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Positive Manipulation

Discussion in 'Journals' started by SigurdReginson, Mar 3, 2021.

  1. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    This topic isn't really meant in much of a serious capacity, but I do find myself in a contemplative mood.

    You see, I've been subject to a lot of emotional manipulation in my life. It's very effective on me... I'm someone that cares a lot about people, and just about anyone I care about can take advantage of that with me if they try.

    I've gotten better about identifying when that happens, and I stop it cold when I do notice it. That said, it's still difficult for me to realize when it's happening right away.

    I can think of plenty of times when it's been used to negatively influence someone, but can it be used in a positive way?

    I don't know if I can ever think of a time when it's ok to ever emotionally manipulate someone. I mean, there are times when we appeal to someone's heart on issues, but is that really the same thing? Is expressing a strong emotion about something you care about in hopes of convincing someone to reconsider the way they feel about something a form of emotional manipulation?
     
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  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    To me, the word "manipulation" means action for a selfish end. I think it's possible to look at the result and see it as positive but at the back of the result is the feeling that *I* did good.

    The ideal to me is to do what we think is the right action without the ego gratification that usually is there but to me it's a very rare one who can do that. Some of us recognize it as a goal to work toward.
     
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  3. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Scientology, we were taught emotional manipulation. We had demonstrations of it.

    They have something called a tone chart.

    [​IMG]

    So you can manipulate a person's tone level by feigning the level above or below. You could basically pull a person up through each tone level by being at the tone slightly above. Can't be too far above or else the person won't be able to connect to you.

    You can also pull a person down through the tone level by doing the opposite. For example, if they are in blame, you feign discouragement. They become discouraged. You get angry, they drop to anger. etc...

    However worry is actually a higher tone than blame. So you act worried, they become worried. You then feign doubt, they become doubtful. Then disappointment, overwhelment, frustration and pessimism. So using this chart you can bring someone from blaming others to a state of hopefulness/optimism.

    Also, everyone has a default tone level. Some folks are usually somewhere around boredom. Others at strong interest most of the time.

    I find it generally works. Tone levels are infectious. You can, if you can feign the right tone level yourself drive someone else's tone level up or down.
     
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  4. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Incredibly fascinating. I only know about scientology what I've seen via documentaries and such. Are you still practicing?
     
  5. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    And why can you manipulate someone else's tone level and not be manipulated by their tone level?
     
  6. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    If this is a discussion about 'manipulation' as that very common -- and almost always morally obscene to one degree or another -- form of persuasion that at its core always involves some lying in order to do its magic, then no.

    Reread the sentence if necessary to understand why. Just please feel no need to be embarrassed if you didn't 'get it' the first time.

    Honestly, that's shaming yourself for being human. Humans have no ability (that is not rare beyond being something anyone count on) that can be found in the neurosciences than to more quickly process information beyond the level of a bumper sticker or familiar situation unless they take it in as small bites, then chew on it for up to about 2 1/2 minutes at most.

    Anything much outside that range is going to get distorted somehow in how humans will understand what they are experiencing. It's why the military always drills their people. No other way to act fast than to see fast which kind of situation you are in, then execute a routine response that comes close to being a reaction. They even train their people to notice moments when decisions might likely need to be made.

    Someone shaming for your human nature without you provoking them is to universal human nature honest grounds for an attack launched in self-defense against any arrogant fool who intentionally does it to you as more than a joke that he or she can expect you yourself to see the humor in it. And that attack would be totally socially accepted -- and expected -- behavior in the hunting/gathering groups your own ancestors lived in while they were evolving refinements to your design as a animal tailored to live in groups just like theirs.



    If you feel in any way other than I don't understand the science right, and feel as you do because you see science-based flaws in my understanding, then please tell me about. That's bad news I need here.

    But if you have any other reason at -- including perfectly logical ones -- then say them if you must, but you are not on topic with me any way. That is, not in any way that I can understand as some variation on the likelihood that you have culturally assimilated ideas about human nature that the Sumerians might find they could in some reasonable way incorporate into their own ideas of a 'civilized human versus a wild natural human.'

    That is, according to The Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is where you will find the earliest civilization's earliest take on the differences between those culturally distinct humans, in concepts the Sumerians themselves used to get a take on what their becoming civilized meant to them. If I have it how they thought about becoming civilized, they it was good, but not all good. Not an ideal lifestyle for humans.

    There is not a chance I've even gotten into this attitude before without first becoming thoroughly convinced I am facing an actual threat to oppose it somehow along a line of realism.




    If it helps to make amends for something I said, maybe check out the first to third chapters for the passages that will be in Latin if you still can get hold of a translation published earlier than most any of them were around 1970. In the end, those passages always mark where some editor decided some group of his culture's outsiders were scandalous about how openly they would talk about their sex lives.


    Bluntly, if your first response to this post was a knee-jerk rejection, then you are human. Basic human nature in action. Defending, repelling something perceived as disturbingly outside or alien. Intellectual version of it.

    My guess is that instinctual response in not really a knee-jerk. A knee-jerk is a reflex. It never varies from being an inborn, straight-forward reaction to a narrow range of provocations. This is so much more like an Lorentzian instinct, evolved as a functional way to learn by trial and error how best protect the individual and the individual's group.

    Universal instinct native to at least almost all animals with a central nervous system, and analogous to the zillion defensive reflexes native to plants and Tucker Carlson when jerking in response to his own image of socialism that he would love to share with everyone in his audience because he sees it as a threat to himself.

    I keep forgetting to call in Tucker's name to the three old ladies who like to do their knitting in the front lobby of the International Socialist Revolutionary Planning Committee. They're the girls who code people's name into the Bernie Sander's style mittens we pass along to the Social Democrats for decoding, then entering into the data-banks of the American NSA for our guillotine list. Of course, the NSA is the American branch of the Soviet Communist Party in American. Stalin himself founded the branch, which is why his corpse is stored in Langley Virginia. It's stored there awaiting for the right moment to entomb it after the Revolution. That would be in the US Capitol Building Lobby and for display to the masses.



    (Psst! I'm on a RF Staff covet mission to get me featured for weeks on Tucker's Hours of Power cablecasts. Yup! It's once again time to get the word out for our annual RF membership drive! Only this year, we've humanly ramped down the campaign in respect of the stress people are already feeling. I'm hoping Biden gets a handle on the monster. It's beginning to affect the Staff's morale, what with all this ramping down we've been doing. No one even wants to undress for the Friday Night Orgies anymore. We just all sit in a circle and try to carry on a conversation in the hope of making it last until the weeping starts from hearing too many of @Debater Slayers sorrowful heavy metal love songs. Along with watching @SalixIncendium repeatedly undress to his nude in order for him to change into his latest idea of a genuinely pulled-together fashion ensemble. @Left Coast is always the one who leads us into group weeping by himself starting it up. That's because we glue his eyelids open in order to force him to gaze at Salix. Well, that's the typically well-reasoned consensus Staff decision on how we should go about it to best obtain catharsis. It's cruel on the nerves, but it works. It never ever was this dispirited before in Modland, excepting for a few short months immediately following my elevation to an administrator. But even that didn't last past when we discovered the value of binge wine drinking as a socially acceptable therapy.)



    I am saying all this stuff because I can't see 1/6 in any other way than to see it in so many keys ways as one person taking advantage of another person because the puppet master could use that person's own misleading ideas about his or her human nature as strings to make the human he fooled dance to his own bidding.

    I saw in 1/6 what could today be accomplished by advancements in the efficacy of the science-driven lying of the propaganda industry. The leading founder in America spent years publicly calling it 'propaganda' until he thought it was better to label it 'Public Relations'.

    His moral justification for manipulative lying is still the core of any publicly announced industry variation. He was lying to people for the people's own good, since common people don't know what's good enough for them well enough. That is Plato's morality for his philosopher-kings, the rulers of his Republic.

    Ayn Rand's take on the leaders of capitalist societies is one of today's most influential and well defended variations. The leaders are her 'makers'. One of her common terms for Plato's philosopher-kings. If you logically plug in 'self-earned wealth' -- however you will define that -- into Plato's concept of morality, then you have Ayn Rand's reasoning for her version of the ideology. Her 'takers' are the citizens. In that way especially, Rand was intellectually honest in how she used metaphors.

    To me, that spin on 'citizenship' is decisive.

    It's easy to see those ideologies as treating adults like they were children who are not yet responsible enough to decide when they must go to bed in order to next day get off in time to start their school class by deadline -- and according to a clock owned by someone besides them.

    I do not count that manner of treating citizens as in line with how an authentic representative of the citizens would treat the citizens of any democracy in terms of their being to him or her responsible, self-governing adults.

    I count 1/6 as one of Edward Bernay's core motivational visions come true -- how to use propaganda as a tool for philosopher-kings to control the citizens for a facade democracy in order that the wisdom of the kings will cause the citizens to flourish. Only on 1/6, it was the king who flourished, not the citizens.

    To me, that's almost the definition of 'personally concerning'. That's when I do whatever I am able to do about it, if I haven't done that sooner, and even if no one is watching or listening. Jesus spoke of casting grain, thinking some seeds might sprout. Mohamed spoke of working on to plant trees even as the Apocalypse is arriving. Same attitude in Zen. Basic bushio, the way of the warrior. Must be some kind of instinctual response coded into our DNA.

    The attitude I'm in has come on me in a way recognizable to me as an instinctive response that seems to function to align my knowledge and thinking in order to oppose a threat along lines of realism. It's curious how emotionless it is.

    It's like wading forward through the heat, dragging a hose line, to attack a fire. The alignment that comes over you then.
     
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  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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  8. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    I agree with the others who have made the point that manipulation is inherently wrong. The word itself implies that the other party is being treated like a puppet, and not having his or her independence of action respected. There is a danger in thinking that the end justifies the means.

    But I think, too, that it can be easy to attach the label of manipulation to conduct that may not be really intended as manipulative. That way lies paranoia and withdrawal from relationships.
     
  9. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Yes, but is the intention "good" or could be at least benign?
     
  10. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Hmmm true... What if you try to elevate the mood of someone you care about, though? Could that be positive emotional manipulation?
     
  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If you are genuine then you are just expressing how you feel.
     
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  12. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Yes I think you could call it that. I suppose it is something we all naturally do on a regular basis, but the word "manipulation" suggests something Machiavellian.
     
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  13. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Hah! You are absolutely right. :D When you try to push the boundaries of what well known terms are, you can bend anything to incorporate any concept under that umbrella... But there are already terms used to describe those things without the umbrella.

    Take for instance, take the concept of cooking. I mean... Is making top ramen cooking? microwaving a meal? What about rehydrating a ready to eat meal with hot water? If that's the case, what about assembling a salad? Could then peeling a carrot then be "cooking?" Maybe just picking a berry off of a bush? At some point it's no longer cooking. Sure, you could conflate "cooking" to mean "food preparation," but that's already a term used in kitchens with a very specific meaning.

    You could bend the term "manipulation" to mean something it isn't, but at that point it just all falls apart, or requires some serious mental gymnastics to keep together...

    Manipulation is a well established term used to describe exploiting someone's emotions. The key there is exploitating. There's nothing positive about that. Period.
     
  14. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    No, I definitely agree! There's no manipulation going on there. That's conviction. :)
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Hi SigurdReginson,

    For me it has been quite a struggle to discover what was happening, but now I got it figured out a little; still hard work to change my usual, natural friendly way of dealing with people. It all boils down (in my case), that people don't take me serious, don't listen when I say "STOP". I needed to learn to say STOP and cancel friendship when they don't take me serious

    Just 1 hour ago, I was thinking "would others have experienced that if you tell the other, please don't do that again, that they just keep on doing it".

    E.g. I asked a friend "please stop sending me all these conspiracy links" ... instead of saying "okay, I'll stop", immediately he send another one. That was on WhatsApp, so immediately I blocked him (first time, I think, I blocked a man on WhatsApp). Then he send a link to my Yahoo Mail account, immediately I blocked that one too (definitely the first time I needed to do block someone from my mail), then he send a link to another old mail account of me (of which I told him three times to not use that anymore). Of course I blocked that one too. I think he has no more ways to contact me now.

    In the past I kept repeating the same "please don't do that", because I thought they just forgot, but this time it was so obviously, that he did not forget, but just was doing this on purpose. I can not imagine why people are so disrespectful; they must be really sick in their mind.

    Note: He is really into QAnon and pro Trump, and he really cares and hopes to convince me to feel the same way. BUT this kind of manipulation is definitely wrong, even if he strongly believes in it, because he does not listen to me AND does not STOP when I say STOP. He behaves like a deaf and blind obsessed person, who can't take NO for an answer. He can not accept that other people don't share his beliefs. He used to be Christian, but stopped it like 40 years ago, but obviously, he did not drop his evangelizing behavior .
     
    #15 stvdv, Mar 4, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
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  16. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Oof... That's obnoxious.

    Yah... It sounds like your "friend" is a very disrespectful individual. Stop means stop. Honestly, cutting manipulative people out of your life can be hard; especially if they have been manipulating you for a while (like in my case). It has to be done, though...

    It's very parasitic behavior. It will hold you back, if you let it.
     
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  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I am a very rational person, and I always want to do what is right, and not hurt others, hence I probably think that others do the same, but some people are the opposite. Being rational, and expecting others to be rational, I thought I can explain, and they will see it too. My view about people was too optimistic.

    I found out that if 1 warning does not change them, it's no use to warn twice. And makes sense. IF someone does not listen to STOP the first time, that proofs he is arrogant, disrespectful, not listening, full of himself only. So, no use and even harmful to keep as a friend. He was never a friend to start with. For me it was hard to learn this, because my father was like that, and I always tried hard to please him, and more and more felt that I was not good enough. But that is finished now. I can finally say NO, and stick to it. I rather be alone and happy, then having manipulating people around me.
     
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  18. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    We generally are. However, like an actor, you practice feigning the necessary emotion. Can you act angry, even though you are not?
     
  19. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    I'm a very bad liar and thus actor. And I have an aversion against manipulation. I try not to and I try even harder not to be manipulated.
     
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  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Understood. However, if someone is obviously trying to manipulate you is it fair to manipulate them back?

    My wife and son, political opposites, get into heated arguments. Really get angry at each other. Sometimes I do manipulate the situation to defuse it. No malis towards either intended. My son tends to recognize it when I do so but at the same time appreciates it.
     
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