a bit odd for a specifically 'black history' timeline as it seems to be assuming that everyone born in Africa = black.

3 of the first 4 relate to Berbers who are predominantly a West-Eurasian lineage rather than black African.

Perhaps, but surely it is about 'black history', hence they are excluded?

 

[Augustus]

Perhaps, but surely it is about 'black history', hence they are excluded?

Not sure what you mean here. Berbers are included 3 times, not excluded:

1. Roman rule in Britain begins. The Numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum, an African auxiliary unit, takes its position on Hadrian’s Wall (c100-c400) as part of the Roman army and helps guard the outermost reaches of the empire.

2. African-born scholar Hadrian of Canterbury, having rejected a papal request to become Archbishop of Canterbury, travels to Britain with Theodore, who took up the post instead. Hadrian becomes an abbot in Canterbury.

3. General Tariq ibn-Ziyad conquers the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal). The rock of Gibraltar is named after this Moorish general (the Arabic Jabal Tariq means Mount Tariq). He led an eight-year campaign to conquer modern Spain and Portugal in AD 711.


In an article about 'Black History', using a term like 'African' can be quite misleading given the historical differences between Mediterranean North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Not sure what you mean here. Berbers are included 3 times, not excluded:

1. Roman rule in Britain begins. The Numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum, an African auxiliary unit, takes its position on Hadrian’s Wall (c100-c400) as part of the Roman army and helps guard the outermost reaches of the empire.

2. African-born scholar Hadrian of Canterbury, having rejected a papal request to become Archbishop of Canterbury, travels to Britain with Theodore, who took up the post instead. Hadrian becomes an abbot in Canterbury.

3. General Tariq ibn-Ziyad conquers the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal). The rock of Gibraltar is named after this Moorish general (the Arabic Jabal Tariq means Mount Tariq). He led an eight-year campaign to conquer modern Spain and Portugal in AD 711.


In an article about 'Black History', using a term like 'African' can be quite misleading given the historical differences between Mediterranean North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa.

Fair enough.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, missing the point.

No, seeing through your point.

 

[icehorse]

Maybe your solutions simply lacked merit, and people were trying to explain to you why that might be.

Have you considered that possibility?

Hey @Tambourine and @9-10ths_Penguin,

I reread the OP and maybe understand the miscommunication. Yes, I framed the OP as a personal experience, what I meant to convey was a more societal problem. Yes, it's happened to me, but I also see it happening a lot in society.

So the bottom line is that there is a meme out on the world today that "if you haven't lived it", you can't have a voice in solving it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hey @Tambourine and @9-10ths_Penguin,

I reread the OP and maybe understand the miscommunication. Yes, I framed the OP as a personal experience, what I meant to convey was a more societal problem. Yes, it's happened to me, but I also see it happening a lot in society.

So the bottom line is that there is a meme out on the world today that "if you haven't lived it", you can't have a voice in solving it.

I haven't found this to be true at all. The exact opposite, in fact. I've seen many calls for people who do have a platform or influence - who are disproportionately not members of marginalized groups - to use their voice to advocate for marginalized people.

In my experience, allies who aren't POC themselves have a voice; it's just that:

- not every white person who thinks that they're an ally actually is (edit: and the response to a person is going to be a function of their track record).
- white people trying to dictate to POC is generally unwelcome.

 

[icehorse]

I haven't found this to be true at all. The exact opposite, in fact. I've seen many calls for people who do have a platform or influence - who are disproportionately not members of marginalized groups - to use their voice to advocate for marginalized people.

In my experience, allies who aren't POC themselves have a voice; it's just that:

- not every white person who thinks that they're an ally actually is (edit: and the response to a person is going to be a function of their track record).
- white people trying to dictate to POC is generally unwelcome.

It's not surprising that there are also good conversations happening. That doesn't mean that the situation I'm describing isn't a problem. No one ever said that this was a 100% of the time situation