Principles of Unity/Disunity

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus Christ taught that a key aim of Satan is to divide and conquer.

Few are talking about the recent Trump news as to how Russia DID try to interfere with our elections. Why? Because they preferred Trump to Hillary?

Not according to the report. Rather, Russia interfered with our election in the hope of setting Americans against one another. Why would they want to do that? -- Divide and conquer!

United we stand.

 

[pearl]

Why would they want to do that?

To prove to the world that democracy does not work.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jesus Christ taught that a key aim of Satan is to divide and conquer.

Few are talking about the recent Trump news as to how Russia DID try to interfere with our elections. Why? Because they preferred Trump to Hillary?

Not according to the report. Rather, Russia interfered with our election in the hope of setting Americans against one another. Why would they want to do that? -- Divide and conquer!

United we stand.

Forgiveness is the major factor in unity. You have to establish forgiveness as a regular principle. Some societies require all of the forgiveness to be the burden of the lower classes. The more stable and modern ones make it everybody's business. In the USA it is each citizen's duty or was.

That duty has diminished as people have begun to take politics personally, and this has acted as a toxin in our union. The public used to admire Protestant Christianity. Christianity was a model that encouraged everyone to be forgiving, to hug a neighbor and to speak kindly to strangers.

That model has lost a lot of its reputation. Now people wonder what difference does it make if they swear on a Bible or not. Now forgiveness (our broken sword) has to be re-forged once again, but who can perform the reforging ?

 

[74x12]

Jesus Christ taught that a key aim of Satan is to divide and conquer.

Few are talking about the recent Trump news as to how Russia DID try to interfere with our elections. Why? Because they preferred Trump to Hillary?

Not according to the report. Rather, Russia interfered with our election in the hope of setting Americans against one another. Why would they want to do that? -- Divide and conquer!

United we stand.

Russia is pretty openly hostile; if people haven't noticed they'll take any opportunity. They're probably angry over the Ukraine thing and Syria etc. They actually have a lot of legitimate reasons to be mad at the USA.

The US government has been out of control for a long time and doing evil things in secret or doing things with false justification/illegitimate reasons. Russia is not really any better; but they do have reasons to hate the USA.

Before the election there was a lot of reason to believe that Russia and the USA were preparing for world war 3. If Hillary had been elected then it would have basically been bad news for anyone who doesn't want nuclear war. If you don't believe me then look back at debates where Hillary openly said hostile things about Russia. That's not good. Luckily for all of us --in spite of what anyone thinks of Trump-- she was not elected. But, just because Hillary wasn't elected doesn't mean that Russia suddenly likes us. They still despise us and both sides are still preparing for war; which is becoming increasingly obvious.

 

[Windwalker]

Jesus Christ taught that a key aim of Satan is to divide and conquer.

Few are talking about the recent Trump news as to how Russia DID try to interfere with our elections. Why? Because they preferred Trump to Hillary?

Not according to the report. Rather, Russia interfered with our election in the hope of setting Americans against one another. Why would they want to do that? -- Divide and conquer!

United we stand.

When we divide the world up into "saved" and "unsaved," sheep and goats, sinners and saints, good and bad, right and wrong, those from good countries and those from ****hole countries, it doesn't take much to exploit that divisiveness, and fan the fires of hatred. Trump certainly is doing his part to fan those flames, and evangelical Christians certainly see nothing wrong with that, as if it aligns somehow with the teachings of Jesus. So, I'm not sure what can be done, other than join a religion that teaches Love instead, or leave those that don't? Any suggestions on your part that gets rid of divisions like this?

 

[BSM1]

Jesus Christ taught that a key aim of Satan is to divide and conquer.

Few are talking about the recent Trump news as to how Russia DID try to interfere with our elections. Why? Because they preferred Trump to Hillary?

Not according to the report. Rather, Russia interfered with our election in the hope of setting Americans against one another. Why would they want to do that? -- Divide and conquer!

United we stand.

Could you cite a verse or two where Jesus taught anything about Satan?

 

[danieldemol]

Jesus Christ taught that a key aim of Satan is to divide and conquer...
...
United we stand.

You mean like the way some christians try to keep the nations divided against each other?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Forgiveness is the major factor in unity. You have to establish forgiveness as a regular principle. Some societies require all of the forgiveness to be the burden of the lower classes. The more stable and modern ones make it everybody's business. In the USA it is each citizen's duty or was.

That duty has diminished as people have begun to take politics personally, and this has acted as a toxin in our union. The public used to admire Protestant Christianity. Christianity was a model that encouraged everyone to be forgiving, to hug a neighbor and to speak kindly to strangers.

That model has lost a lot of its reputation. Now people wonder what difference does it make if they swear on a Bible or not. Now forgiveness (our broken sword) has to be re-forged once again, but who can perform the reforging ?

The personally reforged!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Russia is pretty openly hostile; if people haven't noticed they'll take any opportunity. They're probably angry over the Ukraine thing and Syria etc. They actually have a lot of legitimate reasons to be mad at the USA.

The US government has been out of control for a long time and doing evil things in secret or doing things with false justification/illegitimate reasons. Russia is not really any better; but they do have reasons to hate the USA.

Before the election there was a lot of reason to believe that Russia and the USA were preparing for world war 3. If Hillary had been elected then it would have basically been bad news for anyone who doesn't want nuclear war. If you don't believe me then look back at debates where Hillary openly said hostile things about Russia. That's not good. Luckily for all of us --in spite of what anyone thinks of Trump-- she was not elected. But, just because Hillary wasn't elected doesn't mean that Russia suddenly likes us. They still despise us and both sides are still preparing for war; which is becoming increasingly obvious.

I'd appreciate Hillary's sayings about Russia more if she and her husband hadn't given them our state secrets. We should unify as a nation for truth and rightness!

 

[BilliardsBall]

When we divide the world up into "saved" and "unsaved," sheep and goats, sinners and saints, good and bad, right and wrong, those from good countries and those from ****hole countries, it doesn't take much to exploit that divisiveness, and fan the fires of hatred. Trump certainly is doing his part to fan those flames, and evangelical Christians certainly see nothing wrong with that, as if it aligns somehow with the teachings of Jesus. So, I'm not sure what can be done, other than join a religion that teaches Love instead, or leave those that don't? Any suggestions on your part that gets rid of divisions like this?

No Christians wish to divide saved FROM the unsaved until Jesus does so, on His terms.

If the world WAS saved, there would be no crime/war/nuclear proliferation, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Could you cite a verse or two where Jesus taught anything about Satan?

Luke 10:18 comes to mind, but as someone who believe Jesus inspired the whole Bible, we have many verses on Satan, throughout.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You mean like the way some christians try to keep the nations divided against each other?

Huh? Born again Christians are seeking to reach others for Christ, to unify. We stand nothing to gain by dividing people, we work in harmony, love and forgiveness with others.

 

[Windwalker]

No Christians wish to divide saved FROM the unsaved until Jesus does so, on His terms.

Yet you identify those who need "saving", don't you? Do you assume everyone is saved then? If so, which I think is a good idea, then you really don't need to tell people about how to get saved, right?

If the world WAS saved, there would be no crime/war/nuclear proliferation, etc.

Considering how many crimes and war occur with religious people all the time, justifying it with the name of God, I'd say the word "saved" doesn't have much meaning then. Would you agree? Perhaps we should say that converting to a religion is not them getting "saved"? I'd agree with that. It's the fruits that matter.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yet you identify those who need "saving", don't you? Do you assume everyone is saved then? If so, which I think is a good idea, then you really don't need to tell people about how to get saved, right?


Considering how many crimes and war occur with religious people all the time, justifying it with the name of God, I'd say the word "saved" doesn't have much meaning then. Would you agree? Perhaps we should say that converting to a religion is not them getting "saved"? I'd agree with that. It's the fruits that matter.

I agree, fruit matters! Are you familiar with Jesus's saying about fruits and roots (they are right after that "judgment" stuff in Matthew 7.)

 

[Windwalker]

I agree, fruit matters! Are you familiar with Jesus's saying about fruits and roots (they are right after that "judgment" stuff in Matthew 7.)

Certainly I'm familiar with it. What's interesting about that passage is how it begins with the statement that with what judgment we judge, we will be judged. So, if you think about that statement a little deeper, you can see that if we make divisions between others as good vs bad, right vs wrong, saint vs sinner, etc., that is how we will be judged, or that we are judging ourselves with that same judgment we judge others.

If, however, on the other hand, we do not divide like that, and see each other with unconditional, non-judging Love, that is how we will be judged! In other words, we judge others, as God judges us, without divisions of good and bad, right and wrong, etc. Love only sees the soul of another, not whether they met some standard imposed upon them by others, which is what we do when we judge our neighbors.

If God's nature is to truly divide, the way we humans like to do, then for God to love us unconditionally, is a contradiction to his own nature. "Love as I say, not as I do." Since if we don't judge our neighbor, we are not judged by God, then it would seem we should not divide. To see others with the eyes of God, with unconditional Love, we have to then not divide. Right? If you "judge not", you are not judged either, which is to be within God.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Certainly I'm familiar with it. What's interesting about that passage is how it begins with the statement that with what judgment we judge, we will be judged. So, if you think about that statement a little deeper, you can see that if we make divisions between others as good vs bad, right vs wrong, saint vs sinner, etc., that is how we will be judged, or that we are judging ourselves with that same judgment we judge others.

If, however, on the other hand, we do not divide like that, and see each other with unconditional, non-judging Love, that is how we will be judged! In other words, we judge others, as God judges us, without divisions of good and bad, right and wrong, etc. Love only sees the soul of another, not whether they met some standard imposed upon them by others, which is what we do when we judge our neighbors.

If God's nature is to truly divide, the way we humans like to do, then for God to love us unconditionally, is a contradiction to his own nature. "Love as I say, not as I do." Since if we don't judge our neighbor, we are not judged by God, then it would seem we should not divide. To see others with the eyes of God, with unconditional Love, we have to then not divide. Right? If you "judge not", you are not judged either, which is to be within God.

I like these sentiments, but you must balance with John 7:24. Thanks.

 

[Windwalker]

I like these sentiments, but you must balance with John 7:24. Thanks.

Sure yes. What is righteous judgement? It's the judgment God judges with, which is unconditional love. When we judge like that, we do not condemn and separate others for their shortcomings. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".

That judgement, is love and forgiveness, not condemnation. When we condemn others, we condemn ourselves three fold. When we forgive others, we experience love in ourselves three fold, "pressed down shaken together, and overflowing". "With what judgement you judge, it will be returned to you."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sure yes. What is righteous judgement? It's the judgment God judges with, which is unconditional love. When we judge like that, we do not condemn and separate others for their shortcomings. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".

That judgement, is love and forgiveness, not condemnation. When we condemn others, we condemn ourselves three fold. When we forgive others, we experience love in ourselves three fold, "pressed down shaken together, and overflowing". "With what judgement you judge, it will be returned to you."

Per your post (see above):

"That judgement, is love and forgiveness, not condemnation."

But logically speaking:

Love = love
Forgiveness = forgiveness
Judgment = judgment

And to forgive someone of wrong fully, per Jesus Christ, I have to love them, but also first judge they have done something needing forgiveness.

I hear you loud and clear, that we are to judge, but be careful doing so!

Thanks!

 

[metis]

I think it's now very clear that Putin wanted Trump in and Hillary not in, so divide & conquer is only part of the story.

And we see how that's played out in Putin's favor as Trump is highly reluctant to be critical of Putin, plus he removed sanctions against Russia after it was clear that they had indeed interfered.

Plus, it should be made clear that the minute that the Trump camp was contacted by Russian operatives that they should have reported it immediately to the FBI. This is what legally moral and truly patriotic people would do-- but they didn't.

We have repeatedly seen through Trump's words and actions that he has very little respect for the "rule of law", and also that he lies and lies and lies some more. So, are we to blindly "unite" behind someone who says and acts so immorally as if his words and actions really don't count? Depending on the situation, I might, but certainly not on everything that he proposes and does.

 

[Windwalker]

Per your post (see above):

"That judgement, is love and forgiveness, not condemnation."

But logically speaking:

Love = love
Forgiveness = forgiveness
Judgment = judgment

No. These are all extensions and expressions of the same thing: Love. They are not separate and isolated from each other, but flow from the same Source. Forgiveness comes through Compassion, which is an expression of Love. The judgment of God, is through the eyes of Compassion through Love, which expresses itself as absolute Forgiveness.

"There is no condemnation to those in Christ". Being "in Christ" is state of being. It's not a legal position. It's being embraced by Love, even when we in our imaginations see ourselves as separate from God. From the perspective of God, nothing is outside that Compassion. It's what we do to ourselves that is separation. Not what God does to us.

And to forgive someone of wrong fully, per Jesus Christ, I have to love them, but also first judge they have done something needing forgiveness.

God doesn't see sin. You see sin. You are not seeing as God sees when you do that.

I hear you loud and clear, that we are to judge, but be careful doing so!

Thanks!

When you judge as God judges, there is no condemnation. There is no careful line to walk. There is no line.