Problems in JPS (Abrahamic DIR)

[DustyFeet]

this year i am reviewing the JPS english "translation" of the Torah as presented in the Etz Chaim chumash.

personally, i am focusing on translation problems. however i think it would be productive to compile a list of any problems observed in the JPS.

as i understand it, the JPS translation could be described a "free open-source". maybe that's good for software, maybe it's not good for scriptural accuracy.

as a jew, maintaining accuracy in the Tanach is very important to me.

i have 2 examples to start:

gen 26:8 - the verse is not accurately translating "fondling". The word "fondling" is not in the hebrew. i see it translated much more often as some form of "joking" or "jesting".
gen 29:17 - the verse describes leah's eyes as "weak". midrash rabbah reports it as "tender" from crying 70:16

as the year progresses i will update this thread with other translation problems i find.

additions, comments, questions, criticisms are all welcome.

with much love and great respect,

-DF-

 

[RabbiO]

As for Leah's eyes, see Bava Batra 123a.

As for Isaac and Rebecca, there is midrash that the two were not just sitting around sharing laughs, but rather were engaged in, how shall I put it, adult touchy feely.

The larger question here is what is your philosophy of translation?

 

[RabbiO]

Oops!!

I just noticed that the OP was in the Conservative DIR and it is, therefore, inappropriate for me to be posting here.

 

[DustyFeet]

moderator: would u please help me move this thread so that RabbiO and others in the Abrahamic DIR can contribute freely?

 

[DustyFeet]

The larger question here is what is your philosophy of translation?

it's a very good question. i want to answer, but my philosophy on translation is still evolving. hopefully thru this process of rigorous review of the JPS, my take on what represents a "good" translation will solidify.

regarding "what avimelech saw..."

my opinion is:

the translation reporting "fondling" is not accurate. an accurate translation would be "joking" with a footnote referencing the rashi and avot 3:13. these two together, rashi and avot 3:13 clarifies the difference between what ishmael was doing and what isaac was doing. one was frivolous ( an individual "joking" around with an idol ) and the other was not frivolous ( "joking" around within the parameters of a jewish marriage ) ?

most simply, using the word "fondling" is not translation IMHO. using the word "fondling" IMHO is commentary.

edit: i messed up the proverbs reference... it's not 3:13. i'm looking it up now.. sorry
edit: replaced pro 3:13 with pirkei avot 3:13

 

[RabbiO]

moderator: would u please help me move this thread so that RabbiO and others in the Abrahamic DIR can contribute freely?

Perhaps you mean to move it to the General Judaism DIR which would allow Jews of all stripes to respond? Or are you looking for responses from mon-Jews as well?

 

[DustyFeet]

Perhaps you mean to move it to the General Judaism DIR

i would be happy to include everyone

but, i think it would be most productive to limit this thread to people who identify themselves as jewish

does it make sense to simply recreate the thread in the DIR listed above? then you can copy-paste your replies into the new thread? thus saving the mods a tiny bit of extra work?

 

[RabbiO]

i would be happy to include everyone

but, i think it would be most productive to limit this thread to people who identify themselves as jewish

does it make sense to simply recreate the thread in the DIR listed above? then you can copy-paste your replies into the new thread? thus saving the mods a tiny bit of extra work?

Whatever you want to do....presuming it is allowed..... I will work with.

For your info, there is the Abrahamic DIR which allows for those who fit that description to post. That DIR is then broken down into sub-DIRs such as the Judaism DIR which is then further broken down into sub-sub-DIRs such as the Conservative DIR where only Conservative Jews can post and generally take part in discussions. Jews affiliated with other movements can only post questions.

 

[Quintessence]

No need to make a new thread. I merged the old one with this one. ​

 

[RabbiO]

@DustyFeet -

You are familiar with the statement attributed to Rabbi Judah in the Talmud, Kiddushin 49a, regarding translation?

 

[Sakeenah]

As for Leah's eyes, see Bava Batra 123a.

As for Isaac and Rebecca, there is midrash that the two were not just sitting around sharing laughs, but rather were engaged in, how shall I put it, adult touchy feely.

The larger question here is what is your philosophy of translation?

I'm not Jewish so I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions in this thread.
What are you referring to when you said philosophy of translation?
Is every Jewish person allowed to translate the Tanakh to another language or is there a organization that overlooks it?

 

[DustyFeet]

it's a pleasure to meet you, Sakeena.

I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions in this thread.

... my thread, is your thread, make yourself at home

Is every Jewish person allowed to translate the Tanakh

in general, for an english translation, it is not prohibited. however there is a rule prohibiting a "chilul hashem" [ translation: a desecration of the the name ]. full disclosure: I'm not a rabbi, and i don't have the details of this miztvah ( the prohibition against a chilul hashem ) memorized. but i can research it and present it here if there is interest.

 

[DustyFeet]

Gen 28:12

the JPS reports that Jacob had a dream about a "stairway". I am seeing it as a "ladder". Most people will recognize the story as "Jacob's ladder".

the translation of sulam = "stairway" matches the Christian Bible?

examples: New International Version, New Living Translation, Christian Standard Bible, Good News Translation

none of my chumashim translate sulam as "stairway"

 

[DustyFeet]

You are familiar with the statement attributed to Rabbi Judah in the Talmud, Kiddushin 49a, regarding translation?

well i wasn't... but i am now

i defer to you, RabbiO. am i approaching or ( haas v'shalom ) am i already committing blasphemy and sacrilege?

 

[DustyFeet]

why am I reviewing the english in the JPS? I'm not trying to pick on anyone's preferred translation. if one of my favorites disagreed with all the others, it would no longer be my favorite.

for me personally, i enjoy comparing and contrasting the different chumashim in my collection. learning Torah for me is fun. And it's hard to deny the benefits of examining it in detail.

edit: but not frivolous fun

 

[DustyFeet]

"Rabbi Judah said: One who translates a verse according to its form is a liar; and one who adds anything commits blasphemy and sacrilege."

 

[DustyFeet]

according to its form

----------

the word for "servant" ( eved )... looks like a cow?

the ayin is the head with the horns, the vet is the body, and the dalet is the tail?

it reminds me of the concept of an eved hashem, an servant of G-d. accepting the yoke / doing the work. king david referred to himself as an eved hashem.

------------

the four letter name, four letters reminds me of the matriarchs
matriarchs = nurturing?
nurturing = mercy?
13 attributes of mercy
inner mercy + outer mercy = 26
four letter name = 26
i am reminded that the 4 letter name manifests mercy
this is why it is used in so many prayers?

------------

if i am not creating anything new,
if i am only supporting ideas that are "already in place",
am i getting into trouble?

 

[Sakeenah]

it's a pleasure to meet you, Sakeena.



... my thread, is your thread, make yourself at home



in general, for an english translation, it is not prohibited. however there is a rule prohibiting a "chilul hashem" [ translation: a desecration of the the name ]. full disclosure: I'm not a rabbi, and i don't have the details of this miztvah ( the prohibition against a chilul hashem ) memorized. but i can research it and present it here if there is interest.

It's nice to meet you too, and thanks for explaining. I'm interested, I would like to know more about the miztvah.

 

[DustyFeet]

I would like to know more about the miztvah

if this is not enough, i can find more

Chillul Hashem - Wikipedia

there are specific rules prohibiting making changes to the Torah. i think those are limited to changing the Hebrew in a Torah scroll ( aka a kosher sefer Torah ). but i think misrepresenting the Torah's words in english is a chillul hashem.

i think... please help me / correct me someone?

 

[DustyFeet]

none of my chumashim translate sulam as "stairway"

this is interesting

when i searched, samech-lamed-mem ( sulam ) only occurs 1 time in the entire Tanach

there can be... only one... "jacob's ladder"?

looking at its form...

the three dots rendering the "oooo" sound in sulam, look like a ladder ...
...or a stairway


edited to add the higlander ref, couldn't resist, does anyone even remember highlander?