Pro-life is not just opposing abortion, Vatican says after U.S. ruling

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks, as I now think I understand where you are coming from. In this case the only viable option may have been the use of a surrogate, which of course never would have been suggested buy a Catholic hospital.

... in a doctrine that doesn't really have anything to do with a "pro-life" position. That's just their dogma that sex and procreation (or at least the potential for it) shouldn't be separated.

... which ends up being pretty contrary to a consistent "pro-life" position a lot of the time, too: no contraception even if it will prevent an abortion, no condoms even if they'll stop someone dying of an infectious disease, etc.

 

[pearl]

Republicans across the United States cast the supreme court’s decision last month that allowed states to ban abortion as a victory for “life”. Left unsaid was the quality of life that families and mothers set to be left dealing with unplanned pregnancies might have.
After Roe, are Republicans willing to expand the social safety net? (msn.com)

 

[Rival]

When we take the facts in a typical abortion, it doesn't intuitively FEEL wrong. Furthermore, there is no urge to punish the woman who aborts. The absence of this urge verifies that the act is not wrongful.

I can see you've had this debate with @Augustus before and @Vouthon has already engaged with you so I'm not going to belabour this here.

I just want to say that, to most women including myself, abortion does intuitively feel wrong. I know I couldn't do it. Most women who go for abortions wrangle over it for weeks. This is not in any sense a typical thing (I'm not sure what you mean by 'typical abortion?) Most women don't go into this lightly and often take it up with her spouse/boyfriend (understandably), family, and friends beforehand.

For your perusal, here are some quotes and stats from the British Journal of Psychiatry,

The first random effects meta-analysis, which included 36 adjusted odds ratios from the 22 studies identified, resulted in a pooled odds ratio of 1.81 (95% CI 1.57–2.09, P<0.0001). The results of this analysis indicated that women who have had an abortion experienced an 81% higher risk of mental health problems of various forms when compared with women who had not had an abortion (Fig. 1). Results of a second random effects meta-analysis, wherein separate effects were produced based on the type of outcome measure, are provided in Fig. 2. All effects were statistically significant, with the largest pooled odds ratio derived for marijuana use (OR = 3.30, 95% CI 1.64–7.44, P = 0.001), followed by suicide behaviours (OR = 2.55, 95% CI 1.31–4.96, P = 0.006), alcohol use/misuse (OR = 2.10, 95% CI 1.77–2.49, P<0.0001), depression (OR = 1.37, 95% CI 1.22–1.53, P<0.0001) and anxiety (OR = 1.34, 95% CI 1.12–1.59, P<0.0001). These results indicate that the level of increased risk associated with abortion varies from 34% to 230% depending on the nature of the outcome.

In the third random effects meta-analysis (Fig. 3) three separate pooled odds ratios were produced based on the type of comparison group employed in the respective studies. When women who had terminated a pregnancy were compared with women who had not done so relative to all mental health problems, the result was statistically significant (OR = 1.59, 95% CI 1.36–1.85, P<0.0001). When women who terminated a pregnancy were compared with women who carried to term, using the full set of mental health variables, the result was considerably stronger (OR = 2.38, 95% CI 1.62–3.50, P<0.0001). Finally, when ‘unintended pregnancy carried to term’ operated as the comparison group, the result was likewise statistically significant and closer to the result relative to the ‘no abortion’ comparison group (OR = 1.55, 95% CI 1.30–1.83, P<0.0001). These data indicate that regardless of the type of comparison group used, abortion is associated with an enhanced risk of experiencing mental health problems, with the magnitude of this risk ranging from 55% to 138%.

[...]

Based on data extracted from 22 studies, the results of this meta-analytic review of the abortion and mental health literature indicate quite consistently that abortion is associated with moderate to highly increased risks of psychological problems subsequent to the procedure. The magnitude of effects derived varied based on the comparison group (no abortion, pregnancy delivered, unintended pregnancy delivered) and the type of problem examined (alcohol use/misuse, marijuana use, anxiety, depression, suicidal behaviours). Overall, the results revealed that women who had undergone an abortion experienced an 81% increased risk of mental health problems, and nearly 10% of the incidence of mental health problems was shown to be directly attributable to abortion. The strongest effects were observed when women who had had an abortion were compared with women who had carried to term and when the outcomes measured related to substance use and suicidal behaviour. Great care was taken to assess accurately the risks from the most methodologically sophisticated studies, and the quantitatively based conclusions reflect data gathered on over three-quarters of a million women. Of particular significance is the fact that all effects entered into the analyses were adjusted odds ratios with controls for numerous third variables.

Abortion and mental health: quantitative synthesis and analysis of research published 1995–2009 | The British Journal of Psychiatry | Cambridge Core

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is it OK that one gets pregnant repeatedly (say every three months or so) and goes for abortion? Where do we draw the line?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is it OK that one gets pregnant repeatedly (say every three months or so) and goes for abortion? Where do we draw the line?

Is it OK that one refuses to donate blood repeatedly? Where do we draw the line?

 

[joe1776]

I can see you've had this debate with @Augustus before and @Vouthon has already engaged with you so I'm not going to belabour this here.

You are mistaken. I've never debated the abortion issue with Augustus or Vouthon. My debate with Augustus concerns the nature of human moral intuition.

My discussions with Vouthon have concerned the Catholic Church's position on conscience generally. In this last post with him, Vouthon explained what seemed like a contradiction in the Church's position. The American bishops don't seem to understand the Church's position as Vouthon explained it, but that's not his problem.

I just want to say that, to most women including myself, abortion does intuitively feel wrong. I know I couldn't do it.

You can't possibly know what most women feel anymore than I can claim to know what most men feel. Moreover, you can't judge what a woman with an unwanted pregnancy might feel if you have never had to face the problem.

Pew Surveys show 63% of American women support legal abortion, 35% oppose.

We can be sure that the argument made by the Pro-Life group fails because, logically, it makes no sense to claim that abortion is tantamount to murder, and to punish abortion clinics, but not severely punish the woman who aborts. That's like punishing the accomplices but not the murderer.

For your perusal, here are some quotes and stats from the British Journal of Psychiatry,

Thanks for your effort, but I don't find the information persuasive for three reasons:

(1) The question under discussion is whether or not most abortions are moral. Whether they are detrimental to a woman's mental health is an irrelevant issue.

(2) In order to determine whether having an abortion caused mental health problems, researchers would have to study women before and after an abortion. Perhaps women with mental health problems have more unwanted pregnancies.

(3) Studies in Psychology and Psychiatry have been subject to a "replication crisis." A huge meta-analysis of 100 studies showed that more than 50% failed to replicate.

 

[metis]

So, is the answer to force women to have unwanted babies because they cannot end the pregnancy?

Nope.

I am pro-life, but we do not have a theocracy here in the States; thus majority rule should apply, and Roe v Wade was supported by a clear majority.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Is it OK that one gets pregnant repeatedly (say every three months or so) and goes for abortion? Where do we draw the line?

We shouldn't. And this situation is minority represented. With less than a quarter of people who have had abortions having three or more. Places with highest multiple accidental pregnancy are places with highest poverty and lowest access to family planning, including contraceptives.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I can see you've had this debate with @Augustus before and @Vouthon has already engaged with you so I'm not going to belabour this here.

I just want to say that, to most women including myself, abortion does intuitively feel wrong. I know I couldn't do it. Most women who go for abortions wrangle over it for weeks. This is not in any sense a typical thing (I'm not sure what you mean by 'typical abortion?) Most women don't go into this lightly and often take it up with her spouse/boyfriend (understandably), family, and friends beforehand.

For your perusal, here are some quotes and stats from the British Journal of Psychiatry,

The first random effects meta-analysis, which included 36 adjusted odds ratios from the 22 studies identified, resulted in a pooled odds ratio of 1.81 (95% CI 1.57–2.09, P<0.0001). The results of this analysis indicated that women who have had an abortion experienced an 81% higher risk of mental health problems of various forms when compared with women who had not had an abortion (Fig. 1). Results of a second random effects meta-analysis, wherein separate effects were produced based on the type of outcome measure, are provided in Fig. 2. All effects were statistically significant, with the largest pooled odds ratio derived for marijuana use (OR = 3.30, 95% CI 1.64–7.44, P = 0.001), followed by suicide behaviours (OR = 2.55, 95% CI 1.31–4.96, P = 0.006), alcohol use/misuse (OR = 2.10, 95% CI 1.77–2.49, P<0.0001), depression (OR = 1.37, 95% CI 1.22–1.53, P<0.0001) and anxiety (OR = 1.34, 95% CI 1.12–1.59, P<0.0001). These results indicate that the level of increased risk associated with abortion varies from 34% to 230% depending on the nature of the outcome.

In the third random effects meta-analysis (Fig. 3) three separate pooled odds ratios were produced based on the type of comparison group employed in the respective studies. When women who had terminated a pregnancy were compared with women who had not done so relative to all mental health problems, the result was statistically significant (OR = 1.59, 95% CI 1.36–1.85, P<0.0001). When women who terminated a pregnancy were compared with women who carried to term, using the full set of mental health variables, the result was considerably stronger (OR = 2.38, 95% CI 1.62–3.50, P<0.0001). Finally, when ‘unintended pregnancy carried to term’ operated as the comparison group, the result was likewise statistically significant and closer to the result relative to the ‘no abortion’ comparison group (OR = 1.55, 95% CI 1.30–1.83, P<0.0001). These data indicate that regardless of the type of comparison group used, abortion is associated with an enhanced risk of experiencing mental health problems, with the magnitude of this risk ranging from 55% to 138%.

[...]

Based on data extracted from 22 studies, the results of this meta-analytic review of the abortion and mental health literature indicate quite consistently that abortion is associated with moderate to highly increased risks of psychological problems subsequent to the procedure. The magnitude of effects derived varied based on the comparison group (no abortion, pregnancy delivered, unintended pregnancy delivered) and the type of problem examined (alcohol use/misuse, marijuana use, anxiety, depression, suicidal behaviours). Overall, the results revealed that women who had undergone an abortion experienced an 81% increased risk of mental health problems, and nearly 10% of the incidence of mental health problems was shown to be directly attributable to abortion. The strongest effects were observed when women who had had an abortion were compared with women who had carried to term and when the outcomes measured related to substance use and suicidal behaviour. Great care was taken to assess accurately the risks from the most methodologically sophisticated studies, and the quantitatively based conclusions reflect data gathered on over three-quarters of a million women. Of particular significance is the fact that all effects entered into the analyses were adjusted odds ratios with controls for numerous third variables.

Abortion and mental health: quantitative synthesis and analysis of research published 1995–2009 | The British Journal of Psychiatry | Cambridge Core

People struggling for weeks, months or years accepting their LGBT status, too, doesn't mean it's wrong for them to do so, even if that fear manifests as anxiety or depression, but means they've internalized social prejudice.

Bet you could find similar evidence showing greater mental stability issues in people of various minority status including disabled people coming to terms with not being the person society wants them to be. Has nothing to do with intrinsic moral value and everything to do with socially established expectation.

 

[Estro Felino]

Is it OK that one gets pregnant repeatedly (say every three months or so) and goes for abortion? Where do we draw the line?

It is not allowed here. Abortion is not a contraceptive.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Nope.

I am pro-life, but we do not have a theocracy here in the States; thus majority rule should apply, and Roe v Wade was supported by a clear majority.

What do you think about the church not allowing birth control. Lets agree that ending a life is wrong but what is wrong with preventing an unwanted life from even beginning? It would be much easier and lower cost to make birth control available to any woman at any time. No one would have to worry about ending a life because there would be no life to end. It would just be prevented.

 

[metis]

What do you think about the church not allowing birth control.

I have never agreed with the Church on this.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I have never agreed with the Church on this.

Thank you for your honesty. Seems to me that free birth control for anyone who wants it would go a long way in ending unwanted pregnancies.

 

[metis]

Thank you for your honesty. Seems to me that free birth control for anyone who wants it would go a long way in ending unwanted pregnancies.

Thanks, and I also feel it's important simply because of too many people on our small planet. A study done about 10 years ago concluded that Planet Earth could handle up to around 3 billion people before outstripping our resources, and we're more than double that now.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The Swiss Guard are armed with halberds

Yes, but if they carry them in their mouths, they are indeed 'armed to the teeth'.

(More seriously, their armory includes modern weapons, not just ceremonial)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Is it OK that one gets pregnant repeatedly (say every three months or so) and goes for abortion? Where do we draw the line?

What line is it that we are drawing, in your mind?
What does 'OK' mean here?

If you mean 'Is it a good idea, and something you'd be comfortable with your daughter doing', then no.

If you mean 'Do you want to take away a woman's bodily autonomy in a legal sense', then also no.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I just want to say that, to most women including myself, abortion does intuitively feel wrong. I know I couldn't do it. Most women who go for abortions wrangle over it for weeks. This is not in any sense a typical thing (I'm not sure what you mean by 'typical abortion?) Most women don't go into this lightly and often take it up with her spouse/boyfriend (understandably), family, and friends beforehand.

What are we supposed to take from this intuitive feeling?

I ask this as someone for whom blood donation feels intuitively wrong.

Intellectually, I can understand why it's important, but I definitely have to overcome some pretty heavy "gut feeling" aversion to do it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What are we supposed to take from this intuitive feeling?

I ask this as someone for whom blood donation feels intuitively wrong.

Intellectually, I can understand why it's important, but I definitely have to overcome some pretty heavy "gut feeling" aversion to do it.

I never understood the 'intuitively wrong' thing as a way of judging morality. Seems completely wrong to me, in an intuitive sense. Which apparently makes it immoral as well as wrong.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If you mean 'Do you want to take away a woman's bodily autonomy in a legal sense', then also no.

I am in favor of abortion for right reasons, as also I am a pro-lifer (I think Indian law takes care of it from both angles). It is the responsibility of the man and woman involved to take precautions that there be no need for abortion.