Postmodernism is alive, very influential, very destructive, and very opposed to critical thinking

[icehorse]

I must confess, I thought about a lot of ways to get into this area, and I’m not sure this is the best approach but…

First off, I’m not talking about art or architecture, at least not primarily. I’m talking about postmodern philosophy.

The first time I can recall hearing about how postmodern philosophy is alive and destructive was when I started listening to Jordan Peterson deal with Canadian bill C-16. We’ve debated this bill several times on this forum, and while I don’t want to totally detour back into the issues with this bill, I will say that it’s gone from being a proposal to being a law. argh. And it’s not a stretch to see it being used to compel speech. Let that rattle around in your brain - compelled speech.

Anyway, Peterson often traces a lot of current extremism back to postmodern philosophy and how it’s impacted our universities and our culture. At first I thought this was a stretch, but then I heard the same idea from several other sources.

So, while some of these connections might be coincidence, here is a list of (possible), connections between postmodern philosophy and some modern ills:

- moral relativism
- multi-culturalism / western guilt
- the extreme right, e.g. “alternate facts”, climate change denial, environmental protection denial, disregard for education and infrastructure
- the extreme left, e.g. intersectionality, identity politics, equality of outcome
- disregard for expertise / disregard for critical thinking in general
- the right not to be offended trumping (ouch), freedom of speech
- micro-aggressions and the disregard for intentions
- trigger warnings and safe spaces
- the rise of foundation-free “X studies” majors (gender studies, black studies and so on)
- the decline of the humanities

and so on.

So, I don’t think that bad actors like trump or trigger-warning activists would identify as postmodernists. But I’m thinking more and more that their thinking (such as it is), has been influenced by postmodernism.

Some citations:

How French “Intellectuals” Ruined the West: Postmodernism and Its Impact, Explained - Areo

The Unfortunate Fallout of Campus Postmodernism

The Humanities Dilemma, Postmodernism and Critical Thinking by Robert E. Martin :: SSRN

 

[Augustus]

So, while some of these connections might be coincidence, here is a list of (possible), connections between postmodern philosophy and some modern ills:


- multi-culturalism / western guilt
- the extreme left, e.g. intersectionality, identity politics, equality of outcome
- the right not to be offended trumping (ouch), freedom of speech
- micro-aggressions and the disregard for intentions
- trigger warnings and safe spaces
- the rise of foundation-free “X studies” majors (gender studies, black studies and so on)

A lot of this would probably fall more neatly into the realm of cultural studies. Many involved in cultural studies could also be described as postmodernist but it's slightly reductionist to consider all of these issues specifically products of postmodernism.

Many of the concepts are grounded in Marxist ideas relating to ideological hegemony and and how the powerful maintain control over the proletariat.

Many of these ideas were perfectly correct (can be easily isolated from the flawed Marxist theories of governance) and formed a basis for the development of Critical Theory (which again can be valuable) and later cultural studies (again a mixed bag).

The development of postmodernism was concurrent with much of these, but not necessarily a product of it (although there was some overlap).

Tl:dr: Some might be related to PM, and other are really more jumping the shark based on legitimate analytical philosophies.

disregard for expertise

This one is a bit different.

There is no disregard for expertise, what exists is a rejection of the claim of expertise. People aren't anti-expert they are anti-pseudoexpert.

'Experts' are publicly wrong about so many things that people have lost faith in them. So the promotion of pseudo experts has damaged the credibility of all purported experts. When differentiating the real from the pseudo expert becomes to effortful for most people, they go with what they want.

So, I don’t think that bad actors like trump ... has been influenced by postmodernism.

Probably more of a reaction to many of the things you mention.

 

[icehorse]

There is no disregard for expertise, what exists is a rejection of the claim of expertise. People aren't anti-expert they are anti-pseudoexpert.

I'm sure that some of that is going on. But specifically, it strikes me that "intersectionality" stands in pretty direct opposition to expertise. The idea being that the unique, "lived experience" opinion of an unqualified individual should take precedence over what critical thinking and expertise can tell us.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm sure that some of that is going on. But specifically, it strikes me that "intersectionality" stands in pretty direct opposition to expertise. The idea being that the unique, "lived experience" opinion of an unqualified individual should take precedence over what critical thinking and expertise can tell us.

And the qualified sociologists and legal professors who talk about intersectionality as a phenomenon within their expertise?
Oh right we are invalidating 'X studies' as categorically destructive for no agenda reason at all, I'm sure.

 

[Augustus]

I'm sure that some of that is going on. But specifically, it strikes me that "intersectionality" stands in pretty direct opposition to expertise. The idea being that the unique, "lived experience" opinion of an unqualified individual should take precedence over what critical thinking and expertise can tell us.

I don't see the link between intersectionality and the much broader question of expertise. Intersectionality doesn't seem well represented by what you said.

Can you expand on your thoughts about the connection between the 2 please?

 

[icehorse]

Oh right we are invalidating 'X studies' as categorically destructive for no agenda reason at all, I'm sure.

Please stop putting words in my mouth - I would really value a more thoughtful response from you.

 

[shunyadragon]

I must confess, I thought about a lot of ways to get into this area, and I’m not sure this is the best approach but…

First off, I’m not talking about art or architecture, at least not primarily. I’m talking about postmodern philosophy.

The first time I can recall hearing about how postmodern philosophy is alive and destructive was when I started listening to Jordan Peterson deal with Canadian bill C-16. We’ve debated this bill several times on this forum, and while I don’t want to totally detour back into the issues with this bill, I will say that it’s gone from being a proposal to being a law. argh. And it’s not a stretch to see it being used to compel speech. Let that rattle around in your brain - compelled speech.

Anyway, Peterson often traces a lot of current extremism back to postmodern philosophy and how it’s impacted our universities and our culture. At first I thought this was a stretch, but then I heard the same idea from several other sources.

So, while some of these connections might be coincidence, here is a list of (possible), connections between postmodern philosophy and some modern ills:

- moral relativism
- multi-culturalism / western guilt
- the extreme right, e.g. “alternate facts”, climate change denial, environmental protection denial, disregard for education and infrastructure
- the extreme left, e.g. intersectionality, identity politics, equality of outcome
- disregard for expertise / disregard for critical thinking in general
- the right not to be offended trumping (ouch), freedom of speech
- micro-aggressions and the disregard for intentions
- trigger warnings and safe spaces
- the rise of foundation-free “X studies” majors (gender studies, black studies and so on)
- the decline of the humanities

and so on.

So, I don’t think that bad actors like trump or trigger-warning activists would identify as postmodernists. But I’m thinking more and more that their thinking (such as it is), has been influenced by postmodernism.

Some citations:

How French “Intellectuals” Ruined the West: Postmodernism and Its Impact, Explained - Areo

The Unfortunate Fallout of Campus Postmodernism

The Humanities Dilemma, Postmodernism and Critical Thinking by Robert E. Martin :: SSRN

This a shotgun approach of scapegoats that likely nobody is guilty of.

Moral relativism and multi-culturalism are odd anachronisms used as stones to throw at others that do not tow the old traditional lines of moral black and white and separation of the claim of one culture from the another, and not meaningful.

Your reference makes too much of a broad generalization of 'post modernism' as the 'boggy man' and its supposed impact on society. It partially cites out of context the reference in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. You need to read the whole reference in context.

Postmodernism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[icehorse]

I don't see the link between intersectionality and the much broader question of expertise. Intersectionality doesn't seem well represented by what you said.

Can you expand on your thoughts about the connection between the 2 please?

If you read this article:

Intersectionality - Wikipedia

It seems to me that the premise is that intersectionality is too dynamic and too based on individual subjective narratives to be an idea one can become an expert in. The premise is that the individual is the only true source of information.

 

[icehorse]

This a shotgun approach of scapegoats that likely nobody is guilty of.

Did you even skim any of the links?

Moral relativism and multi-culturalism are odd anachronisms used as stones to throw at others that do not tow the old traditional lines of moral black and white and separation of the claim of one culture from the another, and not meaningful.

Are you paying any attention at all to Europe's immigration dilemma and the premises upon which Europe's pro-immigration leaders are basing their policies?

 

[Augustus]

If you read this article:

Intersectionality - Wikipedia

It seems to me that the premise is that intersectionality is too dynamic and too based on individual subjective narratives to be an idea one can become an expert in. The premise is that the individual is the only true source of information.

I think you have a distorted view of intersectionality and significantly overstate its influence outside of certain left wing circles.

There is a terrible academic trend called autoethnography though, but again it is limited in its broader influence.

 

[shunyadragon]

Did you even skim any of the links?

I know the links! I edited the post, please read again.

Are you paying any attention at all to Europe's immigration dilemma and the premises upon which Europe's pro-immigration leaders are basing their policies?

This remains an attempt to 'scapegoat' the 'boggy man' post modernism as responsible for the problems of our society, which is more related to the historical racism and ethnic superiority, religious exclusiveness and isolationist views on all sides, history of colonialism coming back to haunt the west.

Post modernism is not a 'cause,' but a movement in art and literature that is more a product of greater changes going on in our world that ancient isolationist worldviews cannot deal with.

 

[icehorse]

I think you have a distorted view of intersectionality and significantly overstate its influence outside of certain left wing circles.

There is a terrible academic trend called autoethnography though, but again it is limited in its broader influence.

Well remember that in the OP, intersectionality was only one in a long list.

Next, can you share your understanding of intersectionality?

 

[shunyadragon]

The problem of the 'disregard and rejection of expertise' is more a product of the ancient religious worldviews that are distinct part of the violence and conflicts in the contemporary world.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Please stop putting words in my mouth - I would really value a more thoughtful response from you.

You've said twice now that it's not a valid study, either as a 'something nobody can be an expert in' or because the study is a 'foundationless modern ill.' Then complain about expertise being invalidated, which you just did. These are your words.

This is like saying nobody can be an expert in evolution because its too dynamic. Yes, it's a dynamic study, and you won't be able to cover all aspects of it under a single field, but that doesn't mean it's invalid.
Intersectionality is about studying social power dynamics. Trying to understand why an atheist might have a harder time getting into a high powered job is part of that study. As is whether it might be harder if they were black, easier of they're Asian, harder if they'e a woman, and whether other locational, vocational and political dynamics effect that and why.

There is plenty of data collection to be done, and some of that data will be interviewed experience, just like all of sociology. But there's also psychology, political science and other academic information that makes it pretty damn foundational, if very dynamic. I find most criticisms of it, like with evolution, are either reductive (X environment will always produce y traits/the experience and social success of x demographic will be the same) or misrepresentational (evolution means social Darwinism means survival of the fittest/intersectionality means social positions like affirmative action.)

 

[Sunstone]

I see postmodernism as, among other things, a reactionary movement against modernity. I realize that some would argue it is an extension of modernity -- and perhaps in some way that might be true -- but in it's rejection of the European Enlightenment's "epistemic democracy" and its promotion of "epistemic relativity" it stands clearly opposed to modernity. The same is true in postmodernism's rejection of humanism and liberalism, and in some other things it rejects.

In it's rejection of modernity, it resembles the fundamentalisms that have infected at least four of the world's great religions. Fundamentalisms, too, are at their core rejections of modernity.

Something that needs to be recognized is that almost every ideology -- including postmodernism -- has at least a bit of truth to it. That truth is often the bait that attracts people to biting on the cold hook of the ideology. Postmodernism has its truths, which makes any attempt to ameliorate its negative effects that much more difficult.

I see postmodernism as tremendously destructive of the "soft sciences", and a danger to democracy. Anything that rejects epistemic democracy undermines not only the sciences, but also political democracy.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well remember that in the OP, intersectionality was only one in a long list.

Next, can you share your understanding of intersectionality?

From: intersectionality define - Google Search
in·ter·sec·tion·al·i·ty noun

1. the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.
   "through an awareness of intersectionality, we can better acknowledge and ground the differences among us"

Again the problem if 'intersectionality,' is not product of a superficial art and literature philosophy such as 'post modernism' which is a reaction to modernism. The problem of intersectionality is the ancient religious world views anchored in ancient paradigms that believe in their superiority, exclusiveness and separation from those who believe differently.

 

[icehorse]

Post modernism is not a 'cause,' but a movement in art and literature that is more a product of greater changes going on in our world that ancient isolationist worldviews cannot deal with.

As I said in the OP, postmodernism IS an idea in art - we're agreed on this much. But the OP was SPECIFICALLY concerning that additional aspect of postmodernism that addresses philosophy.

This remains an attempt to 'scapegoat' the 'boggy man' post modernism as responsible for the problems of our society, which is more related to the historical racism and ethnic superiority, religious exclusiveness and isolationist views on all sides, history of colonialism coming back to haunt the west.

While I don't think boogey man is a useful criticism (because we could say that about criticisms in general), I don think you've made a plausible argument:

First, I'm not laying all the blame at the foot of postmodernism, I'm suggesting that it's one (important) source of many.

As for the rest - well now we've got an actual debate on our hands! Hooray! So let's take one example (feel free to pick on others), multiculturalism. Let's also say for the sake of discussion, that historically, Western secular society has been guilty of colonialism and racism and such. Well first, so have all of today's competing major societal approaches. Second, do you have any examples of approaches that are superior to western secularism? For the record, western secularism has a lot of problems. But I think it's by far the best system we've cooked up so far.

I think postmodernism was a major influence on the rise of the idea that all cultures are equally valid.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Firstly, Jordan Peterson is a charlatan who knows almost nothing about the subjects he talks about, particularly philosophy, and preys on vulnerable young people who don't know what to do in life by feeding them the same kind of rhetoric people used to go to evangelical pastors for. He makes ridiculous amounts of money for it.

His portrayal of bill C-16, the issue that made him famous, was a completely false. All C-16 would do is prevent discrimination against people based on "gender identity", and add "gender identity" and "gender expression" to a list of identifiable groups targeted for genocide, making killing people based on "gender identity" an act of genocide (or attempted genocide). It had nothing to do with "hate speech", and Peterson was either lying or severely deluded about what was in the bill when he made the claims that he did.

Secondly, Marx was the poster child of modernist philosophy. "Marxism" is absolutely not postmodern, and people claiming that it is, again, don't know what they're talking about. "Modernism" might be summarized by the sentiment that history is moving in a particular direction -- a utopia, an apocalypse -- while postmodernism is a sort of reaction against modernism; the recognition that there is no grand underlying truth to the world or any particular movement of history other than what people make it, that a variety of competing perspectives exist that for the most part can't be determined to be particularly more valid than others, etc.

A relevant comic.

 

[Sunstone]

Postmodernism to some significant extent seems rooted in the ancient human tendency to reject what is demonstrably true in favor of pretending that something is true because it jives with our moral sentiments.

 

[Sunstone]

....while postmodernism is a sort of reaction against modernism; the recognition that there is no grand underlying truth to the world or any particular movement of history other than what people make it, that a variety of competing perspectives exist that for the most part can't be determined to be particularly more valid than others, etc.

Would you include the Theory of Gravity, the Theory of Germs, and the Theory of Evolution in your "variety of competing perspectives", none of which can be determined to be more valid than others? Or are you only criticizing here the notion of progress as an attribute of nature?