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Featured Pro-choice vs Abortion

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Willamena, May 17, 2019.

  1. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    PRO:
    I am pro-choice, not because I encourage women to have abortions, but because I reserve the right to not have abortions.

    Legislation takes the right away.
     
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  2. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    I've never had an abortion and, barring a miracle, don't expect to want or need one in the few years I have left in this world. Moreover, I haven't ever encouraged a woman to get one and can't imagine that I ever will. The way I see it, what any woman decides to do about what is happening inside her body is between her, her God (if she believes in one), and her Doctor.

    If I ever feel moved to discourage a pregnant woman from undergoing an abortion, I'd only do so if I could pay for all of her needs during pregnancy and adopt the baby when born or see that it is lawfully adopted by fit adults.
     
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  3. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    I'm pro-life, because I believe in the sanctity if human life. I'm pro-choice, because I respect other people's freedoms.
     
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  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I am pro-choice...but I hope women stop having abortions with frequency...because they don't know how lucky they are having the chance of becoming a mother...
    While women like me who have a strong desire of motherhood don't have this privilege.
     
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  5. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Thank you for saying that.
     
  6. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    ....and who gets to decide who is 'fit?'

    Oh, never mind. Babies aren't kittens or puppies, to be drowned or euthanized because they are not 'wanted,' or are not 'adoptable.' In my view, when the sex is consensual and in full knowledge that sex is how babies are made, a woman's choices need to be made BEFORE she gets pregnant. After that, it's not all about her anymore. There is another human being to consider. Yeah, yeah...men don't get pregnant. It's not 'fair.' or something. But that's how it is. Women are the ones who get pregnant. Pregnancy is about making human beings.

    y'know, if one decides to advertise a room to rent in the newspaper, and goes to all the trouble of getting a renter....and then decides that having a renter in one's home is too much trouble, one is not allowed to shoot said renter and bury him in the back garden.

    In fact, suppose that one advertises in the paper, and then puts all sorts of traps and lethal barriers in the way to keep inquirers away from the house. Suppose that somebody gets through all those traps and barriers, and voila,' takes up occupancy in that spare room. It's STILL considered illegal to shoot him.

    Indeed, if the weather outside is arctic cold winter, or in the middle of a hurricane, one is not allowed to kick the renter out if doing so will guarantee his death. The reluctant landlord must wait until it is possible for the renter to leave without instantly dying.

    Couples who have consensual sex ARE inviting that new human into existence, in the full knowledge that one just might answer the 'invitation.' Modern birth control methods are very good, and when multiple forms are used...properly...then the odds are exceptional that no pregnancy will result. It might, anyway, though...and it wouldn't have had the 'invitation' not been given. it is not the fault of this new human that his parents invited him/her. Indeed, this new human is the only real innocent in the whole deal.

    But for some reason, it is that innocent who has to pay the death penalty price for his/her parent's irresponsibility, in many cases, and at the very least, unwillingness to accept the consequences of their own choices.

    I'm compelled to insert a disclaimer here, because someone WILL come back with the 'what about rape, incest and threat to the mother's life?" thing. You haven't done this, Terry...it's a general disclaimer, and why I use 'consensual' so consistently here. My opinion is mine...and only applies to men and women who enter into consensual sex in the full knowledge that sex makes babies, and that there is a possibility, no matter how slight, that a pregnancy will result. It does not apply to women who are raped, incest victims, women who are not legally responsible for their actions (and sex with them IS 'rape") or in cases where the mother's life is in danger, or when the fetus is so badly damaged that s/he cannot live outside the womb even if carried to full term.

    Of course, the vast majority of abortions are sought by women who did have consensual sex.
     
  7. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    This whole analogy falls flat when you don't believe consent to have sex is consent to forced childbirth should you become pregnant. Consent is neither transferable nor transient, consent to kissing is not consent to sex no matter how often one leads to another. Consent to blood testing is not consent to blood donation no matter how similar the processes of are.

    In any case, it also doesn't take into consideration that actual medical and sexual consent is not like renter agreements. You can revoke medical consent at *any time.* Up to and including when it will result in death of someone else. Because rights of body autonomy superced any rights to bodily use every time.
     
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  8. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    Usually, the state.

    It never ceases to be about her, despite there being another life to consider. Birth is not just one life at stake.
     
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  9. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    Incidentally I would criminalize drowning unwanted puppies and kittens over first and second trimester abortion as I'm not a human exceptionalist and the puppies and kittens will markedly suffer more for the experience.

    Heck I would push for compulsive vegetarianism before compulsive birth as the inclusion of meat is *mostly* self indulgent and causes unnecessary suffering. But I wouldn't both because there's sometimes socioeconomic reasons or health reasons why carnivory happens and a rigid compulsory system would punish those cases because they wouldn't be judged effectively. Thus I believe it's a personal choice.
     
    #9 ADigitalArtist, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  10. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I think pro choice would be the preferred way to go as opposed to infanticide.

    Personally I think the line should be drawn at the point when the fetus develops the capacity to feel pain. Past that the mother imo would no longer 'own' the child as being an integral part of her body.

    It seems to be set at the third trimester or 27 weeks into pregnancy when the fetus is thought to be capable of experiencing pain.

    Do Fetuses Feel Pain? What the Science Says
     
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  11. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Then what's the rub, the fetus goes to heaven then if you claim it is innocent.
     
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  12. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    No. It's about two.

    but it IS about two human beings, not just one.

    Not JUST the mother's.
     
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  13. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    I believe that anybody below the 'age of accountability' (which my faith system puts at about 8) goes to heaven.

    Which means, according to your logic, that it is completely acceptable to go shoot all the kids at a day care center. They are all going to heaven, right?

    Except of course that the guy who does that is probably going to get shot himself, if he isn't convicted of mass murder. We do consider people who murder children to be particularly nasty.

    But, again....according to your logic, it should be perfectly OK, right? The victims are all going to heaven.

    Your logic is as lousy as the person who claims that since foeti have to face so many OTHER dangers, and since a large percentage of pregnancies end in natural miscarriages, then 'what's the rub?" Abortion is just one more danger, right?

    No matter what your view is on abortion, that logic is insane.
     
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  14. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I've heard that the women usually won't do that unless a serious health issue arises for her, in which case I think the choice would still belong to the women. But if everything is going well, I think by the point it starts looking quite human it would be unsettling for her to get rid of it, though I don't know if I'd give someone years in prison for that. My guess is that it the experience would probably traumatize the women and that's punishment enough
     
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  15. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    Depending on your definition of "human being", sure.
     
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  16. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    no according to your logic. If you can't get that straight, you're probably not fit for a debate forum. It's your religion, not mine bud. What the hell are you making some sick analogy like that for.
     
    #16 ideogenous_mover, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  17. JJ50

    JJ50 Active Member

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    A woman should have an abortion if she does not wish to give birth to a child, or if she discovers the child has a serious health issue with which she cannot cope.
     
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  18. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Begging the question.

    Irrelevant...at the very least, a strawman.

    Non sequitur.

    The act of consensual sex is not a medical procedure with modern rules. No matter how many reasons one has for engaging in sex, the fact is....sex is all about procreation. It's FUN, because those who enjoy it are more likely to engage in it...and thus more likely to reproduce. Everything that human sex involves is directly involved in the procreation of the species. Every. Single. Thing, from the fun to the relationship, to keeping the couple 'together,' to..??? I personally can't think of anything about sex that is not first and foremost aimed at the production and raising of children, even...and perhaps not so accidentally, those acts of sex which do not themselves result in pregnancy, but are about the adults engaging in them.

    ...and we are not talking about changing one's mind regarding a kidney transplant. We are talking about deliberately engaging in the one act that is required for the creation of a new human being. As soon as that happens, that new human life MUST be considered, in the same way that any other human life should be considered; if it's not legal to kill your neighbor 'just because,' then it shouldn't be legal to kill this new human being that you deliberately invited into being.

    As there are instances in which it is not only legal, but desirable, to kill your neighbor (as when s/he tries to kill you first, for instance) then there are cases in which abortion is also a tragic requirement.

    I believe that reading that 'disclaimer' would have been useful.
     
    #18 dianaiad, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  19. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me?

    I'm not the one who brought up the 'they are going to heaven so it should be OK to kill them" argument. You did.

    I simply showed you how that particular argument fails.

    ....and since it IS 'my religion' (at least, the 'innocents go to heaven' bit) I think I know a bit more about it than you might.
     
    #19 dianaiad, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  20. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    it's human, and it's a being. There is no argument from anybody about either thing.

    Do not confuse the cultural assignation of 'personhood' with "human being."
     
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