Praying to god for help, does it really make any sense?

[arthra]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either
1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .
2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."
Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?
So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle? .

I think prayers are provided for us to be aware of the dire conditions humanity faces.... The prayers themselves are often revealed by a Messenger of God... So the focal point of the prayer is a focus for our awareness of need(s).

I'll suggest something here that relates to our human condition... The terrible and horrific destruction we are made aware of in Aleppo Syria where human life has become a painful experience for children, families and everyone who has been trying to rescue them.

Tomorrow I'm attending an interfaith meeting in my community and as the United States and Russia are meeting for deliberations this coming Saturday in Lucerne Switzerland.

What prayer can we offer for this situation.... that can move hearts and stir the conscience of mankind?

Thou seest, O my God, how the wrongs committed by such of Thy creatures as have turned their backs to Thee have come in between Him in Whom Thy Godhead is manifest and Thy servants. Send down upon them, O my Lord, what will cause them to be busied with each others' concerns. Let, then, their violence be confined to their own selves, that the land and they that dwell therein may find peace.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 195)

and

O Thou kind Lord! This gathering is turning to Thee. These hearts are radiant with Thy love. These minds and spirits are exhilarated by the message of Thy glad-tidings. O God! Let this American democracy become glorious in spiritual degrees even as it has aspired to material degrees, and render this just government victorious. Confirm this revered nation to upraise the standard of the oneness of humanity, to promulgate the Most Great Peace, to become thereby most glorious and praiseworthy among all the nations of the world....

(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 24)

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

This whole supposed problem with theism is easily resolved if you do away with the "omni-" stuff. One prays to a deity and gives them offerings in order to grow closer to that deity and gain their attention and favor.

 

[Acim]

So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle?
.

I'm going with you are missing something here. As was stated on p.1 of the thread.

 

[Ana.J]

I think God personally does not help anyone. He is just an observer. It is the faith of people who pray does miracles. WE are the power for a change, not someone else.

 

[Shia Islam]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either

1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .

2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."

Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?

So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle?

.

Consider this scenario:
You have followed Satan the Devil and turned away from God and committed evil in the eyes of God..
As a consequence, God mad your life like Hell!

Here, by asking God for help, you have automatically turned away from the Devil and turned toward God...So you have changed, and you deserve that God answer your prayer...

You can think of other more complicated scenarios.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either

1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .

2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."

Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?

So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle?

.

Neither of those possibilities are inconsistent with some god-concepts.

I have another, though:

3) God is aware of the problem and has a good reason for not helping, but the person praying wants God to undermine his plan just for them.

 

[Windwalker]

Are you saying that god is not omniscient; he doesn't know everything? Or what? Your prose is not clear.

I am saying that your notions of omniscience is magical thinking, like having a head full of every word in the Encyclopedia Galactica and being able to knowing the winning lottery ticket numbers years in advance. You define God the way a child does Santa Claus. Is that clearer?

????

You have to apply yourself a little to what I said. Even if I explain it in more words, you'll still have to think about it a bit to understand it. Do you understand what the power of symbolism is and the effects it has?

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either

1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .

2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."

Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?

So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle?

.

something that is not dogmatic.

 

[viole]

Nop. But we have a Talmudic saying:
The way a person wants to go, he is lead.

You mean lead like the chemical element?

So, do you agree that there are (a lot) of cases where prayers does not take one closer to god (for the simple reason that such god does not exist)?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Skwim]

Neither of those possibilities are inconsistent with some god-concepts.

I have another, though:

3) God is aware of the problem and has a good reason for not helping, but the person praying wants God to undermine his plan just for them.

Possibly, but it's a quite a stretch. My premise was about assumptions people would likely make to justify prayers for help, and I don't think they'd do so if they thought god would undermine his plan just because they asked.


.

 

[Skwim]

I am saying that your notions of omniscience is magical thinking, like having a head full of every word in the Encyclopedia Galactica and being able to knowing the winning lottery ticket numbers years in advance. You define God the way a child does Santa Claus. Is that clearer?

But I'm not the one claiming god is omniscient. Those who believe in the god of Abraham claim this is what he is, and I'm simply working off their claim. Considering that I'm an agnostic, I thought this would be pretty self evident.

Omniscience /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/, mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know. In particular, Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) and the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) believe that there is a divine being who is omniscient. .
Source: Wikipedia.​

.

 

[viole]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either

1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .

2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."

Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?

So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle?

.

I think that trying to find rationality in praying will not lead anywhere. If someone already believes that their God is the true one, everything goes. The fact that mutually contradicting Gods seem to answer the prayers of their respective believers with the same reliability, should make it obvious to any rational person what chances I have to be helped by Jesus if I pray: they are the same that I would get if I prayed to Apollo, or to that glass of wine in front of me. If it was otherwise, we would know by now., since the hit ratio of prayers is something we could actually measure empirically.

Maybe praying is just a form of *** covering. Maybe people feel better if they delegate the course of events to someone else, and they did their due diligence to inform Him. Maybe our psychology requires that if something goes wrong, then it is not because of us, or because of some random contingency, but because of the will of someone greater with a happy end ready for later. . Maybe all this is a natural adaptation which provides measurable psychological advantages that enable us to carry on, at least on average.

By the way, i think there is some evidence that if you speak out loud your problems, you have a slightly higher chance to solve them. I tried it myself with some math problems (my hubby thinks I am crazy when I talk to myself) and it seems to work. Alas, I did not carry any double blind experiment and it is still possible that I am victim of confirmation bias.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Windwalker]

But I'm not the one claiming god is omniscient. Those who believe in the god of Abraham claim this is what he is, and I'm simply working of their claim. Considering that I'm an agnostic, I thought this would be pretty self evident.

Omniscience /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/, mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know. In particular, Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) and the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) believe that there is a divine being who is omniscient. .
Source: Wikipedia.​

.

Did you notice it mentions the Dharmic religions as well? I don't Santa Claus God reflects their thoughts about omniscience. It certainly doesn't reflect mine. I think your "dictionary definition" falls a tad short in reflecting how people think of what omniscience means. I see omniscience in the sense of Buddha Mind, knowing the Truth in all things, not knowing all facts and figures and data ever collected past, present and future, like Santa Claus.

BTW, do you understand now what I meant about how the value of prayer is in its symbolic power? That is after all the real point of it.

 

[Quintessence]

I know the questions are not intended for polytheists, but I answer the questions to shed some light on how different theological perspectives approach these things for those who might be interested. A Pagan/polytheist perspective:

1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .

In polytheistic religions, the gods are not omniscient or omnipresent, so it's not only possible that a particular god isn't paying attention to you at a particular moment without a prayer/ritual, it's quite likely.

2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."

In polytheistic religions, the gods are not assumed to care about humans, to be benevolent, or nice in any fashion. Rather than calling the gods petty because they don't revolve around humans, I'd call humans arrogant for expecting the gods to revolve around their species when they're but one of tens of thousands of species on this planet.

Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?

As noted, the gods aren't expected to revolve around humans in polytheistic religions. How Pagans relate to their gods looks a lot like how humans relate to other humans, so we can approach questions like this by asking something like "why would a person help one person and not another person?" A lot of it boils down to the relationship those people have with each other - or the relationship a person has to one of the gods. If you ask a total stranger for a favor, are they more or less likely to help you out compared to asking a close friend, a family member, or a co-worker? You also have to consider if the person you are asking has the skills to help you in your situation. They might not have that skill set. As an example, asking for a grain deity for blessings during a harvest makes a heck of a lot more sense than asking a war deity. In polytheistic religions, there is also a lot of emphasis put on the form of rituals and petitions; you want to make requests and offerings in a way that is appropriate to the person/god you are asking.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

I think that trying to find rationality in praying will not lead anywhere. If someone already believes that their God is the true one, everything goes. The fact that mutually contradicting Gods seem to answer the prayers of their respective believers with the same reliability, should make it obvious to any rational person what chances I have to be helped by Jesus if I pray: they are the same that I would get if I prayed to Apollo, or to that glass of wine in front of me. If it was otherwise, we would know by now., since the hit ratio of prayers is something we could actually measure empirically.

Maybe praying is just a form of *** covering. Maybe people feel better if they delegate the course of events to someone else, and they did their due diligence to inform Him. Maybe our psychology requires that if something goes wrong, then it is not because of us, or because of some random contingency, but because of the will of someone greater with a happy end ready for later. . Maybe all this is a natural adaptation which provides measurable psychological advantages that enable us to carry on, at least on average.

By the way, i think there is some evidence that if you speak out loud your problems, you have a slightly higher chance to solve them. I tried it myself with some math problems (my hubby thinks I am crazy when I talk to myself) and it seems to work. Alas, I did not carry any double blind experiment and it is still possible that I am victim of confirmation bias.

Ciao

- viole

You're addressing a pretty narrow range of theologies here. I get tired of atheists thinking they've somehow conquered all belief by making arguments against classical monotheism. A polytheist can shrug off the whole "how do you know you're worshipping the right god?" discourse, regardless of how confidently it's asserted.

 

[viole]

You're addressing a pretty narrow range of theologies here.

I am addressing all theologies which contemplate the usefulness of praying, at least on this thread. If your theology does no see any use in praying, then I am not addressing that theology.

I get tired of atheists thinking they've somehow conquered all belief by making arguments against classical monotheism.

Since zero (evidence) multiplied by n, where n is greater than 1, is still zero, I beileve arguments against monotheism (1) are equally applicable to polytheism (n).

A polytheist can shrug off the whole "how do you know you're worshipping the right god?" discourse, regardless of how confidently it's asserted.

Of course she can. Especially if she worships all possible gods.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Tumah]

You mean lead like the chemical element?

Isn't the chemical name for lead plumbonium or something?

So, do you agree that there are (a lot) of cases where prayers does not take one closer to god (for the simple reason that such god does not exist)?

Ciao

- viole

I would maybe say it differently. All prayer takes you where you want it to take you, although not everywhere you want to go, is a good place to go.

 

[Quintessence]

ISince zero (evidence) multiplied by n, where n is greater than 1, is still zero, I beileve arguments against monotheism (1) are equally applicable to polytheism (n).

No, they really, really aren't. Nor are all arguments for/against monotheism equal. Nor do any of these arguments have zero evidence for them. "I don't accept this evidence" =/= no evidence.

Alas, this isn't the thread to discuss this, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Sonofason]

So, do you think he helps because he's been asked to, or would help regardless of such prayers?

I believe that sometimes God helps because He has been asked to help, and sometimes God does not help, even though He has been asked to help.
Sometimes God does not help when help is not asked for, and sometimes God does help even though help is not asked for. I believe God decides when He is going to help, and when He is not going to help. And I personally trust His judgement.

Certainly, which was my observation in my OP:

"prayers asking for assistance. . . assume god is either
"unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business."​

OR

"he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least."​

In both cases god needs to be asked.

I think, if you do not believe in God, and if you do not believe that God can help, you do not deserve His help, whether you ask for it or not. And isn't that the case for you? Why would you expect someone to help you that you won't even acknowledge exists. I know I wouldn't help you, if you just expected it of me. You need to have respect for God. Without it, you do not deserve his help.

And isn't that what people who pray for his help doing "pray[ing] for ourselves and for others"?

I think you missed my point. It is good to pray, even if God doesn't even hear you simply because it places your needs and the needs of others in the forefront of you mind, the place where it needs to be if you are going to do anything about it. If you want to help someone, helping them must be on your mind. Praying to God is a means of keeping that which is important to you on the forefront of your mind. In addition, God may just answer your prayer.

I don't know about need, but Christians say god wants to be worshiped.

A wife usually commands respect from her husband. If you do not love her, it is very unlikely that she will stand by you. God is not so petty as to be demanding. He commands our love, and it would do us well to respect His commands. If we do not, we are not entitled to the mercy and grace He offers to each and every one of us. God does not necessarily want to be worshiped. His nature commands it. And just as their are consequences to a spouses relationship if he fails to love and honor his wife, so it is with God.

 

[Sunstone]

Praying to get something strikes me as absurd for various reasons already mentioned in this thread by others.
.
Praying to give thanks strikes me as unnecessary -- does one really need to pray to feel gratitude? And if one does, isn't the gratitude a tad bit constructed and artificial?

Praying as a form of contemplation strikes me as having potential.