Probably The Most Entertaining Tour And Critique Of Ken Ham's Ark To Date

[Skwim]

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[Shadow Wolf]

Controversy sells. Bill Nye is a doofus because he basically funnels money into the coffers of AiG.
And how proud of yourself are you for filling the stereotyped role an atheist who is obsessed with religion and bashing it? And given the current climate where Conservatives are loosing social power and control the best thing to do is just ignore things that are of their own private use that really isn't going to serve or cater to anyone who isn't already interested. There is school curriculum and public policy to protect from them, but areas where it's "whatever" just leave them be.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not sure why @Shadow Wolf is so fiercely critical. To me, the very existence of this idiotic "museum," and the fact that so many Americans actually pay money to visit it and be awed into what I might call "reverse education*" is just plain sad. And sad to say, tempts me to lower my opinion of Americans overall, even though that is unfair.

* Reverse education: Education comes from Latin 'e duco' meaning "I lead out," where in this case, the Ken Ham travesty is attempting a very great deal of "putting in" stuff that just isn't real. And to be clear, I think that is to the detriment of the nation as whole. The world is changing, and willful stupidity is very, very likely to be weeded out by the usual evolutionary forces. MAGA, in that reality, will last for a very, very short time.

 

[Skwim]

And how proud of yourself are you for filling the stereotyped role an atheist who is obsessed with religion and bashing it?

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[Rational Agnostic]

* Reverse education: Education comes from Latin 'e duco' meaning "I lead out," where in this case, the Ken Ham travesty is attempting a very great deal of "putting in" stuff that just isn't real. And to be clear, I think that is to the detriment of the nation as whole. The world is changing, and willful stupidity is very, very likely to be weeded out by the usual evolutionary forces. MAGA, in that reality, will last for a very, very short time.

Hmm...I disagree with your idea that willful ignorance of evolution will be "weeded out" by natural selection. How does belief in a creation myth lead to decreased survival and/or reproduction? It doesn't. In fact, the hard-core evangelicals tend to breed the most, so, if anything, natural selection would probably favor their willful ignorance. This, of course most importantly, assumes that willful ignorance is a heritable, and not acquired, trait. I'm not so convinced it's actually heritable, so I don't know that it makes a difference either way. In any case, I don't think your argument is correct. But maybe it was intended to be a joke.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

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I'd seen that one, and several other openly atheist YouTubers who had gone in on that thing, and pointed out it's multitude of flaws.

Of course... it is low-hanging fruit. By the time I had taken 8th grade biology class, I already realized the ark story was impossible, and couldn't have happened even a little like it was written.

And I was a practicing Christian in the 8th grade, too.

I wonder? Did Noah use Tyvec® plastic moisture barrier too?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not sure why @Shadow Wolf is so fiercely critical.

Because I'd rather see AiG and everything about forgotten and left to obscurity. There are also two issues with attacking. One is it takes away from resources and time from defending public policy, and such attacks provoke Evangelicals to more than double down on their beliefs. These attacks also give them free publicity and make them money. That's why Bill Nye is a moron for debating Ken Ham, because he changes no ones mind but it gives attention and money to AiG.

 

[Father Heathen]

Controversy sells. Bill Nye is a doofus because he basically funnels money into the coffers of AiG.
And how proud of yourself are you for filling the stereotyped role an atheist who is obsessed with religion and bashing it? And given the current climate where Conservatives are loosing social power and control the best thing to do is just ignore things that are of their own private use that really isn't going to serve or cater to anyone who isn't already interested. There is school curriculum and public policy to protect from them, but areas where it's "whatever" just leave them be.

Exactly. Don't validate them by pretending that they're relevant.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Hmm...I disagree with your idea that willful ignorance of evolution will be "weeded out" by natural selection. How does belief in a creation myth lead to decreased survival and/or reproduction? It doesn't. In fact, the hard-core evangelicals tend to breed the most, so, if anything, natural selection would probably favor their willful ignorance. This, of course most importantly, assumes that willful ignorance is a heritable, and not acquired, trait. I'm not so convinced it's actually heritable, so I don't know that it makes a difference either way. In any case, I don't think your argument is correct. But maybe it was intended to be a joke.

No, I did not mean it as a joke. You see, I happen to believe that those who don't delude themselves with ancient mythology and superstition, and instead pay attention to and learn from what science can teach them, will have a very real, and quite possibly very terrible, advantage over those who wallow in self-imposed ignorance. And as a result, they will have better luck procreating, and that, I'm afraid, is all that evolution needs.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Whereas I understand the sentiment as expressed by @Shadow Wolf and @Father Heathen?

And to a certain degree, they do have a point?

You cannot simply ignore it, when someone straps on a bomb-vest and runs into a crowded market place.

Creationism is the educational equivalent of a bomb vest-- only the "explosion" damages thinking and education.

Creationists dilute education with nonsense, and if you just ignore them? They not only won't go away?

They will get the even more ridiculous "intelligent design" into public schools.

Sometimes, you have to confront lunacy head-on.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Because I'd rather see AiG and everything about forgotten and left to obscurity. There are also two issues with attacking. One is it takes away from resources and time from defending public policy, and such attacks provoke Evangelicals to more than double down on their beliefs. These attacks also give them free publicity and make them money. That's why Bill Nye is a moron for debating Ken Ham, because he changes no ones mind but it gives attention and money to AiG.

Interesting, and in a lot of ways I think I agree. I have learned, after all, that using reason to debate religious belief of any kind is 100% ineffective for the simple reason that you cannot reason someone out of something that they were never reasoned into.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You cannot simply ignore it, when someone straps on a bomb-vest and runs into a crowded market place.

Creationism is the educational equivalent of a bomb vest-- only the "explosion" damages thinking and education.

Those bomb vests are when they try to get it taught as school curriculum. That is where the battles must be fought. That Ark Park is silly, but it can only die in obscurity if it's left alone, instead of poked at, which will only entrench conservatives to keep fighting. It's what they want to believe, and they aren't trying to force it on anyone with that Park. Let them be the ones to waste resources on it. We have much more important battles to fight than wasting resources over such a silly thing and going with intentions that will very likely backfire. It's not easy leaving those beliefs behind, and it isn't any easier when there are fingers that mock and point instead of hands to guide.

 

[Father Heathen]

Whereas I understand the sentiment as expressed by @Shadow Wolf and @Father Heathen?

And to a certain degree, they do have a point?

You cannot simply ignore it, when someone straps on a bomb-vest and runs into a crowded market place.

Creationism is the educational equivalent of a bomb vest-- only the "explosion" damages thinking and education.

Creationists dilute education with nonsense, and if you just ignore them? They not only won't go away?

They will get the even more ridiculous "intelligent design" into public schools.

Sometimes, you have to confront lunacy head-on.

Don't get me wrong; they most certainly need to be dealt with if/when they attempt to meddle in government and public education.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Interesting, and in a lot of ways I think I agree. I have learned, after all, that using reason to debate religious belief of any kind is 100% ineffective for the simple reason that you cannot reason someone out of something that they were never reasoned into.

I wouldn't say they weren't "never reasoned into it." They do present their reasoning, their logic, their evidence. Whether you agree with it or not, this cannot be ignored or forgotten.
Myself, I had to be removed from the heavily insulated and censored "bubble" of the church, exposed to new information, and gently being shown my beliefs were wrong - one of the first things that lead me down the path of deconvertion, and entirely making it possible, was realizing the world just is not out to hate on and persecute Christians as I had been lead to believe. Without that I probably wouldn't have been open or receptive to any other information that contradicted what the church had taught me.

 

[Skwim]

That Ark Park is silly, but it can only die in obscurity if it's left alone, instead of poked at, which will only entrench conservatives to keep fighting.

A vastly overstated misrepresentation of the situation. The few who bother to read internet discussions/debates such as this or see YouTube videos about the Ark are nothing compared to the thousands upon thousands curious enough to walk through it. Nope, the Ark park isn't going to die because a few people don't "poke" at it. It will eventually die because of the dwindling interest---Been there. Done that.---and indebtedness. I can almost see

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waiting down the road.

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[David T]

Hmm...I disagree with your idea that willful ignorance of evolution will be "weeded out" by natural selection. How does belief in a creation myth lead to decreased survival and/or reproduction? It doesn't. In fact, the hard-core evangelicals tend to breed the most, so, if anything, natural selection would probably favor their willful ignorance. This, of course most importantly, assumes that willful ignorance is a heritable, and not acquired, trait. I'm not so convinced it's actually heritable, so I don't know that it makes a difference either way. In any case, I don't think your argument is correct. But maybe it was intended to be a joke.

That at some wierd level says that crew is more aligned with nature than atheism and atheism will go extinct!!! That's interesting interpretaion.

 

[David T]

Controversy sells. Bill Nye is a doofus because he basically funnels money into the coffers of AiG.
And how proud of yourself are you for filling the stereotyped role an atheist who is obsessed with religion and bashing it? And given the current climate where Conservatives are loosing social power and control the best thing to do is just ignore things that are of their own private use that really isn't going to serve or cater to anyone who isn't already interested. There is school curriculum and public policy to protect from them, but areas where it's "whatever" just leave them be.

"And how proud of yourself are you for filling the stereotyped role an atheist who is obsessed with religion and bashing it"

Ha ha ha now that's a good zing. Actually.

When people go after creationism they simply articulating to the level they underatand the topic is all shadow.So if i am totally lame dont understand much then ken ham is my default level inside and outside religion.

Notice atheists never post john muir, or ditreich bonhoffer, or even bultmann or barth or Merton. They have zero idea what a broad spectrum just christianity is let alone other traditions. Yes lame definitely exists inside and outside religon. They support eaxh other.

Many many athiests are harry porter fans and tolkien fans with no idea about the authors really. A lot of it i think is growing up in dysfunctional homes and religion being abused in the homes. Dont blame em for that at all.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Those bomb vests are when they try to get it taught as school curriculum. That is where the battles must be fought. That Ark Park is silly, but it can only die in obscurity if it's left alone, instead of poked at, which will only entrench conservatives to keep fighting. It's what they want to believe, and they aren't trying to force it on anyone with that Park. Let them be the ones to waste resources on it. We have much more important battles to fight than wasting resources over such a silly thing and going with intentions that will very likely backfire. It's not easy leaving those beliefs behind, and it isn't any easier when there are fingers that mock and point instead of hands to guide.

As is your habit, you do make a very good case.

And I take your point, that the main battles should be fought in classrooms.

On the third hand, there are quite a number of folk who actually are on the fence, not having given creationism that much thought or consideration.

And a very slick Con Game that Hamm has created, could very well convince them that Creationism just isn't that bad, and maybe ought to be allowed in Science class.

Those people? Need to have the sheer lunacy of the Ark Encounter hammered home to them over and over, lest they fall sway to the slick con artist that is Ken Hamm.

Lots of people don't know how to think very well, even though they are generally decent folk. And they can be taken in by the Hamms.

So I think it's worth while to do as Bill Nye and others do, to take these modern day Snake Oil Salesmen to Task.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

No, I did not mean it as a joke. You see, I happen to believe that those who don't delude themselves with ancient mythology and superstition, and instead pay attention to and learn from what science can teach them, will have a very real, and quite possibly very terrible, advantage over those who wallow in self-imposed ignorance. And as a result, they will have better luck procreating, and that, I'm afraid, is all that evolution needs.

I think you're incorrect. First off, you don't have to understand science to use the tools that science gives us. Secondly, YECs aren't necessarily ignorant about engineering/physics. I don't think that irrationality or willful ignorance implies a lower intelligence or a lack of ability to compete with others. In any case, I think that the key to solving the problem is education, especially in young people. I think public schools need to go further when teaching the evidence for evolution. I remember my HS biology class only briefly touched on evolution, and the evidence that the curricula offered in favor of evolution was weak compared with the evidence that could have been presented. Science education needs to be improved.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And a very slick Con Game that Hamm has created, could very well convince them that Creationism just isn't that bad, and maybe ought to be allowed in Science class.

And where do you suppose he gets the money to do that? Evangelicals LOVE someone like Hamm who stands up directly against those who are against their beliefs. Even defying court orders and laws are praised when it's done in the name of god. There pamphlets about the Nye/Hamm debates would be frequently and widely covered, they would list all the reasons Nye and evolution are wrong, the Bible verses that defend their position, and then praise Hamm for "quoting the truth" and something to the extent of "fighting the Devil's lies about evolution."
It cannot be under estimated how much of a persecution complex they have. People who die for Christ are glorified, and those who can legitimately say they stood up to defend Evangelic Christian values are legends. Because of the Nye/Hamm debates, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ark Park has ascended to a sort of "Disney World" and the Creation Museum "Disney Land" of Evangelicals. It has all the makings of a "good, wholesome, Christian family vacation."
And, truly, I don't think it's a con for Hamm. I think he truly believes. He's not on TV mocking how much money he's milking people for, he's out there standing up for the word of god as his shield, sword, and armor, and educating the world about god's message and how the truth is before us if you just look and "read the instruction manual." (actual memeish bumper sticker thingy, in reference to the Bible).