Problems in JPS (Abrahamic DIR)

[DustyFeet]

gen 29:21

here the JPS describes jacob negatively

the Hebrew word(s) used for "cohabit" ( when i searched ) is listed 4 times in the Tanach. this is the only time where it connotes ... ahem .. intimacy. the other 3 are literal.

i think the pattern so far is this:

when there is a choice of translations, the JPS chooses the one which is the most critical of the characters in the story

this supports the claim i have heard others make

the JPS uses a secular academic approach to translation

secular academics value pointing out flaws

it's like a peer review?

in addition, i think there is a belief among some jews that the Torah is just a "book". and the more criticisms, the stronger the claim: "it's just a book"

to be fair, i have seen the translation to "cohabit" in at least 1 other chumash in my collection. and it is [ forgive me ] common knowledge that the expression used in the Torah in gen 29:21 is referring to intimacy. however, it isn't overt. it's possibly the most sensitive way to describe what was happening in the story. i personally prefer the more family friendly approach. so that i can talk to my kids about the subject in my own way, in my own time, when they're ready. as opposed the JPS approach which hits them over the head with it.

------------------------

please note: this is **this weeks parsha**. this is 100% the appropriate time to analyze these verses. in my opinion defending jacob's reputation is a kiddush hashem. soiling jacob's reputation on the other hand...

also, please consider that i did not contradict RabbiO's comments regarding the first 2 problems i identified in the JPS in this thread. i could have brought the targum which report's Leah's eyes as "lovely". And I could have included the exact words in the midrash which **harshly** condemns calling Leah's eyes weak.

none of the problems i have identified represent additions to the text, nor do they represent translating based on "form". i provided examples of how i use the "form" to remind me of the word's meaning. but I am not adding or changing anything. it's a mnemonic.

but i don't want to "quarrel" with my brother. and i hope that this is the model for this thread as i update it with any new problems identified. i will report what i find. if anyone wishes to correct me, comment about what i said, or criticize me or my approach. By all means, and i will not argue back and forth.

however, if the comments, questions, etc, end in a question mark...

 

[DustyFeet]

this weeks haftarah, again, the JPS translation is very different from all my other chumashim. there are so many differences. in each divergence the JPS uses harsher language not gentler. this supports my theory that the JPS chooses the translation that would be appreciated by a Torah critic.

If there weren't so many deviations, i would choose the most extreme examples for this thread.

If there is interest, I can explore this haftarah further.

 

[DustyFeet]

You are familiar with the statement attributed to Rabbi Judah in the Talmud, Kiddushin 49a, regarding translation?

Man to Man
Jew to Jew
In the presence of more than 2

in your Judgement: am i getting into trouble?

[GALLERY=media, 8728][/GALLERY]

 

[RabbiO]

@DustyFeet -

In trouble with whom?
In trouble for what?

And with what am I being challenged?

 

[DustyFeet]

In trouble with whom?
In trouble for what?

And with what am I being challenged?

ok, i am now embarrassed **blush**
i think i got caught up in the moment again, sorry

RabbiO, it would be very helpful for me to understand your intention when you were referring me to rabbi judah's warning. would you please elaborate?

 

[DustyFeet]

Rabbi Judah in the Talmud

Rabbi Judah Ben Bava?

 

[DustyFeet]

And with what am I being challenged?

with all due respect,

can u support your statement below?

You are familiar with the statement attributed to Rabbi Judah in the Talmud, Kiddushin 49a, regarding translation?

were u just "musing" upon the idea of "translation problems"?
if not, what is the relevance?

supporting your claim is something that is universally valued on RF. this is my challenge. i challenge u to support the statement. can u do that?

here is the quotation i found regarding R.Judah and translation:

"Rabbi Judah said: One who translates a verse according to its form is a liar; and one who adds anything commits blasphemy and sacrilege."

i am slowly collecting the Koren Talmud. believe it our not, i'm on volume 21. volume 22 is Kiddushin.

did i find the correct quote you are referring to? please acknowledge: yes or no?

without Kiddushin in my collection, i cannot go back to hebrew and read it myself.

are your intentions accurately represented by the the english quoted above "liar... blasphemy... sacrilege..."? yes or no?

are u implying i could become a "liar"? yes or no?
are u implying i am at risk of committing "blasphemy"? yes or no?
are u implying i am at risk of committing "sacrilege"? yes or no?

i have successfully backed up my statements on RF. go look it up. if i make mistakes, i admit it openly. this makes me credible.



i challenge u to do the same

Rabbi, with all due respect, can u back up the statement u made regarding "Rabbi Judah in the Talmud, Kiddushin 49a, regarding translation"? yes or no?

if you have a problem with my approach so far, let's address it, resolve it, and move on.

if for no other reason, it's a theme in this weeks parsha.

with much love and great respect,

-DF-

 

[RabbiO]

@DustyFeet -

I did not make a statement. I simply asked a question regarding whether you were familiar with the statement ascribed to Rabbi Judah regarding translating.

I made no inference about you. Any idea that I was making an assessment about you originates with you not with me. Are you always this volatile?

My suggestion is that you pour yourself a nice hot cup of tea, munch on a prune danish, and relax.

I'm more than happy to engage in conversation once you've calmed down.

 

[DustyFeet]

I simply asked a question regarding whether you were familiar with the statement ascribed to Rabbi Judah regarding translating.

why did you ask?

 

[DustyFeet]

Are you always this volatile?

yes, i'm consistently volatile

 

[DustyFeet]

yes i get fired up, and i'm hard to get along with. but i don't think i should be ridiculed because of it.

do i want to cause problems, do i want to be annoying? no.

i want unity.

what does that look like? how does it feel?

like this

noisy messy uncomfortable compromise

rewarding and worth it, i hope

i do not want to change anyone
if you're close-minded, i want you to stay close minded
i want to be open-minded, and i shouldn't be ridiculed because of it.
i don't want anyone to change.

i hope my rule-following exclusive brothers and sisters stay strong.
i hope my open-minded inclusive brothers and sisters are reinvigorated with new spiritual support for their position.

how is this unity?

it's a version of unity.

unity for me exists as a spectrum, like so many "things"

it's easier to talk about why unity? as opposed to "what it is"

i want us to be strong

not like oak or concrete

like the reed, like the willow

it's true we could be strong if we were like concrete, constructed of small uniform bits
we could be strong like oak, where its fibers are consistent straight and true

but that's not who we are

we are individuals, with individual needs, assets, and flaws

becoming strong like concrete or oak means all of us will have to change to become uniform
all of us would have to change

but if we can be like the reed, (behold Dune!)
we don't have to change
we just have to stand together
the more varied... the stronger we are
if we stand very close
....


willow bark makes wonderful cordage
and she grows fast
litters her leaves everywhere
grows tall
wonderful shade
and a great indicator of a reliable water source

she gets a special day once a year... the 7th day of sukkot
she's included in the lulav, but she is honored on the 7th day
it's obscure, many people haven't heard of it

how do we honor her? by beating her on the ground

i used to think we did this to wake her up

wake up willow, i'd say to myself as we made a mess all over the floor

this year i read it's about demonstrating her strength

how is the willow strong? because she's flexible
who is the willow? we are the willow

we are not uniform fibers like the oak
we... are whippy,
like the long newly grown branches on the willow

if u line us up (but don't count us)
our strengths and weaknesses, our opinions and experiences don't line up
this is good

if u take an individual willow branch, a new green one, all by itself, no one would say it was "strong"
but if u take 5 of them
and twist them together, tightly, ( it has to be tight )
you're making rope
arguably one of them most important primitive technologies ever developed
it's right up there with mayan concrete



how does rope work?
natural fiber rope works because the weak points do not line up
and these fibers are twisted together very tightly so that the fibers work together

it's friction
without friction it falls apart

if all the weak points line up,
the rope splits
at the weak point

when making rope by hand the fibers are intentionally shuffled around
inserting randomness
this makes it stronger

each fiber remains unchanged
flaws and all
the imperfections shuffled
so that where one fiber is weak
the fiber next to it is strong

the fibers have to be flexible
it's true you can make rope out of most tree bark
but the best rope comes from fibers that are flexible and
believe it or not
messy
more friction between the fibers
willow and cedar are my favorites

...


i want us to be united and strong
i don't want to change
i don't want you to change
if i can be extreme
you can be extreme too

if you're gevurah, it's vital that you stay gevurah
i'm more chesed, it's vital that i stay chesed
for balance
for strength
for flexibility

and then everyone in the middle can remain everyone in the middle

and we're all strong

and no one has to change

that's my current working theory on jewish unity

with much love and great respect,

-DF-

 

[DustyFeet]

num 15:38-39

 

[RabbiO]

why did you ask?

Because it was a jumping off point for discussion of translation issues. No more, no less.

 

[DustyFeet]

toddah rabbah, rabbi