1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Problem of evil, is this a satisfying answer?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nimos, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    5,929
    Ratings:
    +2,203
    Religion:
    Atheist

    couldn't make it through nearly an hour of the video.
    He works on assumptions and presuppositions and he does not have an inkling about the subject of free will.
     
  2. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,810
    Ratings:
    +1,233
    Why did not God create us without this problem ?
     
  3. leov

    leov Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    976
    Ratings:
    +201
    Religion:
    christian
    This is way above my pay grade....
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,318
    Ratings:
    +4,792
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Remember though that evil was not here before humans invited it into their lives. God didn't bring it to mankind, he tried to keep it away from them. They asked for it....they got it, and brought it on their children.

    OK....with free will, came the possibility of choosing something that was wrongly motivated, just as happened in the beginning. A rebel angel influenced wrong thinking in the first humans....but who inspired the original rebel to go against the Creator's order? As a free willed being, he apparently got to envy the worship that was given to his Creator and wanted it for himself. He dwelt on that wrong inclination and allowed it to corrupt his thinking. He acted on it and made himself a "satan" (resister) and a "devil" (slanderer). You can't be a god without devotees, so with the creation of man came an ideal opportunity to make his move.

    Angels are not immortal either for the same reason that humans aren't. God had to have control by being able to eliminate those, who through misusing their free will, would make life hard or even impossible for others. Cooperation and respect for each other, as well as for those in authority are the very basis for a peaceful society. God is the Sovereign authority.

    If we were robotic, without free will, God could have made us immortal, but imagine if all the life that God made, lived forever? What kind of a world would we have if all the cruel and evil despots down through history didn't die?

    If God hadn't given us free will, then he could have made us immortal....instead, he offered us everlasting life to be enjoyed as long as everyone stayed within the parameters that God set. We can get carried away by the thought of "freedom".....but when one person's freedom encroaches on another's, trouble and conflict is never far away.

    And remember that God made plants to grow, yet they normally have a lifespan, like the animals do. Botanical gardens need tending because unmanaged growth would spoil the order. It would end up looking like a wilderness, which has its place, but an ordered garden requires a caretaker to maintain the order, just like humans need order so that society can function.

    People don't choose any genetic abnormality. I have a nephew with a severe case of Tourette's Syndrome. He doesn't choose to offend people with his tics and foul language but he has had to learn to live with them. I just wish others would understand that he can't help how his Syndrome manifests itself. Homosexuals OTOH do have control over their actions, whilst not being able to eliminate their inclinations. Pedophiles too have abnormal sexual leanings and they can control them with help. What you can't do is feed the inclination. Many pedophiles feed their sexual fantasies by viewing child pornography. Whatever you feed grows.

    If a Christian has homosexual leanings, they cannot feed their inclinations if they want to be morally clean in God's eyes.
    A diabetic in a candy store is moments away from a health crisis if he/she gives in to the craving for sweets. Best to avoid the candy store....right? This is what the Bible recommends.
    Homosexuals are not unacceptable to God, but homosexual sex is unclean in his eyes. After all, the sacred seed of life is not to be placed in a sewer.

    Did I say that? I was pointing out that what is acceptable in one era can become unacceptable in another. We don't see slavery being promoted by Jesus, even though it was common in his day.

    Different era, different "norm"...just another kind of slavery.
    I know things are very different from country to country. In the US for example, wages are low and many slave for little income; in service jobs, they have to depend on tips to supplement a meagre wage. It is not unusual for people to have to work several jobs in order to make ends meet...if that is not a form of slavery, I don't know what is.

    The Bible explains that in allowing the devil a free hand, it was for an allotted time. God has promised to step in with the removal of satan's entire system of things, and the introduction of his kingdom to replace it. (Daniel 2:44) God will evict all bad tenants and allow those who have proven worthy, to be granted citizenship in that kingdom. These are the "sheep" and the ones evicted are the "goats" of Matthew 25:32.

    The Catholic Church with its pope and cardinals is the last institution on earth that I would say represents Christianity. Like the Pharisees, they don't follow God's laws but follow man-made traditions.
    Follow the Bible.....something they distort to promote their errors.

    The Jews have as much information about God's means of salvation as anyone else. They choose their own way of reading scripture. But the thing is, it is God who grants understanding of his word. John 6:44 tells us that God "draws" those in whom he finds a good and obedient heart. Conversely, he can 'repel' those who don't. (John 6:65) It is God who opens the door to those knocking. But he does not grant access to just anyone. He can read the heart, not just the thoughts.

    OK, as I mentioned, he was quoting the law which was still in force when he said that. When Jesus ended the law, we find no mention of encouraging any harshness in the form of slavery practised in the day. In fact a runaway slave named Onesimus became a Christian and his Christian master was encouraged to treat him like a brother, not to punish him. (Philemon 15-16)

    The punishment of slaves was appropriate for the day....it is inappropriate for our time, especially when slavery still exists in many poverty stricken countries even now.
    As the world becomes more civilised, we have a right to expect that barbarity would be eliminated, but it still exists because humans do not learn the lessons of the past. Some religious cultures have not progressed since the Biblical era. Their thinking and actions appear to be barbaric compared to western thinking.

    According to the Bible, God's kingdom will "come" ready or not, so we have to be ready for the judgment that precedes it. Just calling yourself a Christian is not going to sway the judge. We have to be found "doing the will of the Father". We have to be spiritually clean, and at peace with God and each other. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 3:11-14)

    Bring it on......I can't wait!
     
  5. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Ratings:
    +187
    Only God can kill angels then, as they cannot die according to the bible, is that what you mean with immortal?

    Luke 20 34;36
    34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
    35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
    36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

    God threw out Satan and the other angels that chose to follow him out of heaven. So those that live with God are good, so I would assume that Earth would be sort of like that, if evil were thrown off the planet. I don't see how that is so hard to imagine, if you can do it with the angels in heaven with God, why not humans then?

    You are pushing the issue. Take you nephew and as you write "I just wish others would understand that he can't help how his Syndrome manifests itself." and my question which you keep pushing, is why is your nephew required or capable of having Tourette syndrome in the first place, it have nothing to do with free will or evil or anything. So why would God bother to make our genes capable of Tourette syndrome in the first place, there is no need or divine reason for it, and if it weren't possible no one would wonder why that was the case?

    "Unclean" is a nice way to put it, as to how God views them, I would say :D

    But you just said in the last post, that people using condoms or pills, where fine. Yet using those make the seed of life end up in the exact same place. Yet that is fine to you?

    Yes, but that tells us nothing other than the US have created a system where certain people are apparently treated bad compared to others. As you say, it varies from country to country.

    For instance in Denmark a waiter (newly graduated) earns around 3.324,76 dollars a month.
    Batender around 3.008,83 dollars a month.
    Computer programmers make an average of 5.847,36 dollars a month. (Obviously this can change a lot, so its the average)

    So a waiter in Denmark is not paid that bad, also the above salary, does not include whatever tips they might get. Which is not normally given in Denmark, but it happens.

    Ok, Who should then tell the Pope and cardinals that they got it wrong and that the ought to do it differently?

    Yes, but as above, the Jews doesn't believe in the NT, so are they just going to figure that out on their own or who should tell them what is correct, Lets say they reach the same conclusion as the Catholic church, which as you say is clearly wrong?

    But the part of the law that says, "you should not kill", we keep that one, right? Because that is good. The laws about killing children we throw away because we don't like that. Who decided which part of the law Jesus ended if we are going to live accordingly to that and use the bible as our guideline? Or do you just assume that if people were all true Christians everyone would live like JWs and therefore know how to behave themselves?
     
    #85 Nimos, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,318
    Ratings:
    +4,792
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Obviously, immortal is the opposite of mortal. An immortal cannot die from any cause.
    Angels are not immortal, even though they do not need any physical means of life support like we mortals do. And ;like us, God will destroy them if they abuse their free will, according to scripture.

    But "everlasting life" is not "immortality". For humans this life was conditional right from the start. Continued life was dependent on obedience to God's commands. So even though mortal beings were not created to die....they could keep living only if they obeyed God's direction. Access to the "tree of life" guaranteed that their lives would not end. (Genesis 3:22-24) Death would only come through disobedience. Sin was the cause of death.....the cause of pain and suffering and every horrible thing in this world.

    This is talking about the resurrection. Those who have their lives restored in the resurrection back to life on earth, will not marry according to this scripture. How difficult would it be for those who had lost their spouse and remarried, if the former spouse was to return expecting to still be married? :eek: Could be very uncomfortable. According to the Bible, death ends a marriage. Though we will still love those who return, I believe that it will be a higher form of love.

    Angels do not marry because they do not reproduce....gender is only necessary for reproduction. There are people today who are A-sexual.....non-sexual.....with no physical sex drive who, despite their need for companionship, don't need sex at all. You can love someone without it being sexual.

    When rebel angels materialized in Noah's day, they did so to indulge in the pleasures of the flesh....something that was completely unnatural for them. (Genesis 6:1-8) They even produced a hybrid race of freakish humans who grew into gigantic bullies and who were violent and immoral in the extreme. They were a terrible influence on mankind, so God wiped them all out and stopped those demons from ever materializing again.

    But when did God evict the devil and his demons? We believe it was at the beginning of the period that the Bible calls "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4) This is the time when Jesus was appointed as King of God's kingdom. Daniel also saw this in vision (Daniel 7:13-14) and since all of Daniel's prophesies were to be understood only at "the time of the end", we believe that Jesus evicted the devil and his demons only about 100 years ago. Life on earth has plunged into a completely degraded state since that time, never knowing peace since the First World War, completing a series of world events that Jesus said would identify the time of his "presence". (Matthew 24:3-14; Revelation 12:7-12) The apostle John wrote his Revelation at the end of the first century...it was all to take place in the future. Revelation 21:3-4 is the result....

    "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

    Doesn't that describe an earth free from evil? This what I look forward to.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,318
    Ratings:
    +4,792
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Do you understand what sin is? According to the apostle Paul it is something inherent in humans that manifests itself in physical, mental and spiritual defects. It creates a 'war' inside a person trying to do the right thing. (Romans 7:14-25) "Sin" is an archery term that means "to miss the mark". We all now "miss that mark" of perfection, resulting in all manner of imperfections.

    Homosexuality, unlike Tourette's Syndrome is a genetic abnormality....not an illness. If the homosexual is a Christian, then they will have to exercise self control, just like someone who cannot find a marriage mate. Not having sex is not life threatening.

    Since sexual intimacy is confined to scriptural marriage, regardless of gender, those who commit adultery or fornication (sex with a person who is not your marriage mate) are guilty under God's law. (Hebrews 13:4)
    God does not recognize SS marriage.

    God calls all such conduct "unclean"....it describes it well from his perspective I think. He even describes false worship as spiritual adultery.

    Is that what I said? I was referring to the act itself. What people choose to do to avoid a pregnancy is up to an individual's conscience. Some birth control is abortive which would not be OK with God. Sex is an intimate expression between a married man and woman in a committed relationship. That relationship was designed by God to produce a family. Yet there is nothing to command them to have children.....it is usually a choice because, unlike former times, no one has an excuse to fall pregnant today unless they want to. Those who are careless and rely on abortion as a form of birth control are actually committing murder, according to the Bible.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,318
    Ratings:
    +4,792
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    It is very similar in Australia. Our wages are relatively high but then so is the cost of living. We don't routinely tip because wages are good here.

    The other thing that keeps Americans enslaved to their jobs is health insurance. People will often stay in a job they hate rather than risk losing their health cover. We have health insurance separate to our employment. If we lose our job, we don't lose our health insurance.

    They have exactly the same access to God's word as everyone else. Who told the Pharisees that they had it all wrong in Jesus' day? The Bible says we should be able to identify those who teach the truth by how closely they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Do we see exemplary conduct from those in positions of authority in the Catholic Church? Do we see the church supporting the wars of their respective nations when Jesus taught us to "love our enemies".....how do you do that with weapons?

    As a nation, Jesus said that they would never 'figure it out'. They stubbornly stick to their errors and have done so for centuries. Individuals have come to Christ, (all of the first Christians were Jewish) but Israel never will. (Matthew 23:37-39)

    If we live by the two most important commands that Jesus gave, we cannot go wrong. If we 'love God with our whole heart, mind and soul', we will be careful not to cause offense to him by our words or actions....and if we 'love our neighbor as ourselves' then we will never do to others what we would not like done to ourselves. See how easy it is to tell who are the true Christians?

    The reason why I was drawn to JW's is not because they are perfect, but because they sincerely try to practice what they preach....and they take all of Christ's teachings seriously....not just the convenient things. (Luke 16:10)

    Jesus told his disciples that they must take the Christian message out to the people....teaching them what the Bible says, and making disciples of those who respond to the "good news" that was to be preached "in all the inhabited earth" before God brings an end to this wicked world system. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) I can't see any other church doing what JW's do, in a united brotherhood that preaches the same message all over the world. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Ratings:
    +187
    Yes but none the less, its the comparison that Jesus makes that is important, not the stuff about marriage, he compare it to angels which he say can not die. If they could, why use them as an comparison as that would make him a liar?

    This is what is so confusing, because you just wrote before:
    If we were robotic, without free will, God could have made us immortal, but imagine if all the life that God made, lived forever? What kind of a world would we have if all the cruel and evil despots down through history didn't die?

    Then why did you write this, you say you look forward to it, so clearly it is possible for you to imagine how it would be. As you in fact seem to prefer it. So God could simply remove evil from the planet and you would get what you want.

    So what you are suggesting here is, when science is capable of manipulating genes in such a way, that Tourette syndrome can be cured and all other genetic abnormality as well, That science can remove sin?

    No, but it is a limitation forced upon them for no logic reason. And teaching people, who are homosexuals or not that this is wrong is plain and simply immoral towards those that are, because its a teaching based on stupidity which can cause people to treat those that are homosexuals bad, because they might feel encourage to do it, based on the none sense that some religions teaches people.

    1. So pills are not ok, correct?
    2. "Yet there is nothing to command them to have children" If there is nothing to command them to have children, why does it matter then if two men or women enjoy each other? Because you wrote in the last reply "After all, the sacred seed of life is not to be placed in a sewer." so if people uses a condom, they don't keep it for later use, they throw it out, so it end up the same place, in the "sewer".

    I agree with you, but the point was that this is self inflicted due to how we have made the system, its not directed by an all good God. So making comparisons and claiming that slavery during biblical times weren't really that bad, as you said earlier makes no sense, they are not comparable. But lets take a look at what the bible actually say about slavery in a sarcastic way to compare them by going through them verse by verse:

    Exedus 21
    1 These are the case laws that you should set before them:
    2 When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he will serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he will go free without any payment.


    So after 6 years of "employment" he is to go free with no payment. So at least it not forever.

    3 If he came in single, he will leave single. If he came in married, then his wife will leave with him.

    So this seems pretty fair, and guess this works sort of like, buy one and get one for free kind of thing.

    4 If his master gave him a wife and she bore him sons or daughters, the wife and her children will belong to her master. He will leave single.

    This is not so good, I think

    5 However, if the slave clearly states, "I love my master, my wife, and my children, and I don't want to go free,"
    6 then his master will bring him before God. He will bring him to the door or the doorpost. There his master will pierce his ear with a pointed tool, and he will serve him as his slave for life.


    The employee have a free choice to make, which is very decent. So if he is willing to leave his wife and children, he can be a free man. If not, then he will be offered a life time of employment. What opportunities!! :D

    7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shouldn't be set free in the same way as male slaves are set free.

    So fathers are even able to help their daughters get a job. That seems to be what most parents would like for their child.

    8 If she doesn't please her master who chose her for himself, then her master must let her be bought back by her family. He has no right to sell her to a foreign people since he has treated her unfairly.

    Ohh wait, but if she is unable to "please" her master, he can always return her. Guess that is sort of good, if the product is faulty then there is a solution for that as well.

    9 If he assigns her to his son, he must give her the rights of a daughter.

    Dammit, there is more, so he can give her to his son instead and then she have to be treated as a daughter, excellent. Wonder if that means that he can then help her find a new job then?

    10 If he takes another woman for himself, he may not reduce her food, clothing, or marital rights.

    That is good at least, so there are some employee security.

    11 If he doesn't do these three things for her, she will go free without any payment, for no money.

    Look at that, if he doesn't do any of these, she can go free without payment, and she doesn't even have to pay anything!!. I have to say this is perfect, and really show how everyones needs are taken into consideration. God really made an effort here, that is obvious :)

    But there is more:

    20 When a slave owner hits a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner should be punished.

    So God did think about justice, after all.

    21 But if the slave gets up after a day or two, the slave owner shouldn't be punished because the slave is the owner's property.

    Wait... but if the employee didn't die, the owner is not guilty because he was so kind to employ a person without a job. Amazing!!

    So are we able to identify them, who do you think they are, because Ill be honest, I have no clue?

    I actually do respect that about JW, I think you are wrong in a lot of places. But I don't doubt that you take the teachings seriously.
     
    #89 Nimos, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  10. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,735
    Ratings:
    +1,165
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Here's the thing.... "the problem of evil" - only a problem for the religious who believe in an omnipotent & omnibenevolent god.

    I, from my atheist non-believer perspective, don't see a "problem of evil" that requires any reconsiliation with any a priori beliefs....

    "the problem of evil" is in fact about how to reconcile a world where evil occurs, with the existance of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity.

    So unless you have faith based beliefs in such a deity, there is no such problem.
     
  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,735
    Ratings:
    +1,165
    Religion:
    Atheist
    He's saying that the trait of omnipotence would make this God able to remove any pain and suffering with a snap of his virtual fingers without breaking a sweat.

    No matter the situation, no matter the circumstances.
    An omnipotent being can ALWAYS and INSTANTLY, by definition, take all pain away.

    The "problem of evil", is literally that: how can you reconcile a being that is both omnipotent as well as omnibenevolent, with a universe where suffering, pain and evil exists?

    This is only a problem for people who actually believe that a being exists that is both omnipotent as well as benevolent.
     
  12. Road Warrior

    Road Warrior Seeking the middle path..

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,444
    Ratings:
    +423
    Yes, but he's also saying that because God doesn't do that then either God isn't omnipotent or that God doesn't exist. That's a false conclusion as any Deist knows.

    Pain Evil
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,810
    Ratings:
    +1,233
    That's alright.
    But can you think of one thing that could justify it ?
     
  14. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,810
    Ratings:
    +1,233
    Or God is not omnibenevolent...
    Curiously, the problem of evil is also called the problem of suffering.
    Even if we don't frame suffering as evil per se, the logical problem still arises.
    It is logically incompatible to claim someone is good in an unlimited manner whilst at the same time claim that this individual is making you undergo unnecessary suffering.
     
  15. leov

    leov Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    976
    Ratings:
    +201
    Religion:
    christian
    Creating us without problem means programming us or other way let us work it out on our own, even because of fear of god in the beginning, individual by individual through collective unconscious. Example , slavery, at some point 'hundred monkeys' decided that slavery was unacceptable.
     
  16. Road Warrior

    Road Warrior Seeking the middle path..

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,444
    Ratings:
    +423
    Another non sequitur. Does a first grader think their parents are evil or lack benevolence for making the child go to school? Possibly, but are the parents really evil or lacking in benevolence for doing so? Of course not.
     
  17. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,810
    Ratings:
    +1,233
    Why does it mean programming us ? And why doesn't it mean programming us when we have problems ? If anything, softwares generally have problems.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,810
    Ratings:
    +1,233
    You are comparing apples to oranges in all counts.
    First of all, going to school is not really comparable to all sorts of suffering that can afflict someone on this world.
    Second, parents are not omnipotent, they generally can't teach their children efficiently at home.
    A more proper analogy would be: Is a parent lacking in benevolence if he forces his child to go to school even though he knows that (1) his child will be bullied, and (2) he could just snap his fingers and make the child learn everything there is to be learned at school ? I would say: Yes, without any shadow of doubt.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. leov

    leov Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    976
    Ratings:
    +201
    Religion:
    christian
    We are copies of God and reflect God's nature, Supreme being has no competition , we do, Cain and Abel story reflect it. Our behavior is what we are naturally but it is fixable, making us all good and sweet violates our nature unless we do it by ourselves changing our egos by our own free will.
     
  20. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,810
    Ratings:
    +1,233
    Why does it violate our nature, and why would it be bad to violate our nature ?
     
Loading...