Pro-life is not just opposing abortion, Vatican says after U.S. ruling

[SomeRandom]

I noticed it too.

On the other hand, you'd think that Bleeding Heart Liberals would oppose abortion (especially late term).

Their views are not consistent.

Why?
I thought American liberals were supposed to be vastly pro choice?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree. I think it's quite pro life to desire to prevent murder or violence of any kind directed towards the lives of yourself or especially otherwise defenseless people around you who are doing no wrong.

Keeping deadly weapons for the purposes of blowing a hole in people who threaten you is hardly in keeping with "a desire to prevent [...] violence of any kind."

For that very reason we honor people who put their lives on the line to defend other people. Such as soldiers and law enforcement. This is not wrong. This is what normal people naturally do.

They show lack of faith as well. Someone who trusts that their Heavenly Father will meet their needs has no reason to use violence, even in self-defense or for defense of others.

Someone who takes up arms is someone who sees a need to be met but doesn't trust God to meet it.

In nature mothers and in some species even fathers will defend their young or their group. So self defense is as natural and normal as it gets. It's not bad in any way. Yet we see it under attack with gun control laws and even criminalizing the very act of self defense in many countries.This is extremely wrong.

Gun control isn't wrong; it's defense of liberty. The guns you see as about "the act of self defense" also represent threats to the life and freedom of the people around them.

Edit - and BTW: why do you think gun control would interfere with the sort of self-defense we see among animals in nature? Do you think squirrels and geese are packing heat or something?

Because we're not suicidal or idiots. God made us so why would he want to see us destroyed?

See... there's that lack of faith again: if you really thought that you were an immortal soul, why would you see death as "destruction"?

It's good to go to heaven but scripture indicates that to God every death of his saints is precious. So he doesn't like to see anyone die; not even the wicked.

Presumably, any God worth his salt would be more than capable of making the things he wishes for happen, so why would this be a reason for you to get a gun?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I noticed it too.

On the other hand, you'd think that Bleeding Heart Liberals would oppose abortion (especially late term).

Their views are not consistent.

Sounds like you don't understand the pro-choice position.

 

[pearl]

June 25 (Reuters) - Anti-abortion activists should be concerned with other issues that can threaten life, such as easy access to guns, poverty and rising maternity mortality rates, the Vatican's editorial director said on Saturday.

While this is true of the Church's position concerning pro life as opposed to anti-abortion alone, it has not always been as vocal in its social justice teachings. Both John Paul II and Benedict XVI stressed anti-abortion, if life of the innocent was not protected what good are the other issues. With Francis we return to the 'seamless garment' of Cardinal Bernardin, and the
'Consistent Ethic of Life'.
The Seamless Garment: What It Is and Isn’t| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

 

[pearl]

Sounds like you don't understand the pro-choice position.

I don't think many do. Legally, pro-choice is pro right to abortion, while not believing personally in abortion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

While this is true of the Church's position concerning pro life as opposed to anti-abortion alone, it has not always been as vocal in its social justice teachings. Both John Paul II and Benedict XVI stressed anti-abortion, if life of the innocent was not protected what good are the other issues. With Francis we return to the 'seamless garment' of Cardinal Bernardin, and the
'Consistent Ethic of Life'.
The Seamless Garment: What It Is and Isn’t| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

The Catholic Church is not pro-life.

I've shared this story before, but here goes:

My ex-wife and I tried unsuccessfully to have kids. She would get pregnant, but then have a miscarriage 1 or 2 months in.

We went to a fertility specialist whose clinic was under the umbrella of a Catholic hospital. Because of this, all medical care had to be in line with Catholic teaching. Do you know what course of action the doctor suggested?

Get pregnant again, monitor the pregnancy, try to find the problem (which might take a few tries), and then treat it. Once that was done, we'd confirm that everything was okay by getting pregnant again, and then there would be more monitoring, and if another miscarriage happened, we'd repeat the process.

IOW, this approach - AFAICT fully in line with Catholic teaching - treated embryos and fetuses as disposable. Certainly not "pro-life" if we were to accept the Catholic Church's assertion that fetus or embryo is some of the "life" that they're supposed to be "pro-."

This is just one example. There are countless other examples - including many that deal with actual people - that show the Catholic Church is not "pro-life" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[pearl]

IOW, this approach - AFAICT fully in line with Catholic teaching - treated embryos and fetuses as disposable. Certainly not "pro-life" if we were to accept the Catholic Church's assertion that fetus or embryo is some of the "life" that they're supposed to be "pro-."

Don't understand the process of which you stated, not familiar with AFAICT.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Don't understand the process of which you stated, not familiar with AFAICT.

"AFAICT" : "as far as I can tell"

An analogy for the process suggested by the medical staff of a Catholic hospital to be in accordance with Catholic doctrine:

Imagine a house. Kids keep dying in there. They go in alive but don't come out.

Someone comes up with an idea to figure out the problem: send another kid in, knowing that they'll likely die too, but watch really closely in order to figure out what kills them.

If that's inconclusive, send in another kid, and another, and another, until their deaths give you a better idea of what's going on.

Once you can get a kid to survive being in the foyer, send them deeper into the house and see if they still survive. If they die, take notes, and then send in another kid.

If we were to believe that fetuses are people, this would be the equivalent to Catholic Church endorsed approach to my ex's infertility.

Pro-life my ***.

 

[metis]

Let the church put its money where it will help.

It does as it's the largest non-governmental charity worldwide.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It does as it's the largest non-governmental charity worldwide.

Thanks. That's probably true. But it's job would be a lot easier if there were a lot less unwanted babies living in poverty.

 

[metis]

But it's job would be a lot easier if there were a lot less unwanted babies living in poverty.

I agree.

 

[metis]

The Democrats uses the lopsided media hype, as a tool to scare people into taking away all gun rights even for honest people. They never address the illegal gun violence in Democrat run cities, due to black market guns. This is where you can make a lot of progress, faster. However, they seem to support a situation where there are no legal guns, but only black market guns.

That is simply made-up tripe, so it would be nice if you got of your partisan dung-heap.

 

[metis]

The problem is the vast majority of deaths, due to guns in the USA, are from illegal guns in inner cites.

The stats don't support that claim, so maybe google it as I just did.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It does as it's the largest non-governmental charity worldwide.

"Non-governmental"? Glad to find someone else who considers the statehood of the Holy See/Vatican City to be nonsense.

You need a big ol' asterisk on "charity," though.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I agree.

So, is the answer to force women to have unwanted babies because they cannot end the pregnancy? Yes, I know it would be better not to get pregnant but the church also says they cannot use pills or other devices to avoid pregnancy. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Pro-life is not just opposing abortion, Vatican says after U.S. ruling | Reuters

June 25 (Reuters) - Anti-abortion activists should be concerned with other issues that can threaten life, such as easy access to guns, poverty and rising maternity mortality rates, the Vatican's editorial director said on Saturday.

In a media editorial on the United States Supreme Court's ruling to end the constitutional right to abortion, Andrea Tornielli said those who oppose abortion could not pick and choose pro-life issues.

"Being for life, always, for example, means being concerned if the mortality rates of women due to motherhood increase," he wrote.

He cited statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention showing a rise in maternity mortality rates overall and that the rate was nearly three times higher for black women.

"Being for life, always, means asking how to help women welcome new life," he wrote, citing an unsourced statistic that 75% of women who have abortions live in poverty or are low-wage earners.

He also cited statistics from the Harvard Review of Psychiatry showing that the United States has much lower rates of paid parental leave compared with other rich nations.

"Being for life, always, also means defending it against the threat of firearms, which unfortunately have become a leading cause of death of children and adolescents in the U.S." he wrote.​

What BS.

 

[pearl]

"AFAICT" : "as far as I can tell"

What exactly what did you expect from this doctor that would reflect a negative church doctrine?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What exactly what did you expect from this doctor that would reflect a negative church doctrine?

I'm confused by your question, but if we were to take it as given that fetuses and embryos should be protected, the "pro-life" position would have been to advise us to stop creating fetuses when the odds of a fetus surviving were poor.

 

[pearl]

I'm confused by your question, but if we were to take it as given that fetuses and embryos should be protected, the "pro-life" position would have been to advise us to stop creating fetuses when the odds of a fetus surviving were poor.

Thanks, as I now think I understand where you are coming from. In this case the only viable option may have been the use of a surrogate, which of course never would have been suggested buy a Catholic hospital.
What your ex-wife was going through was a natural abortion.

 

[pearl]

I'm confused by your question, but if we were to take it as given that fetuses and embryos should be protected, the "pro-life" position would have been to advise us to stop creating fetuses when the odds of a fetus surviving were poor.

In 2011, the ACLU released a report, "The Growth of Catholic Hospitals and the Threat to Reproductive Health Care," highlighting case studies of women being denied appropriate miscarriage care, or not being informed of their risks. In 2016, the Guardian published the findings of former Muskegon County, Michigan, health official Faith Groesbeck, who accused Mercy Health Partners of "forcing five women between August 2009 and December 2010 to undergo dangerous miscarriages by giving them no other option…. In each incident, [Mercy Health Partners] withheld medically indicated treatment and information from pregnant women experiencing emergency situations."
The Catholic church is dictating reproductive health care — even in blue states (msn.com)