Prejudice against Hinduism

[Surya Deva]

you're preaching hate. should i blame Hinduism?

I am not preaching hate. I am telling it as it is. You may come across a lot of politically correct people, but I am not one of them. I have already proven in other threads Islam contains hate doctrines against non-believers and sanctions violence. I know of no other religion text which is full of so many injunctions on killing and has such a violent history. The Islamic terrorists are simply doing what they are told in the Quran - "kill the infidels, slay them wherever ye find them"

Telling the truth about something being hateful is not hate in and of itself

 

[.lava]

I am not preaching hate. I am telling it as it is. You may come across a lot of politically correct people, but I am not one of them. I have already proven in other threads Islam contains hate doctrines against non-believers and sanctions violence. I know of no other religion text which is full of so many injunctions on killing and has such a violent history. The Islamic terrorists are simply doing what they are told in the Quran

God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed. (Qur'an, 16:90)



As Muslims, we strongly condemn the terrorist attacks on two major cities of the United States of America on September 11, 2001, which caused the death and injury of thousands of innocent people, and we offer our condolences to the American nation. These attacks propelled the important issue of the true source of terrorism to the top of the world agenda. Thus, it has been announced to the entire world that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance that summons individuals to compassion and justice. Many world leaders, leading media organisations, television and radio stations said that true Islam forbids violence, and encourages peace between people and between nations.



The Western circles that have come to a full grasp of the religion of Islam and are well-informed about Islam as commanded by God in the Qur'an noted clearly that the words "Islam" and "terror" cannot stand side by side, and that no divine religion permits violence.


The source of the terror that we condemn is definitely not from a divine religion, and that there is no room for terrorism in Islam. This is made clear in the Qur'an, the main source of Islam, and in the practices of all true Muslim rulers, the Prophet Muhammad being the foremost of them.



As is known, for centuries, various acts of terrorism have been carried out in different parts of the world by different groups for a variety of purposes. Sometimes a communist organisation, sometimes a fascist group, and sometimes radical and separatist factions assume responsibility for these acts. While countries like America often became the target of attacks by racist and marginal terrorist groups, the European countries have been centre stage for violent acts carried out by terrorist groups. 17 November in Greece, RAF (Red Army Faction) and Neo-Nazis in Germany, ETA in Spain, Red Brigades in Italy and many other organisations seek to make their voices heard through terror and violence by killing innocent and defenceless people. The nature of terrorism changes with changing world conditions and increases its impact and power with the new means made possible by developing technology. In particular, mass communication tools such as the Internet extend the scope and influence of the terrorist activities considerably.

Besides the Western organisations, there are also other terror organisations of Middle East origin. Terrorist attacks are carried out by these groups in all corners of the world. Sadly, the fact that the perpetrators of various terrorist acts carry Christian, Muslim or Jewish identities cause some people to put forward claims which do not concur with divine religions. The truth is that even if terrorists have Muslim identities, the terror they perpetrate cannot be labelled "Islamic terror", just as it could not be called "Jewish terror" if the perpetrators were Jews or "Christian terror" if they were Christians. That is because murdering innocent people in the name of a divine religion is unacceptable. We need to keep in mind that, among those who were killed in New York and Washington, there were people who loved the Prophet Jesus (Christians), the Prophet Moses (Jews) and the Prophet Muhammad (Muslims). Unless forgiven by God, murdering innocent people is a great sin that leads to torment in Hell. No one who is religious and fears God would do such a thing.
The aggressors can commit such violence only with the intention of attacking religion itself. It may well be that those who carried out this violence did so to present religion as evil in the eyes of people, to divorce people from religion and to generate hatred towards those who are religiously inclined. Consequently, every attack on American citizens or other innocent people having a religious facade is actually an attack made against religion.



Religion commands love, mercy and peace. Terror, on the other hand, is the opposite of religion; it is cruel, merciless and demands bloodshed and misery. This being the case, the origins of a terrorist act should be sought in disbelief rather than in religion. People with a fascist, communist, racist or materialist outlook on life should be suspected as potential perpetrators. The name or the identity of the triggerman is not important. If he can kill innocent people without blinking an eye, then he is a nonbeliever, not a believer. He is a murderer with no fear of God, whose main ambition is to shed blood and to cause harm. For this reason, "Islamic terror" is an erroneous concept which contradicts the message of Islam. The religion of Islam can by no means countenance terrorism. On the contrary, terror (i.e. murder of innocent people) in Islam is a great sin, and Muslims are responsible for preventing these acts and bringing peace and justice to the world.


author: Harun Yahya


.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
The discussion of inter-religion is getting hotter & hotter and we agree with friend .lava when he states:

there are NO DIFFERENT KINDS OF ISLAM. there is only one Islam.

But friend .lava all muslims, christians, rather all of humanity must realise that there is only one god that all has to merge to. Understand that once all humans agree that it is the same god and that religions are different paths or ways to merge with that energy then the rest will be agreeable by default.
Because we humans keep differing with each other we find those many divisions even though you state that Islam is ONE there are so many sub-divisions starting with sia, sunni etc. We have to discuss unity and not differences between religions. Bring out commonalities to make this world a more conscious place.
Love & rgds
Love & rgds

 

[.lava]

But friend .lava all muslims, christians, rather all of humanity must realise that there is only one god that all has to merge to. Understand that once all humans agree that it is the same god and that religions are different paths or ways to merge with that energy then the rest will be agreeable by default.
Because we humans keep differing with each other we find those many divisions even though you state that Islam is ONE there are so many sub-divisions starting with sia, sunni etc. We have to discuss unity and not differences between religions. Bring out commonalities to make this world a more conscious place.
Love & rgds

i do not have problem with diversity and i do respect beliefs of others. so, what are you telling me exactly? do you sincerely believe it is me who needs to hear this explanation?


.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Makaveli: 'You phrased it in a manner that suggested the current Prime Minister is Catholic, which is false. I did not catch the other parts, so my fault.' You are not aware of Indian politics. It is the Gandhi family at the head of Indian National Congress, who rules. What is Manmohan Singh? He will tender his resignation before Sonia Gandhi can call his full name. Manmohan Singh is the primeminister at the pleasure and whim of Sonia Gandhi.

'You are attacking my line of reasoning, but here you use it to condemn all of Islam for the acts of a splinter group of adherents.' Terror does not happen (at least in India) in isolation. There are people who recruite, people who allow the terrorists to rent houses, people who supply explosives, people who steal vehicles which are then used in terrorist acts, people who send terror e-mails, people who place explosives, people who shelter the terrorists after the deed is done, people who help the terrorists to escape to Nepal, Bangladesh, or Pakistan, and people who send the money paid to terrorists for their upkeep, people who monetarily reward the terrorists after successful completion of the deed. It is a huge network spread all over India, thanks to Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). Actually, it should be named as Interservices Terrorist Organization (ITO). US had to force Pakistan to change its head recently. Muslims should not act innocent. Nobody is fooled.

'Kashmir is not a Hindu place, 95% of the people are Muslim, and it should have been allocated to Pakistan in the first place.': Muslims make 67% of the population of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. The rest are hindus, sikhs, and buddhists. India is not a hindu country, it is secular. So, how does the percentage of adherents of a particular religion matters? In turning out hindus from the valley, muslims have been treacherous (as they always have been). It was allocated to none, but Pakistan attacked. And to escape the barbarity of the attackers who looted all, hindus and muslims; the then King signed the letter of accession. Indian forces were airlifted to Kashmir only after that. Why blame India or hindus?

'That seems inconsistent with the brutalizing treatment religious minorities receive in your more "enlightened" country.': India is a large country. Conflicts do happen from time to time. The government takes care of that. The muslim populace is under no threat. They participate in all fields of life, politics, sports, entertainment, education, business, army, administration, etc. You are only trying to spread rumours.

'Again, the relevant statutes, court rulings, et cetera would be nice to see here.': Indian courts have been very active in punishing the culprits. The former Gujarat Director General of Police is in jail for his alleged involvement in killing of a muslim, the culprits in Bombay and Gujarat killings have been punished and serving their sentenses. Of course, everyone has the right to appeal to a higher court. That is how A.R.Geelani, who was one of the accused in the Indian Parliament Bombing was freed.

'that Hinduism is the problem, it is the adherents motivated by the holding of their religion.': You are welcome to your views. We think muslims are the problem, as they are in all parts of the world. There is no oppression of muslims. This is a canard by muslims to justify their terrorism. If hinduism was a problem, there would not have been 140 million muslims in India.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Mekaveli:

'There is nothing anti-Hindu in my posts, my posts are stating the facts that Hindus are persecuting the minorities in their country. It is evident that you are extremely biased.': There is no persecution of minorities in India. The Gujarat killing came after muslims burned a rail-coach full of hindus. The Bombay killing came after the bomb attacks on trains. Even the Orissa conflict started with killing of a religious person and four of his associates.

 

[want to be hindu]

A Brahmin must "purify" him or herself if he or she even gets in the shadow of an untouchable. This idiotic superstition about greater and lesser people is detrimental to society.

What gives you the right to judge my faith. Who do you think you are to come on a Hindu forum and insult Hinduism.

Hinduism is a family of faiths. Not all Hindu sects except the caste system. Many sects Tantra has rejected caste from day one. If you would like to learn about us and ask questions you are welcome to do so. Otherwise stop twisting my faith to make us look bad.

 

[want to be hindu]

if you wirship cows and so on. it is totally opposite -

I know you are young so I have been kind to you in the past. Please stop insulting my faith.I know you think of your self as very superior to us foolish cow worshiping Hindus. Why then do you come on a Hindu forum.It seems that you just want to run down our faith and insult us. Young man its time to look in the mirror and look at your self. Is this the type of person you want to be?:no:

 

[want to be hindu]

Institutionalized discrimination by a Hindu majority in a Hindu country is not the same as free individuals making entertainment for free adults in a majority Christian nation.

We in the U.S. only hear about Hindus killing Christians. Did you know that 1000s of Hindus have died in from Christian terrorist groups in north east India. A Swami I know was blown up by a bomb from a christian terrorist group in Assam.

A few more fun facts about India. Muslim and Christian groups dont have to pay taxes but Hindu groups do. Hindus pay taxes so muslims can go on hadj. Much of the info we get from the media in the west is not very good.

 

[want to be hindu]

i do not have problem with diversity and i do respect beliefs of others.

I see you this way also.

 

[Poisonshady313]

In the 21st century, people still believe that Jews have horns. Your claims of Hinduphobia do not impress me.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Poisonshady313,
The response to the point your raise would like to put in this fashion:
The Minds of people perceive what they like to. Our minds gets coloured/ preconceived/programmed as we want to so if someone sees things as PHOBIA then the person MIND is such.
This is the same reason that Zen is all about meditation and self realisation/enlightenment there is no room for discussions as they are endless due to the very MIND and its nature.
Love & rgds

 

[lilithu]

In turning out hindus from the valley, muslims have been treacherous (as they always have been).

....

We think muslims are the problem, as they are in all parts of the world.

Suraj will be happy that he has a playmate. :sarcastic

The Gujarat killing came after muslims burned a rail-coach full of hindus.

So they say. Sounds so "equal" that way. An eye for an eye.

There are some peculiarities, however. For example, the question of how people could burn a train car from the outside (supposedly by throwing molotov cocktails thru the windows) and not get any gasoline on the outside, only the inside. And why the bodies would be found in a pile in the center of the car, charred, when the ceiling of the train car was soot free. And why did the demographics of the burn victims not match the demographics of the passenger list??

Odd.

But even if we were to accept that this was an act of aggression by some Muslim group and the killings were in retaliation, let's look at the facts.

58 men, women, and children died in the train car.

The train car incident happened on Feb 27th. Rioting started on the same day, spreading even to remote villages by the 28th.

Somehow the rioters, even in these remote villages (who still use cow dung as cooking fuel), all had enough gasoline to reduce Muslim-owned shops to ashes and burn people alive.

Over 1,000 Muslims were killed, some estimate much higher.

Over 350 mosques were destroyed.

The organized, systematic violence lasted over a week, and the local police did nothing to stop it.


Let's be clear. I am not blaming Hinduism here, which is (over all) a venerable and noble religion. But India has a fascist side to it (as do other countries), embodied in the BJP. They have targeted religious/ethnic minorities as the cause of all of their problems (both social and economic), espoused a racial and cultural "purity," and whipped anti-Muslim sentiment up to a frenzy.

In fact, the effects of their work is evident in some of the posts on this forum.

 

[want to be hindu]

They have targeted religious/ethnic minorities as the cause of all of their problems (both social and economic), espoused a racial and cultural "purity," and whipped anti-Muslim sentiment up to a frenzy.

In fact, the effects of their work is evident in some of the posts on this forum.

I agree. As a Hindu I feel that I must respond to this.

I dont care if Hindus were killed on a train car. This is no reason to murder innocent people. I find the Hindu Fundamentalists who killed any children for any reason abhorrent. It is my job as a Hindu to stand up for what we Hindus call Dharma. It is very easy to be Critical of followers of other groups (religious or political) when they behave like nazis. It is more important for us to take a good long look at our selfs and our faith. We must be expect more from ourselves then others. We must all be willing to objectively look at our selfs and the groups we are a part of and weed out any immoral beliefs and actions. Evil thrives in dark places. We must all take the flash light of wisdom and shine it in to our own hearts and look at what we really believe.

 

[Surya Deva]

58 men, women, and children died in the train car.

The train car incident happened on Feb 27th. Rioting started on the same day, spreading even to remote villages by the 28th.

Somehow the rioters, even in these remote villages (who still use cow dung as cooking fuel), all had enough gasoline to reduce Muslim-owned shops to ashes and burn people alive.

Over 1,000 Muslims were killed, some estimate much higher.

Over 350 mosques were destroyed.

The organized, systematic violence lasted over a week, and the local police did nothing to stop it.

The argument that 58 Hindu men, women and children were killed, and in retaliation 1000 Muslims were killed, thus being disproportionate is out of touch with reality. Do you think Lilthu that Hindus would have gone and picked 58 Mulim men, women and children? No, the Gujurati Hindus were furious. They were not acting from rationality, but sentimentality(irrationality) so they went on a rampage and riots started.

The case now has gone to Supreme court and external organizations have acquitted the BJP government of any complicity in this incident. But I don't actually agree, I think their definitely was a complicity by the state and the media, and I think it continues in the persecution of Muslims in Gujurat. I do not support indescriminate killing, but this act is a manifestation of growing Hindu intolerance to Muslims because of repeated terrorist activity by them, violence, preaching of hatred in Mosques, and unfair government policies which is increasing resentment to them.

Such riots could easily happen here in the West Lilthu with state complicity. When 9/11 occurred, many Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims(unfortunately, the attacker cannot discriminate between the three) were attacked for revenge. I know the extent of racism that exists in the UK, and most probably in the US too, that experts call "subtle racism" largely because of alienated the Western public has become from brown minorities. More and more people in the UK are considering voting for BNP(British fascist party) today UK racism is disguised as excessive concern for immigrants, for job-stealing. I come across a lot of closet racists. The Shilpa Shetty and Big Brother incident showed just how much racism there is. Institutionally as well the police raids of Muslim homes, arrests of Muslims and check-ups on Muslim has dramatically increased.

Can you imagine what would happen if BNP came to power, combined with a terrorist attack anywhere in the UK?

The fact was in India a Hindu nationalist party was in power, with links to a fascist political entity like VHP. This combined with growing alienation of Hindu people from Muslims became a lethal combination. What resulted was the Gujurat riots.

We could spend another few decades debating what caused this. But one thing is clear if Islam is a factor not only in this situation, but in the West as well and in other parts of the world, that it is time to point our gaze at Islam and stop being politically correct.

This would be rational. If it is true that Islam and hate-violence are always together, that is enough to say that there is a definite relationship and correlation between the two. Then if you actually look at Islamic scripture and find injunctions to kill, maim, rape and slaughter, for whatever reason. In statistical analysis, correlations have been establised over even less. But with Islam there is a very high incidence rate of violence.

The truth is as soon as you remove political correctness, all fingers will point to Islam. It is time to deal with the issues then, than pretending they do not exist. Or do you want to wait until riots start in the West as well?

 

[lilithu]

Such riots could easily happen here in the West Lilthu with state complicity.

I doubt that there could be a "riot" that would last over a week killing over 1,000 Muslims. But I am well aware of violence against Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus in the U.S. as a result of fear and stupidity. I have met the brother of the Sikh who as murdered in Arizona shortly after 9/11. I know there is no shortage of xenophobia in the U.S. AND I know that my own govt is guilty of racial profiling, targeting Arabs and Muslims for no reason other than their ethnicity and/or religion. And that this attitude of "Muslims considered guilty until proven innocent" is what led to the outrages in Abu Ghraib and the continued denial of human rights in Guantanamo.

I am well aware of the faults of my own country, Suraj, and am willing to point to them. It doesn't mitigate what happened in Gujarat.

The truth is as soon as you remove political correctness, all fingers will point to Islam.

Right, rioters raped, murdered and pillaged, and burned alive over 1,000 Muslim men, women, and children. But it's their fault, they made the rioters do it by their being Muslim. :areyoucra

The truth is that you are blinded by hate. What you call "political correctness" is the attempt to be as fair and objective as one can. It is highly ironic and even more sad that you can point to hurts committed against adherents of your own religion, and instead of that giving you more compassion for the wrongs done to others, you turn around and do the same thing to them.

 

[kiwimac]

. . . Right, rioters raped, murdered and pillaged, and burned alive over 1,000 Muslim men, women, and children. But it's their fault, they made the rioters do it by their being Muslim. :areyoucra

The truth is that you are blinded by hate. What you call "political correctness" is the attempt to be as fair and objective as one can. It is highly ironic and even more sad that you can point to hurts committed against adherents of your own religion, and instead of that giving you more compassion for the wrongs done to others, you turn around and do the same thing to them.

Quoted For Truth!

 

[Surya Deva]

I doubt that there could be a "riot" that would last over a week killing over 1,000 Muslims. But I am well aware of violence against Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus in the U.S. as a result of fear and stupidity. I have met the brother of the Sikh who as murdered in Arizona shortly after 9/11. I know there is no shortage of xenophobia in the U.S. AND I know that my own govt is guilty of racial profiling, targeting Arabs and Muslims for no reason other than their ethnicity and/or religion. And that this attitude of "Muslims considered guilty until proven innocent" is what led to the outrages in Abu Ghraib and the continued denial of human rights in Guantanamo.

I am well aware of the faults of my own country, Suraj, and am willing to point to them. It doesn't mitigate what happened in Gujarat.

Well, there you go then. The fact is the same conditions that lead to the Gujurat riot exist in the West, only that they are expressed more sporardically and due to higher levels of political correctness they end up being suppressed, but they are definitely there. All they need is the right trigger for them to come out.

India got that right trigger in the form of BJP being in power and its political ally VHP. It only took one incident for their feelings to erupt. The west could get the right trigger in the form of neo-cons, which have gone on record saying they hate Muslims or or nationalist parties in Europe, such as the BNP. Even Labour is becoming more conservative.

Don't forget that Hindu fascists(RSS/VHP/Hindutva) are heavily inspired by their Western counterparts, the white-nationalist and supremist organizations. Go to stromfront online, you will see them publically(on their forums) talking about planned and organized genocide against non-white minorities. They are waiting for the right conditions. They are far worse in the kind of destuction they are speaking of than RSS, which at least politically is not calling for genocide of Muslims, simply subjection to Hindu rule.

The truth is once the conditions happen in the West that happened in India for the Gururat riots, even more lethal riots will be witnessed here. We should not wait for such things to happen. We need to address REAL problems that exist today. It is true many people in the West resent Muslims. It is true that Muslims are not doing enough to deal with the REAL problem of HATE and violence in Pure Islam. These problems need to be addressed because they are real, and pretending they do not exist like you are doing is most definitely not wise.

Suppression should not continue in the name of political correctness.

The truth is that you are blinded by hate. What you call "political correctness" is the attempt to be as fair and objective as one can.

No, the truth is that you are blinded by political correctness. You are not being fair and objective. How can you be when you said that I am blinded by hate, I have so far said I have no problem with Muslims or Islam and I do not support Hindutva and indescriminate killing. I have only said that we need to start to tackle REAL problems in Islam, and stop pretending they don't exist. So that Muslims can finally address the questions being asked by the whole world and the alienation ends. I am calling for mutual understanding.

You on the other hand are telling people to willingly be blind. To not call a spade a spade. That is not fair and nor is it objective.

 

[Surya Deva]

I was just reflecting on the course this thread has taken. It is interesting that I raised the issue of prejudice against Hinduism, which is a real issue that Hindus are facing, and some non-Hindus entered this thread and started criticising Hinduism because of caste system, sati and Hindutva to take focus of the real issue of prejudice Hindus face.

Yet, if non-Muslims started posting in the Islam forum on an issue of prejudice against them, if anybody started blaming them for terrorism, oppression of women and a history of violence, the same people(Lilthu et al) who are criticising Hindus here would cry foul.

These forums are not even for debate they are for people of religions to represent their religion and mutul understanding. Why is that these standards only seem to apply to the Abrahmic forums, but not to the Hindu forum.

It is very apparent for everyone to see the double standards.

 

[Surya Deva]

What gives you the right to judge my faith. Who do you think you are to come on a Hindu forum and insult Hinduism.

Hinduism is a family of faiths. Not all Hindu sects except the caste system. Many sects Tantra has rejected caste from day one. If you would like to learn about us and ask questions you are welcome to do so. Otherwise stop twisting my faith to make us look bad.

Yes, exactly Want to be Hindu, what gives these guys the right to come our forum and insult Hinduism? This exemplfies what I said at the start of this thread, there exists against Hinduism a lot of prejudice and discrimination. It seems like it is fair-game to say anything you want against Hinduism, but if it against the Abrahmic religions, then everyone has to observe political correctness.

These forums are for people to come here and learn about Hinduism. To ask Hindus questions. They are not to come here and insult our religion. Sorry we just do not appreciate that.