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Featured Pretribulation rapture

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by filthyrottendirty, Sep 8, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I guess the idea of end days comes from the Bible but I don't know what verses it is found in. I think it has the same meaning as end times or latter days or last days.

    As I always say, anyone can make the Bible say whatever they want it to mean by picking certain verses and interpreting them to suit their views, and that is why Christians believe all kinds of different things about what will happen.
     
  2. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    If a human living as a human talks about effects caused to their natural form...natural by conditions known to the human were changed.

    What status changes as natural support?

    Science an artificial practice of forced mass conversion when natural laws holds binds keeps mass in form.

    Pretty basic advice.

    Form O the planet as science is stated as stories about how mass was formed in space. The beginning subject human I realise first mass exists.

    As I theory falsely about when it never existed. Then preach aren't I correct as a scientist thinker.

    Rationally no you are not correct as you are just a human and not the masses journey.

    Human science as a human has to theory mass not existing to say knowledge how to cause it's removal.

    Which is basic non intelligence.

    As mass in natural terms does exist.

    Spirituality human is a natural human with conscious concepts versed its ego non Intelligent self destructive nature.

    That defied all natural laws by ignoring that a planet as mass is created and does factually exist. By all natural laws cosmic.

    The theme biblical is about man as men.

    The theme says an everyday man no different from anyone else is our own life's destroyer.

    Which was a human warning for humans as a human about humans.

    The story bible says man was told by God for science meaning. Which by planetary presence is how to apply conversion from a point of nothing.

    From a moment of non form gases alight enact the conversion to mass.

    Historic conversion of earth God by the sun when the atmosphere was given light no human existed.

    So when science by human want as a human choice to want to theory for science by human intent......ignored advice a human wanted change.....we were living.

    A totally different outcome occurred.

    Night time evening was set alight the non burning mass and the day light virtually died.

    You would say night turned into day....a reversal of light and day by voiding vacuum changed into night after six days of attack.

    What shifting time by light meant. And going back in time as a ludicrous statement.
     
  3. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    False. The Rapture ain't a thing.
     
  4. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    Believing that the World will end is an aspect of Christian faith. Believing it will happen in our lifetime is just hubris. People have been predicting the end of the world for thousands of years, and they've all been wrong. The "but just look at the world around us!" argument doesn't sway me much, either. Compare today with the state of the world in 1943 and tell me it's worse. Or during the Black Death, or during the 30 Years War, or during the Boxer Rebellion, or during the Conquest of the Americas... plenty of periods of history that were significantly worse than today.

    No man knoweth the day nor the hour. So rather than crossing our fingers and hoping Jesus comes real soon to sort everything wrong with our lives, smite our enemies and prove everyone else wrong, maybe Christians should be focused on the here and now, trying to make the world better for our children and fellow man just on the off chance that the Apocalypse ISN'T imminent, and we're all stuck here for the foreseeable, yaknow?
     
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  5. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    This would be one of the places where it tells us of when the Messiah will return and to me at least it looks like it is after the tribulation.

    Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
    30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    If your ideas are correct the tribulation should have happened before those events where the sun was darkened and there was a big meteor shower etc.
    Maybe this is the start of the Baha'u'llah era instead of the end of a previous one,,,,,,,,,,,which ever one you say that was. I don't really know which is the previous era because the Bab and Muhammad came in between Jesus and Baha'u'llah.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    According to Baha’i beliefs, there have been various Universal Cycles of religion since mankind was created. Within each Cycle there were many different Prophets and religions. The Universal Cycles that preceded Adam are too remote in history to know anything about. The Cycle of religion that began with Adam and culminated with Muhammad is called the Adamic Cycle, or the Prophetic Cycle, named as such because it was the Age of Prophecy.

    Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last prophet in the Adamic Cycle and thus He sealed off the Adamic Cycle. In 1844 the Bab ushered in a new Cycle of religion called the Age of Fulfillment because all the prophecies will be fulfilled during this cycle.

    The present Universal Cycle of religion includes the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and the Baha’i Cycle (Cycle of Fulfillment). The Baha’i Cycle will last no less than 500,000 years and all the Messengers of God (Manifestations of God) that appear during the cycle will be under the shadow of Baha’u’llah.

    So do you think that Matt 24:29 constitutes the tribulation? I don't see it that way. I believe those were the signs that were to be seen before Christ returns.

    It does not matter how many years before Christ returned these things would happen because the Bible does not stipulate any amount of time. It only stipulates the order in which they would happen. They happened in the exact order that they were prophesied to happen, and shortly after that Baha'u'llah appeared.

    Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

    Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

    All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

    Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…


    Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    The signs of Revelation that would appear in succession, leading up to the day of the return of Christ were, in order:

    1. The great earthquake
    2. The darkening of the sun and the moon.
    3. The falling of the stars from the heavens.

    As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

    1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
    2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
    3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

    It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

    Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
     
  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That was interesting, thanks.

    I see the things spoken of before Matt 24:29 as the tribulation, then as verse 29 says, "after the distress of those days the signs in verse 29 would come and then the end and the coming of the Son of Man. So the tribulation would have had to have been before those signs that you speak of.

    Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

    Because Peter said this before speaking the prophecy of Joel he was indicating that the pouring out of the Spirit on all flesh, as Joel mentioned, was being fulfilled then at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was being poured out. This was then the start of the last days, as Joel indicated.
    In between the start and when Jesus comes the gospel is to be preached to the whole world as testimony and I believe that preaching will intensify going through and towards the end of the tribulation.
    Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    The things you mention below did happen before Baha'u'llah came.
    1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
    2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
    3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
    These however have happened at various times in history in various places but what Matt 24:29 is not about relatively small events like that, imo it is things that will effect the whole earth.

    Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

    [/QUOTE]

    Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
    15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

    This indicates much bigger events than what you cite.
    Then the wrath of the wrath of God and the Lamb comes when the Messiah returns, which He will after those signs and everyone will know about it, as the scripture above tells us, and everyone is scared and hide because of those signs. Remember that they will know what the signs mean because the gospel has been preached to everyone as a witness to the whole world.
     
  8. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I imagine it takes place more often but ratings love drama.
     
  9. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    A king who killed his people is king of nothing.
     
  10. LactoseIntolerant

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    From your response and the religion moniker, I assume that the king is Jesus and the people is referring to humanity in general. Consider these premises viewed from the perspective of the faithful.

    1) Jesus is the Absolute Sovereign, King.
    2) Jesus is the Christ.
    3) An anti-Christ is against Christ, either proactively or passively.

    Thus, those who are not faithful (anti-Christ) are anti-king. What is an anti-king in a kingdom? It is a traitor. What happens to traitors? Death.

    What is the unbeliever's expectation of a Christ the King when humankind has had over 2000 years to chose a side? The people of Jesus are the obedient, not the "do as thou wilt" crowd. Jesus is to be King of Christians, not of anti-Christs.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, I agree, but I cannot say I know what it refers to.
    No, I do not believe they were drunk. I think that verse 15 "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day" means they were “as drunk” since they were filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why verse 13 says "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine." The new wine was the Holy Spirit. :)
    I don’t interpret Acts 2 that way.

    I believe that Acts 2:1-15 refer to the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the disciples.

    Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)

    And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

    7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

    8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

    9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

    10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

    11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

    12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

    13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

    15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.


    ````````````````````````````````````````````````````
    I believe that Acts 2:16-21 refers to the Holy Spirit that was sent in the last days.

    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


    Please note that this section of Acts 2 culminates with is verse: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    I think that means that anyone who recognizes Baha’u’llah and calls upon Him will be saved. Of course, they would also have to call upon Jesus to be saved, as that is a given in the Baha'i Faith, that Jesus was Savior since He died for the sins and inequities of humanity.
    I am not going to say I know what Revelation 6:12-17 is referring to, but I believe it is figurative, not literal. “and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place” is obviously figurative.

    I suppose you have some verses that you have interpreted to mean that everyone will recognize Jesus when He returns to earth, but I see that as a logical impossibility. You can say that anything is possible with God, but the problem with that humans are all different in how they think and humans have free will, so not everyone would recognize Jesus if He returned, not anymore than everyone recognized Jesus at His first coming. A spectacular appearance in the sky would not make any difference because there would be no way for people to know it was Jesus and not an alien or something else.

    If Jesus returned to this world, how would you know it was Jesus?

    I do believe that everyone will know that Baha’u’llah came eventually, since that is what Baha’u’llah wrote, so maybe that is what the “everyone will know” verses refer to.

    “Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    You're getting to be quite the Bible scholar. But this is chapter 6, so many more prophecies and tribulations are coming. And, the very next verses say...

    I agree Brian2. An earthquake 90 years before The Bab and in Portugal? I complain about this to TB all the time. The context, and what comes later, makes it seem like the whole world is going to be suffering from the wrath of God. What's happening now could very well be the things prophesied in Revelation. The whole world could be thrown into turmoil at any moment. But, Baha'is do expect that too. It's just for Christians that's when Jesus comes to save the day. And with Baha'is, that's when the people of the world turn to the Baha'i Faith to be saved.

    The other thing that I discussed with one of the Baha'is is that the "Lamb" is the main character. Who is this "Lamb"? Does it sound like Jesus or Baha'u'llah?
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Maybe more tribulations are coming. From what Baha'u'llah wrote, it seems likely.

    “The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119
     
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the tribulation has not yet happened then and the darkness and falling stars and earthquake then have not happened and Jesus has not returned.



    It looks to me that Peter was explaining to the people what was happened then. Why would he say that the men are not drunk, and then go on to explain what will happen hundreds of years later? It is what was happening then that Peter was showing was prophesied by Joel.
    And of course that means that that was the beginning of the last days.

    It isn't Baha'u'llah if he has not come after the tribulation.

    People don't need to recognise Him, it would become clear who He is very fast. He would save the Jews from political problems. He would execute the wrath of God on the earth and bring injustice and war to an end, etc etc.
    The dead will be brought back to life from the grave and judged.
    It won't be as if it could be someone else.
    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If you read Matthew 24, it seems to me that the tribulation is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. That is when the end of the age will come and Christ will return. Bible scholars agree that the gospel message had been preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations by the mid-19th century.

    Matthew 24 King James Version

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).


    ``````````````````````````````
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    However, nobody seems to know what the abomination of desolation refers to and there is no consensus, even on Christian websites. I was only able to find a discussion about it and it made sense to me what they cited from The Kitab-i-Iqan, since iniquity had covered the surface of the earth and darkness had enveloped mankind right before the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared.

    “What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs followthe darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32
    What was prophesied to happen in the last days - wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke, the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood - had not happened on the Day of Pentecost so Peter could not have been referring to what was happening on that day. In addition Joel said it shall happen, indicating that it would happen in the future, in the last days.

    Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    That’s true, but as I pointed out above, Baha’u’llah did come after the tribulation (after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel).

    Daniel Chapter 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    A day is a year according to the day-year principle, and the 2,300 years came in 1844 when the Bab declared His mission, and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah.
    The math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.
    I believe that Baha’u’llah executed the wrath of God on the earth and brought what will be necessary for mankind to bring injustice and war to an end.

    I believe the dead being brought back to life refers to the spiritually dead being brought back to spiritual life, and that makes more sense than dead people actually coming up from their physical graves. Of course, if Christ returned people would be brought back to spiritual life.

    One can interpret the Bible to mean whatever they want it to mean, which is why Christians do not share the same beliefs about the return of Christ, but the problem with all of the Christian expectations of the same man Jesus returning is that whoever fulfills these prophecies cannot be Jesus unless the Bible is in error. Not only did Jesus never promise to return, He said His work was finished here and He was no longer in the world, and that is why Christians will continue to wait for the same man Jesus and He will never return.

    (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)
     
    #75 Trailblazer, Sep 18, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Joel was speaking from an OT pov and saying what would happen in the last days.
    Peter was speaking from a NT pov and saying that what was happening on that Pentecost was part of the last days, part of what Joel had prophesied. The rest would no doubt come later, but then again everything did go dark when Jesus was crucified and there was an earthquake, but I don't think they were what Joel was referring to, just as I don't think that the events you have pointed out in the 18th century were what Joel was pointing to.


    Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
    I have looked at the way Bahai interprets the prophecies and I disagree with the 2300 days being about 1844 at all.
    I also when I look at Baha'i interpretation I notice that the 1335th day is in 1960 or something, there is no continuity in the years.
    I notice in Dan 12:11,12 that the daily sacrifice was not taken away in the year that the Islamic calendar was begun.
    And what happened at the 1290th day? The abomination of desolation was set up.
    What happened in the 1290th day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Baha'u'llah caused his mission to be known. Has that got anything to do with the abomination of desolation being set up do you think? It has if the prophecy of Daniel is actually followed by the Baha'i interpreters.
    In Matt 24 Jesus was speaking about both the destruction of the Temple in 70AD and the end times when Jesus would come back. I hear the Romans set up an abomination in the Temple at Jerusalem, an idol, and so imo the next abomination will also be set up in the Temple in Jerusalem even though at the moment the Temple is not built.
    The Daniel 12 prophecy (1260 days etc) is about the events that will unfold in that temple just before Jesus returns and the days are literal days.


    Really? How did he do that?

    Dead people need to be brought back to life. It's as simple as that. Jesus was resurrected and so will everyone be resurrected,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,some to face shame and some to be rewarded.

    No the Bible is not in error but you are in error in the way you have interpreted those verses to suite your purposes and in the way you ignore that Jesus did say that He would return to get His disciples to be where He is. (John 14:3)
    Every time Jesus says something about Himself and what He will do that fits with what Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah did, then Jesus was speaking about Baha'u'llah obviously.
    We wait for the same man Jesus because that is what Jesus said and that is what the angel in Acts 1 said.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Everyone interprets this prophecy in their own way. I do not even try to figure it out because I am not proficient in the Bible. Many biblical scholars have come to the year 1844, not just Baha’is. As this is a prophecy that @CG Didymus is very interested in, @TransmutingSoul (Tony) posted some links for CG to look at. Unfortunately I failed to save those links into a Word document as I usually do so maybe Tony would be so kind as to post those links here.
    By revealing what will be needed for mankind to bring injustice and war to an end in His Writings.
    Again, we all have our beliefs to which we are entitled but since I came to this forum I have posted to many different Christians so I now know that not all Christians believe that (a) the physical body of Jesus rose from the grave, or that (b) Christians will be physically resurrected from their graves. Since all Christians are reading the same Bible that means that they have interpreted the verses differently than you do. You might think that all orthodox Christians believe that but they don’t. Some orthodox Christians believe that Jesus rose in a spiritual body and that they will be resurrected in a spiritual body when they die. I was having a discussion with @Redemptionsong about this a few days ago on the thread Jesus as Christ.

    Moreover, if Jesus rose on a spiritual body that was an exact replica of His physical body that would explain why many people saw Him walking town around after He rose. There is no reason to believe that Jesus could not have made His spiritual body seem physical to the disciples since Jesus could do any miracle He wanted to do. The other possibility is that none of the resurrection stories were true and that they were just based upon myths as many liberal Christians believe.
    Of course, we have discussed this in the past, but I will post my interpretation of those verses for good measure since I have that saved in a Word document for easy access.

    John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Jesus said He would come again, but Jesus did not say ‘how’ He would come so there is no reason to think this one verse is Jesus saying He will come to earth again in the same physical body He had when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago.

    When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to His physical body coming again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

    Since Jesus said He was no more in the world and the world would see Him no more we know that when He said "and receive you unto myself" He was not talking about His physical body, but rather He was referring to His spirit. Also please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and ‘do’ anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as most Christians believe Jesus will do.

    "and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not about His physical body, because there would be no way that the disciples Jesus was speaking to could receive the body of Jesus on earth since they were no longer living on earth. Where Jesus was in heaven and that is where the disciples also are, so that is where Jesus received them. That is why Jesus said that He went to prepare a place for them, a place in heaven, not on earth.

    The spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah who was the return of Christ that Jesus promised. So when Jesus said “I will come again” He meant that His Spirit would come again because He would send His Spirit from the Father, and we see that in the verses that follow in John 14. Jesus promised not to leave us comfortless and then He said He would send a Comforter. The Comforter refers to the person who would be the return of Christ. So when Jesus said I will come again, He meant He would send His spirit in the person of the Comforter who would do what it says in John 14:26.

    John 14 KJV

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
    28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


    "and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” is referring to heaven, not earth, because Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place in heaven, not on earth. Jesus was preparing a place in heaven so they could be with him in heaven.

    John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    To summarize, Jesus did not say "my body will come again." The spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah, and that was what Jesus promised to send. Jesus was a Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit.

    John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    Any Christians who is still waiting for the same man Jesus is only waiting because that is what they want to happen, what they are hoping for, not because that is what Jesus ever promised. Jesus never said He was going to return to earth, not once in the New Testament, and as you know Jesus said His work was finished on earth and He was no more in the world.

    The angel in Acts did not say that he saw a body go up. I have my interpretation of those verses saved in a Word document too, so I may as well post it.

    Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

    The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

    Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
     
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  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    l believe NT scripture reveals that the Church age was kept a mystery to Hebrew prophets [see Ephesians 3:3-11]. It's particularly important to dwell upon the idea that Jew and Gentile 'should be fellowheirs' in Christ. This was not the prophetic word given to Israel under the law.

    If one can acknowledge the truth of this 'mystery' then one can look again at the prophecy of the Hebrew scriptures realising that the Church age is hidden from view. In other words, the Hebrew prophets only revealed what would happen to Israel under the law. This is why Daniel makes a prophecy of the seventy weeks, where 69 heptads are distinguished from the final 'week'. Without knowing the time period of the Church age one cannot accurately predict the beginning of this final seven years. The nearest we can get is to use the 'day as a thousand years' and assume the Church age will last two thousand years.
     
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  19. Thirza Fallen

    Thirza Fallen Crazy Cat Lady

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    There is so much that has been added to scripture. Isn't that a no-no?
     
  20. Thirza Fallen

    Thirza Fallen Crazy Cat Lady

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    Which ones still need to be fulfilled? I know there are a bunch, but do you have a list?
     
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