Prayer: The Miracle of a Literal Super-Power

[lewisnotmiller]

Yet you have an opinion. Other peoples' beliefs don't meet with your own world view, so you deny that it's possible.

Deny what's possible? Any chance of clarifying how or where I've done whatever it is you're rabbiting on about? Or do you just act cantankerously towards atheists on principal?

You're the one insisting that because you're an atheist, self-evident facts, whether I point them out or not, aren't clear.

'Self-evident' is a value judgement. And the way you use the word, so is 'fact'. My point is that your suggesting certainty without evidence and using value laden-language to suggest anyone disagreeing is disagreeing with 'clear and self evident facts'. Which is bunkum. They are disagreeing with your opinion.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. Passing it off as fact is not something you should expect others to stand by and nod at.

Unless you want to have a go at defining 'self-evident' and 'facts' and let me know how the heck they apply to the OP of course.

That's circular logic. Whether it's a judgment of yours, I can't say. Probably.

Yeah, so do you need me to help you with what 'circular logic' means? I'm not the one trying to tell people they need to agree with me.

 

[JJ50]

It's well-recognized that there are many things in our collective universe that cannot be adequately explained by science.

Whether or not you follow an organized religion and have been blessed with the feeling of God's love, you will know that experience of deep meaning and understanding upon witnessing a birth or seeing a perfect sunrise/sunset.

Communing with God provides a special connection to our universe and eliminating the awful feelings of confusion and loneliness that the lost and soulless are cursed with. There is ample evidence that people who pray regularly live longer, are happier and are more free from demon curses of drug abuse and sexual perversion.

Behold the recent story of a pastor brought back from the brink of certain death, only by the prayer of those around the world that loved her:

Miracle Healing, Released by the Power of Prayer, Touches Comatose Pastor on the Verge of Death

Prayer is a literal super-power that can heal wounds, save lives and reverse fortune. When you pray, do you expect that God will hear your prayers and answer them in His own way, or do you do so, "just in case"? If you used to pray, but have stopped later in life, do you make the distinction between praying super-powers for yourself and others versus fantasy superpowers such as Spider-man or Aquaman possess? To me, it is wondrous that we have such a tool at our disposal, yet sad that we do not make more frequent use of it; if more people prayed regularly, there would be less war, famine, deviance and strife afflicting our beautiful world.

The god of the Bible, if it exists, has its deaf aid on most of the time when it comes to prayer. How come it will ensure a good day for the church fete, but does not respond positively to prayers for a sick child, for instance?

 

[Grumpuss]

Deny what's possible? Any chance of clarifying how or where I've done whatever it is you're rabbiting on about? Or do you just act cantankerously towards atheists on principal?

You're the one making short, 1-2 lists of why it's impossible. I never said a word against "atheists", so I think whatever grudge you imagine is your own. Peace to you.

'Self-evident' is a value judgement. And the way you use the word, so is 'fact'. My point is that your suggesting certainty without evidence and using value laden-language to suggest anyone disagreeing is disagreeing with 'clear and self evident facts'. Which is bunkum. They are disagreeing with your opinion.

You are completely entitled to your opinion. Passing it off as fact is not something you should expect others to stand by and nod at.

Unless you want to have a go at defining 'self-evident' and 'facts' and let me know how the heck they apply to the OP of course.

Maybe goodwill and prayer aren't for you. No need to throw a turd in the punchbowl, just because you can't allow others to believe what they want to believe. I give you permission to be a killjoy whiner elsewhere. Bring a good book, because I think you might be alone.

Yeah, so do you need me to help you with what 'circular logic' means? I'm not the one trying to tell people they need to agree with me.

Now you're just making strawman arguments to cover the fact you can't effectively debate.

The god of the Bible, if it exists, has its deaf aid on most of the time when it comes to prayer. How come it will ensure a good day for the church fete, but does not respond positively to prayers for a sick child, for instance?

Take it up with God. Maybe if you shake your fist at the sky and yell loud enough, he'll give you the answer you're looking for. The trick is: you have to have your ears working first. Heart too.

 

[JJ50]

You're the one making short, 1-2 lists of why it's impossible. I never said a word against "atheists", so I think whatever grudge you imagine is your own. Peace to you.

Maybe goodwill and prayer aren't for you. No need to throw a turd in the punchbowl, just because you can't allow others to believe what they want to believe. I give you permission to be a killjoy whiner elsewhere. Bring a good book, because I think you might be alone.

Now you're just making strawman arguments to cover the fact you can't effectively debate.

Take it up with God. Maybe if you shake your fist at the sky and yell loud enough, he'll give you the answer you're looking for. The trick is: you have to have your ears working first. Heart too.

If it exists why does it stay hidden on its fluffy white cloud making its existence a matter of faith, or incredulity?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

"Blessed" with children? What sort of monster would give children to people suffering from a famine?

It's really very sad how people want to pass blame and judgment to God for the way the world is, when He said,

Genesis 1:26 (ESV Strong's) 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Genesis 1:28 (ESV Strong's) 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

God created humans and gave us DOMINION over the earth, to RULE over the earth. Why would He give US the earth, tell US to rule over it and then take care of every bad thing we cause? Humans have no one to blame but ourselves for what happens on this earth. That's like parents having a child and letting him/her do as they pleased, and whatever trouble they get into, the parent would take care of it. The child would never suffer for any wrong choice he/she ever made. What ever good they did would be great, but whatever wrong they did, the parents would be there to clean up the mess. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Why not blame the parents of a person that gives birth to an unhealthy baby? Why not say, ' whats wrong with your genes mom/dad? Why did my baby not come out healthy, whats in my family history that caused this?" No, we won't blame our mom or our dad, but we will blame a God we don't really know exists or not! We have to blame someone, but no way a parent, so let's blame a God that might or might not exist.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It's really very sad how people want to pass blame and judgment to God for the way the world is.

Why would He give US the earth, tell US to rule over it and then take care of every bad thing we cause? Humans have no one to blame but ourselves for what happens on this earth. That's like parents having a child and letting him/her do as they pleased, and whatever trouble they get into, the parent would take care of it. The child would never suffer for any wrong choice he/she ever made. What ever good they did would be great, but whatever wrong they did, the parents would be there to clean up the mess. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Why not blame the parents of a person that gives birth to an unhealthy baby?

I don't blame God for anything... I don't believe He exists.

However, I can easily postulate His existence, and draw conclusions from what we witness in the world.

I don't know of many people... or anyone at all really, who blames God for human screw ups. The only thing I have ever heard is people asking why God might not lend a hand in protecting/helping innocents in certain situations.

However, there are PLENTY of non-human-started conditions - things that are, in no way, our fault, that no help is forthcoming for.

Perfect example is your damaged baby from otherwise perfectly healthy parents who tried their best to foster a healthy birth of a healthy child. If God is able to help in those situations, but chooses not to, then the obvious question is "why?"

It would be much like the people of a kingdom looking to their king during a famine, knowing he has stores of food of all kinds and plenty of wealth to help keep his subjects fed, and yet he refuses to release even one stalk of wheat - not one crust of bread. Why do the people feel slighted when the king eats lavishly while they watch their own starve to death? I know we're not talking "apples to apples" here, because a king is just a man. However, is God's complacency any better when His means to help are (supposedly) infinitely better than any mere man?

Again, I don't believe in God. I can certainly see cogency to certain points made when assuming His existence however. Have you ever considered looking at points made from the position of His not existing?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Non-reward does not equal "punishment". People are free to reject God, and may even thrive in life without Him.

And by referencing the U.N. peacekeepers in Bosnia, I meant that they started several brothels and sex-trades to service the people over there. Not exactly in the spirit of selfless unity and peace.

I looked back, and you're right, you didn't reference outright punishment. Based on the tone of some of your replies (for example, claiming the innocent who die in wars, even if they had prayed, must not have "prayed hard enough"), I had assumed you were one of those who claim that things like hurricanes, floods and volcano eruptions must be God's "punishment" for the afflicted people, based on some behavior or another they must have been "sinning" within.

If that's not you, then I apologize for making assumptions. Although, you do have to admit to having made some pretty heavy assumptions within this thread yourself... something about someone else feeling that civility be best measured by one's access to TGIFriday's? At least that is what I can remember off the top of my head. Maybe I missed it, or maybe your apology is just still forthcoming, eh?

 

[Grumpuss]

If it exists why does it stay hidden on its fluffy white cloud making its existence a matter of faith, or incredulity?

I think perhaps you ought to pray on it.

 

[Grumpuss]

I looked back, and you're right, you didn't reference outright punishment. Based on the tone of some of your replies (for example, claiming the innocent who die in wars, even if they had prayed, must not have "prayed hard enough"), I had assumed you were one of those who claim that things like hurricanes, floods and volcano eruptions must be God's "punishment" for the afflicted people, based on some behavior or another they must have been "sinning" within.

Quite the assumption. But no, I don't believe God punishes for sins. That's some weird, Pat Robertson-like logic.

If that's not you, then I apologize for making assumptions. Although, you do have to admit to having made some pretty heavy assumptions within this thread yourself... something about someone else feeling that civility be best measured by one's access to TGIFriday's? At least that is what I can remember off the top of my head. Maybe I missed it, or maybe your apology is just still forthcoming, eh?

Apology noted.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Have you ever considered looking at points made from the position of His not existing?

No I haven't, I can't, because I believe He does exist.

Perfect example is your damaged baby from otherwise perfectly healthy parents who tried their best to foster a healthy birth of a healthy child. If God is able to help in those situations, but chooses not to, then the obvious question is "why?"

Genesis 1:27-28 (ESV Strong's) 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth".

I don't believe that God would bless mankind, tell us to "be fruitful and multiply fill the earth" and expect there to be damaged babies. All the bad that happens is because of the curse on the earth from sin, or God wants us to know Him. Like the blind man that Jesus healed,

John 9:1-3 (ESV Strong's) 1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Jesus said,

Matthew 17:19-20 (ESV Strong's) Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” 20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

God said, "let them rule over the earth", Jesus said "speak to your problems... and nothing will be impossible to you", IF WE HAVE FAITH AND DOUBT NOT!

So why would God expect us to pray to Him to do something He gave us the authority and right to do?


Ephesians 6:16-18 (ESV Strong's) In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.

The Bible says we are to pray ALL the time, that doesn't mean to pray and ask God to do everything for us, it says to pray at all times with the Word of God. We are to speak the Word of God over our circumstances!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You're the one making short, 1-2 lists of why it's impossible. I never said a word against "atheists", so I think whatever grudge you imagine is your own. Peace to you.

Why what is impossible?

Maybe goodwill and prayer aren't for you. No need to throw a turd in the punchbowl, just because you can't allow others to believe what they want to believe. I give you permission to be a killjoy whiner elsewhere. Bring a good book, because I think you might be alone.

Prayer is not for me, that's correct. I personally couldn't give two hoots if you pray though, and good luck to whomever else finds peace in that path.
As stated, multiple times, present your opinion as 'self-evident fact' and someone may call you on it. Amazing, I know. If that's whining, you have an amazingly low threshold for being questioned. Which is fair enough. I would too if I made gratuitous claims.

Now you're just making strawman arguments to cover the fact you can't effectively debate.

I'm making a straw man argument? Interesting take. I say you can't show a circular argument I've made in this thread in a clear fashion. And given the nature of circular arguments, it should be dead easy. Feel free to dodge or prevaricate on that if you like. Or play the man, even. Doesn't worry me. I neither expect people to agree with me, nor respect them less when they don't.
Baseless claims are a slightly different matter.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How virtuous of you. So you know for a fact those people were good and God-fearing?

Seems unlikely they all were. Seems certain that some were. But then, they were Muslims, so maybe it was the wrong God.

Btw- the UN Peacekeepers weren't all wonderful people either.

Exactly. The only good guys here were the Serbian death squads.

Most philosophers would disagree. For someone to observe and label things as "misery", "famine" or "cancer", it requires conscious, intelligent thought. None of that is possible without being alive in the first place. Mothers with terminally ill infants invariably are thankful for the brief moments their have with those children. They don't, as you might suggest, go sour and decide that life sucks.

Most philosophers? MOST philosophers?
Name 3 things most philosophers agree on. Doesn't even have to be on topic.
'Most philosophers...'

Incidentally, in terms of mother's not deciding life sucks when they lose their infants;

Mother's risk of an early death soars by 133% following loss of a child | Daily Mail Online

Such people do not somehow go extinct, though.

That's true, assuming you're talking generally, and not about Tasmanian aboriginals, or the Taino or something.

You paint other cultures with a broad brush and from a palette that only includes colors from your privileged upbringing. It's an obscene way to act morally superior, as though you can tell how successful another culture is, because you read about it once on the Internet.

I've lived in remote areas, seen tribal warfare first hand. Whatever caused him to form the views he has, they are not the ones appearing to downplay the plight of those less fortunate globally.

I'd encourage you to actually go to these places where these people are "starving". You will still find happiness. You will still find God.

There is happiness, you are right. And where I lived was overwhelmingly Christian, so God was there too. But life was also brutal. High crime, particularly rape. Poor hygiene. High infant mortality. Low education standards. Massively high levels of AIDS. Massively high levels of domrstic violence. Gender inequality. Political unrest. Not sure how you equate recognition of that with 'cultural superiority'. That is something I'd more associate with a paternal pat on the head, and a suggestion that bad things happen to people who don't pray hard enough.

Go order another venti soy mochaccino. The world needs your sage wisdom, naysaying all the love and hope that undeniably exists.

Wow.

 

[Grumpuss]

Why what is impossible?

You praying or having a more open mind. Fortunately for you, you're probably wrong.

Prayer is not for me, that's correct. I personally couldn't give two hoots if you pray though, and good luck to whomever else finds peace in that path.
As stated, multiple times, present your opinion as 'self-evident fact' and someone may call you on it. Amazing, I know. If that's whining, you have an amazingly low threshold for being questioned. Which is fair enough. I would too if I made gratuitous claims.

It seems like you care a lot more than two hoots, given the amount of text you've spent naysaying others about it on this thread.

I'm making a straw man argument? Interesting take. I say you can't show a circular argument I've made in this thread in a clear fashion. And given the nature of circular arguments, it should be dead easy. Feel free to dodge or prevaricate on that if you like. Or play the man, even. Doesn't worry me. I neither expect people to agree with me, nor respect them less when they don't.
Baseless claims are a slightly different matter.

You don't believe because it's not clear enough because prayer doesn't work because you don't believe. Etc.

Seems unlikely they all were. Seems certain that some were. But then, they were Muslims, so maybe it was the wrong God.

I'm sure you bothered to ask before you passed judgment on them.

Exactly. The only good guys here were the Serbian death squads.

Or the Croatian ones. Or the Bosnian ones.

Yes, the "Bosnians" also engaged in war crimes, under General Dudakovic and others...

Bosnia opens trial of Muslims for war crimes

Most philosophers? MOST philosophers?
Name 3 things most philosophers agree on. Doesn't even have to be on topic.
'Most philosophers...'

I only required 1 thing, because that was the point: conscious, intelligent thought is better than not.

Incidentally, in terms of mother's not deciding life sucks when they lose their infants;

Mother's risk of an early death soars by 133% following loss of a child | Daily Mail Online

You win the goalpost-moving competition. Congratulations.

I've lived in remote areas, seen tribal warfare first hand. Whatever caused him to form the views he has, they are not the ones appearing to downplay the plight of those less fortunate globally.

What was your point again? Something elitist?

There is happiness, you are right. And where I lived was overwhelmingly Christian, so God was there too. But life was also brutal. High crime, particularly rape. Poor hygiene. High infant mortality. Low education standards. Massively high levels of AIDS. Massively high levels of domrstic violence. Gender inequality. Political unrest. Not sure how you equate recognition of that with 'cultural superiority'. That is something I'd more associate with a paternal pat on the head, and a suggestion that bad things happen to people who don't pray hard enough.

And yet- people prayed and were happy. But from your 40,000 ft view (or whatever- 2 week stay), you unilaterally decided that they were miserable and pathetic. Because they couldn't eat Big Macs or fire up a Playstation or have access to Advil on-demand.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Quite the assumption. But no, I don't believe God punishes for sins. That's some weird, Pat Robertson-like logic.

I'm not wanting a fight with you Grumpuss, the tone of this thread is at squabbling level already, it is just curiosity. What do you mean by that statement? The bible is full of examples of the deity punishing sin, if you believe in a literal interpretation of your holy book, the deity wiped out the entire population of the planet (except for Noah and his family), because they were too sinful for his palate. A small selection of other examples:
Numbers 11:1-3
Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the LORD; and when the LORD heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. The people therefore cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the LORD and the fire died out. So the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the LORD burned among them.

2 Samuel 6:6-8
But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God. David became angry because of the LORD'S outburst against Uzzah, and that place is called Perez-uzzah to this day.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Are you saying the deity no longer punishes sinful activity or are you saying it keeps the punishment in reserve until a person dies? Or are you a Universalist? If it is the third option I've got to admit to being surprised!

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

There are many cases where people have prayed for something and it happened. There are also many cases where people prayed for something and it did not happen. How can you prove that prayer made any difference.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

No I haven't, I can't, because I believe He does exist.

Funny thing, isn't it, that I contemplate BOTH sides - what things mean if God does exist, versus what they mean if He doesn't, yet you contemplate only one side.

The Bible says we are to pray ALL the time, that doesn't mean to pray and ask God to do everything for us, it says to pray at all times with the Word of God. We are to speak the Word of God over our circumstances!

Sorry I cut out a lot of your post - I wouldn't say I am able to give much credence to what The Bible says. I also don't know why you tell me about not praying to God to do everything for us. I don't pray to God at all. Not having any belief means I find it a completely useless endeavor. I suppose you might have known that, though, had ever bothered to contemplate what it might mean if God does not exist... so I guess I can't expect you not to try and preach at me and quote me scripture.

 

[DavidFirth]

There are many cases where people have prayed for something and it happened. There are also many cases where people prayed for something and it did not happen. How can you prove that prayer made any difference.

Can you prove that it Didn't? Touche.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It's well-recognized that there are many things in our collective universe that cannot be adequately explained by science.

Whether or not you follow an organized religion and have been blessed with the feeling of God's love, you will know that experience of deep meaning and understanding upon witnessing a birth or seeing a perfect sunrise/sunset.

Communing with God provides a special connection to our universe and eliminating the awful feelings of confusion and loneliness that the lost and soulless are cursed with. There is ample evidence that people who pray regularly live longer, are happier and are more free from demon curses of drug abuse and sexual perversion.

Behold the recent story of a pastor brought back from the brink of certain death, only by the prayer of those around the world that loved her:

Miracle Healing, Released by the Power of Prayer, Touches Comatose Pastor on the Verge of Death

Prayer is a literal super-power that can heal wounds, save lives and reverse fortune. When you pray, do you expect that God will hear your prayers and answer them in His own way, or do you do so, "just in case"? If you used to pray, but have stopped later in life, do you make the distinction between praying super-powers for yourself and others versus fantasy superpowers such as Spider-man or Aquaman possess? To me, it is wondrous that we have such a tool at our disposal, yet sad that we do not make more frequent use of it; if more people prayed regularly, there would be less war, famine, deviance and strife afflicting our beautiful world.

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that prayer has ever actually worked. I can 'pray' that I get a job I've applied for and when I end up getting it conclude that God answered my 'prayer'. But of course that doesn't rule out the possibility that I might have just been the most qualified person to apply and would have gotten the job whether I 'prayed' or not.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Funny thing, isn't it, that I contemplate BOTH sides - what things mean if God does exist, versus what they mean if He doesn't, yet you contemplate only one side.

Sorry I cut out a lot of your post - I wouldn't say I am able to give much credence to what The Bible says. I also don't know why you tell me about not praying to God to do everything for us. I don't pray to God at all. Not having any belief means I find it a completely useless endeavor.

I can understand that you would "contemplate both sides" because you're not a believer, why would I, I believe God does exist? Why would I want to contemplate what things mean if He didn't exist? That would be questioning my faith, and I don't question my faith!

 

[Grumpuss]

I'm not wanting a fight with you Grumpuss, the tone of this thread is at squabbling level already, it is just curiosity. What do you mean by that statement? The bible is full of examples of the deity punishing sin, if you believe in a literal interpretation of your holy book, the deity wiped out the entire population of the planet (except for Noah and his family), because they were too sinful for his palate. A small selection of other examples:
Numbers 11:1-3
Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the LORD; and when the LORD heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. The people therefore cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the LORD and the fire died out. So the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the LORD burned among them.

2 Samuel 6:6-8
But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God. David became angry because of the LORD'S outburst against Uzzah, and that place is called Perez-uzzah to this day.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Are you saying the deity no longer punishes sinful activity or are you saying it keeps the punishment in reserve until a person dies? Or are you a Universalist? If it is the third option I've got to admit to being surprised!

Did I ever say I believe in a literal translation? I find it curious that people are quick to assume all Christians are Young Earth Creationists or believe in a strict literal translation. There are as many variants of Christian belief of the Bible, as there are different types of atheist/agnostic.

There's a theory that the whole of the Book of Esther is just an allegory and not based at all on anyone whoever lived. Does that invalidate the message?