Pornography. What's wrong with it?

[McBell]

watching porn, like anything else, is unhealthy if it's done excessively....

Or if the use of porn is interfereing with your life...
or if the use of porn is causing relationship issues..
or if the use of porn....


What far to many people fail to address are the words "USE OF"

Seems to me there is far to much personification of porn in this thread to make for an honest discussion...

 

[Nooj]

I will pray for you.

Who do you pray to? Is there a porn goddess somewhere?

The 90s were a bit too early for me. I only started watching porn on the internet. It's interesting to compare the experiences of people who watched porn on VHS or had porno mags vs people like me who have had virtually limitless porn at our fingertips.

I can see the opposite argument though. Not everyone (including I) want to watch a movie that's an hour long and only has 20 min sex. Porn is pretty simple stuff, it's sex. Asking for plot in a 5 minute video is stupid.

 

[Darkness]

What....you want the talent to work for free?
(Just so your porn is cheaper, eh?)

All in service of our glorious, Communist state.

REALLY!!! Assuming you're not making a wry jest, care to support this claim?

• the fetishism towards young girls (to a lesser extent, young boys)

• the objectification of men by the limiting of male sexuality to penis (in heterosexual porn)

• the denigration of girls and women as "*******" and sexuality as a way to punish those who "deserve it"
  • the prolific reinforcement of ethnic/racial stereotypes
  
  

  And the nature of prostitution is problematic because?

  
  Certain parts of our social life should not be allowed to operate on a market-basis. It is problematic, because the majority of people who prostitute themselves are either poor (in the prostitution "paradise" of Amsterdam, 90% are foreign) or face psychological problems. Just as I do not accept the argument that because some participants might get fulfillment and happiness out of being a gladiator it should be permitted, I do not accept the same argument for prostitution.
  
  

  You talkin' oral (top) verses genital (bottom)sex here?

  
  No.
  
  
  

  I can usually see exploitation when it occurs, but this isn't one of them. Who do you see exploiting whom?

  
  Capitalists (i.e. filmmakers) exploit their workers (i.e. porn actors/actresses). Though, at the higher-end of pornography, this relationship may break down considerably.

 

[Skwim]

the fetishism towards young girls (to a lesser extent, young boys)

And how much of pornography is aimed at this fetish, which I assume is bad? Would you expect people to condemn music because a small fraction of it is smutty?

the objectification of men by the limiting of male sexuality to penis (in heterosexual porn)

So what other piece of the male anatomy do you think should be featured in pornography?

• the denigration of girls and women as "*******" and sexuality as a way to punish those who "deserve it"

• Not understanding what you're getting at here.
  
  

  the prolific reinforcement of ethnic/racial stereotypes

  Really??? Care to elaborate, because none of the porno I've seen does this in the least.
  
  

  Certain parts of our social life should not be allowed to operate on a market-basis.

  I assume you're talking about the free market. What would be a better basis, socialized prostitution? Communistic prostitution?
  
  

  It is problematic, because the majority of people who prostitute themselves are either poor (in the prostitution "paradise" of Amsterdam, 90% are foreign) or face psychological problems.

  So you don't think the poor should have a chance to make a living on their own, but what, live off the government dole? And you also don't think those with psychological problems should do the same? You do recognize, don't you, that psychological problems aren't exclusive to those in prostitution, but occur among people in all walks of life.
  
  

  Just as I do not accept the argument that because some participants might get fulfillment and happiness out of being a gladiator it should be permitted, I do not accept the same argument for prostitution.

  And what's wrong with being a gladiator if one wants to?
  
  

  No.

  Thanks for the elaboration.
  
  

  Capitalists (i.e. filmmakers) exploit their workers (i.e. porn actors/actresses). Though, at the higher-end of pornography, this relationship may break down considerably.

  You mean porn actors/actresses aren't fairly paid for their efforts? That they, what, are forced to make sub-minimum wages? That they can't walk away from a proposed shoot if they don't like the terms of prospective employment?

 

[Darkness]

And what's wrong with being a gladiator if one wants to?

I am not going to waste my time discussing prostitution/pornography if you think that individuals should be able to choose to be a gladiator if they want to be. It comes down to a timeless philosophical debate. I am not an individualist. I am a communitarian. The community (society at large) has a right and an obligation to encourage and guide (by law and regulation) the promotion of a positive lifestyle in its member. That is, the community has the right to say that a given person will attain greater happiness if he or she does not throw away his or her life in a gladiatorial ring, than if he or she does. The individual is short-sighted while the community often can take a step back, and offers better guidance than an individual can muster on his or her own. For instance, individuals often get caught in a spiral of depression, which leads to suicide. By making suicide illegal, we recognise that depression is usually a short-medium term emotion/state that can either be fixed with drugs or the proper counseling. Leaving the decision to end one's life solely to the individual increases the chance that happiness will be under utilised in that person, whereas imposing an anti-suicide law helps ensure that happiness will be maximised in the individual.

Further debate is pointless.

 

[Skwim]

I am not going to waste my time discussing prostitution/pornography if you think that individuals should be able to choose to be a gladiator if they want to be. It comes down to a timeless philosophical debate. I am not an individualist. I am a communitarian. The community (society at large) has a right and an obligation to encourage and guide (by law and regulation) the promotion of a positive lifestyle in its member. That is, the community has the right to say that a given person will attain greater happiness if he or she does not throw away his or her life in a gladiatorial ring, than if he or she does.

I suspected this was the connection you were making---the choice to be a gladiator and the choice to be a porno star---both of which had the likely result of throwing one's life away. However, whether you believe it or not,those in porno are not throwing their life away. At least no more so than the poor factory worker who does the same repetitive, boring job of stuffing envelopes or herring cans 40 hours a week from 11 PM to 7AM every night. Moreover, the life of a gladiator is quite unlike that of the porno worker in two very important respects. Most gladiators were slaves, and their life was pretty darn short, two aspects not shared by porno workers. So your comparison is quite inapt.

And that's all I wanted you to see when I asked my leading question. Therefore, if you want to compare the life of a porno worker to that of someone else I suggest you pick a different occupation.

The individual is short-sighted while the community often can take a step back, and offers better guidance than an individual can muster on his or her own. For instance, individuals often get caught in a spiral of depression, which leads to suicide. By making suicide illegal, we recognise that depression is usually a short-medium term emotion/state that can either be fixed with drugs or the proper counseling.

So you think people contemplating suicide have stopped themselves because they remembered that it's against the law, and there would be legal consequences if they went ahead with it? Is THAT what you actually think? Pleease say "No."

Further debate is pointless.

Ah ha, another hit and Ruuuuuun! Gotcha.

 

[Riverwolf]

What's wrong with porn? It's boring.

 

[Acim]

And how much of pornography is aimed at this fetish, which I assume is bad? Would you expect people to condemn music because a small fraction of it is smutty?

Yes. Some people do.

I'll just follow up that this fetish occurs outside of porn. The need to be / feel / look younger is very very prevalent in our societal (western) definitions of beauty. We could completely take porn off the table, and this fetish would be alive and well in pop culture.

So what other piece of the male anatomy do you think should be featured in pornography?

The point being, I think, that it presents unbalanced view (for male psyche) of sexual experience. Or reinforces certain memes that deserve a bit of slaying. As a guy, I find many physical features beautiful in a woman, and sure enough porn has pretty much covered them all (in fact, I'd be surprised if it hasn't). But unless we're talking about guy-on-guy porn, the male genitalia is the only thing of beauty in 90% of 'hetero' porn. Either the guy knows how / when to get it up, keep it up, and do the Peter North thing, or he is 'not really a man.' Which is male perspective on things. And more accurately, shallow male perspective on things.

Other pieces of male anatomy would arguably be all physical features to be emphasized. Likely not in each / every scene, but enough where 'what is good about porn' is celebrating all of male physical attributes.

To be fair, there is some of this around, but to be accurate, it is rare and so outside 'norm' it is I think fair criticism of porn.

Really??? Care to elaborate, because none of the porno I've seen does this in the least.

Have you only seen like 5 porn flicks? I jest. To not think there is porn that purposively reinforces ethnic/racial stereotypes, is to have what I would call rather low awareness of porn. Naive awareness.

At same time, there is more going on here than meets the eye. Kinda like how Hollywood has films that reinforce stereotypes. Some of that is institutional racism, and some of it (a la Spike Lee) is presenting the stereotype to help overcome the prejudice. With (some) porn, I really think that is what is going on. In other cases, it is institutional racism alive and well, being exploited, and earning big bucks from certain segment of population that needs to believe those memes carry over to sexuality.

I assume you're talking about the free market. What would be a better basis, socialized prostitution? Communistic prostitution?

I took this as Darkness saying sex has no basis as something to be bought / sold.

I very much disagree.

And because I disagree, I have to quote what Darkness was conveying.

It is problematic, because the majority of people who prostitute themselves are either poor (in the prostitution "paradise" of Amsterdam, 90% are foreign) or face psychological problems. Just as I do not accept the argument that because some participants might get fulfillment and happiness out of being a gladiator it should be permitted, I do not accept the same argument for prostitution.

On a worldwide scale, the prostitution industry is out of whack, but precisely because of how illegal it is. And this has deeper issues than merely looking at symptoms like poverty and psychological issues. Those are symptoms of an industry that is a) not controlled and b) not honored, but instead downplayed and devalued. Having much to do with why our porn contains the themes that it does. And is akin to why our news sells dirt more so or better than direct, mundane topics (i.e. city hall proceedings).

There are both high end, and professional prostitutes that turn the poor / deranged stereotype upside down. Professionals that not only take pride in their work, but provide quality service with care, intelligence, and desire to be fairly compensated for an act they can perhaps do better than many around, minus the strings that humans attach to those sort of acts. Yes, money is a 'string' attached, but is considerably less price to pay when being honest about other strings we humans attach to 'get some' in this world.

 

[Yeshe Dawa]

However, whether you believe it or not,those in porno are not throwing their life away. At least no more so than the poor factory worker who does the same repetitive, boring job of stuffing envelopes or herring cans 40 hours a week from 11 PM to 7AM every night.

So you think people contemplating suicide have stopped themselves because they remembered that it's against the law, and there would be legal consequences if they went ahead with it? Is THAT what you actually think? Pleease say "No."

Hi Skwim!

This thread is really evolving! I guess I would agree with you about the porn star and the factory worker. If we had a society, maybe a socialist one preferred by Darkness, where the porn star has the same rights and benefits as the factory worker (assuming, of course that in the socialist society the factory worker is doing pretty well) then I don't see why it wouldn't be an okay profession. I think Darkness is saying that in our current system, people drift into those jobs because of other circumstances in their life, not out of an informed, logical career decision.

The suicide law is interesting - as you said, you really can't enforce it once the crime's been comitted. I think the point is that society can use the law to make someone get help. For example, if they manage to get the guy out of the 27 story window without jumping, don't they use that law to arrest him and make him get counseling? That was always my understanding, anyway.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

 

[Nooj]

Really??? Care to elaborate, because none of the porno I've seen does this in the least.

Big black cocks, submissive Asian chicks etc. You need to watch more porn.

So what other piece of the male anatomy do you think should be featured in pornography?

We have more bits and pieces than penises.

 

[Sunstone]

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]"My reaction to porn films is as follows: After the first ten minutes, I want to go home and screw. After the first 20 minutes, I never want to screw again as long as I live."

~Erica Jong, Playboy Magazine, September 1975[/FONT]

 

[idea]

So, what is wrong with pornography, or is there nothing wrong with it?

Pornography: Harmless fun? - by Jamie Turner - Helium

Pornography destroys the most precious thing humankind holds. It destroys love. Pornography destroys families, marriages, individuals, and societies.
Love is based on trust, loyalty, respect, empathy, and endures to the edge of doom. Love elevates others, permanently erases pain, brings joy, purpose, and meaning to life. It takes a lifetime of effort and wisdom to learn how to love, but once gained, love’s worth is infinite. Joseph B. Wirthlin said “The measure of our love is the measure of the greatness of our souls.” Without love, all mankind’s endeavors and accomplishments become worthless.

Pornography, on the other hand, is cheap. It requires no education, discipline, self-mastery, time, or sacrifice to use. Weak cowardly imbeciles who are incapable of forming meaningful relationships with others mistakenly turn to pornography to try and escape their sad pitiful lives. The only way to escape feeling worthless and rejected is to actually be worth something though. Those who are too lazy and uncaring to put the time, effort, and work into something of value will find no lasting comfort from pornography. No amount of rationalizations or delusional imaginations will ever compensate for the shame which results from choosing indifferent selfish lassitude over concerned selfless dedication. Pornography creates nothing, and takes everything in return.



The relationships we hold with others form the building blocks of society. The height to which a society climbs is determined by the strength of our connections with others because that’s what a society is; a bunch of people who are connected and able to work together. Societies flourish when each member selflessly contributes something of equal or greater value in exchange for what is received. Pornography steals from others without contributing something of equal or grater value in return, and is therefore a drain on society. Pornography is the epitome of selfishness. Those who use pornography care for no one and nothing but themselves. They are more interested in attaining shallow short-lived self-gratification than they are in forming meaningful relationships with those around them. Pornography is therefore anti-relationship, anti-establishment, and anti-society.


Healthy associations with others open our eyes to larger realities which would otherwise be undetectable. Working together in teams creates productivity on unimaginable scales. Through working together, the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts. All of the advances of humankind can be attributed to one thing – teamwork. Those who read the books of others, listen to others, learn from others, and respect others, are able to build upon the mighty foundation created by the billions of minds which have hitherto inhabited this earth.


Conversely, detrimental selfish interactions with others lead to mistrust, disrespect, and isolationism. Who is going to befriend, trust, or love someone who takes from others without giving something of equal value in return? Self-serving people inevitably isolate themselves from others through their actions. Solitary confinement is considered one of the cruelest forms of punishment and has been shown to cause insanity, and suicide. A prideful child who decides they don’t need anyone’s help would be hard pressed to invent the wheel if they worked on it their entire life. Left to ourselves we perish and die. Working together our potential is infinite.



In writing these statements it is my hope that those who find themselves trapped within the soul-destroying addictive power of pornography will be able to see it for what it is – degrading filth which robs the lives of those who partake of it, those who supply it, and the families who must endure it. May those who need help have the courage to get the help they need. May we all rise above the filth and grasp hold of those precious gifts which are only given to the clean and pure heart.

 

[idea]

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]"My reaction to porn films is as follows: After the first ten minutes, I want to go home and screw. After the first 20 minutes, I never want to screw again as long as I live."

~Erica Jong, Playboy Magazine, September 1975[/FONT]

yes - it actually does destroy one's ability to sexually perform with an actual person...

http://www.ukmedix.com/impotence/impotence-porn.cfm



Pornography and mental health | Pornography Addiction | Pornography and Depression | Psychology

 

[Skwim]

Pornography: Harmless fun? - by Jamie Turner - Helium

Sorry, but an opinion piece by a stay-at-home Mormon mother with a degree in Engineering Systems doesn't mean much when it comes to social issues.

 

[idea]

Sorry, but an opinion piece by a stay-at-home Mormon mother with a degree in Engineering Systems doesn't mean much when it comes to social issues.

appeal to authority is illogical - debate the points if you wish, the author is inconsequential


Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Skwim]

appeal to authority is illogical - debate the points if you wish, the author is inconsequential


Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When it comes to opinion authorship is the only thing that's important. However, I will take a stab at the "evidence" your stay-at-home Mormon mother with a degree in Engineering Systems presents, and which you put so much trust in.

But before I get started though, I'm going to grade her statements (most of them anyway).

E = a statement supported by evidence
O = an unsubstantiated statement of opinion
T = trite rhetoric

Pornography destroys the most precious thing humankind holds.O It destroys love.O Pornography destroys families, marriages, individuals, and societies. O
Love is based on trust, loyalty, respect, empathy, and endures to the edge of doom.T Love elevates others, permanently erases pain, brings joy, purpose, and meaning to life.T It takes a lifetime of effort and wisdom to learn how to love,O but once gained, love’s worth is infinite. Joseph B. Wirthlin said “The measure of our love is the measure of the greatness of our souls.” T Without love, all mankind’s endeavors and accomplishments become worthless. O T

Pornography, on the other hand, is cheap. O It requires no education, discipline, self-mastery, time, or sacrifice to use. Weak cowardly imbeciles who are incapable of forming meaningful relationships with others mistakenly turn to pornography to try and escape their sad pitiful lives.O The only way to escape feeling worthless and rejected is to actually be worth something though. O T Those who are too lazy and uncaring to put the time, effort, and work into something of value will find no lasting comfort from pornography. O T No amount of rationalizations or delusional imaginations will ever compensate for the shame which results from choosing indifferent selfish lassitude over concerned selfless dedication.O T Pornography creates nothing, and takes everything in return. O T

The relationships we hold with others form the building blocks of society. O The height to which a society climbs is determined by the strength of our connections with others because that’s what a society is; a bunch of people who are connected and able to work together. T Societies flourish when each member selflessly contributes something of equal or greater value in exchange for what is received. O Pornography steals from others without contributing something of equal or grater value in return, and is therefore a drain on society. O T Pornography is the epitome of selfishness.O T Those who use pornography care for no one and nothing but themselves. O T They are more interested in attaining shallow short-lived self-gratification than they are in forming meaningful relationships with those around them. O Pornography is therefore anti-relationship, anti-establishment, and anti-society. O T


Healthy associations with others open our eyes to larger realities which would otherwise be undetectable. T Working together in teams creates productivity on unimaginable scales. O T Through working together, the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts. T All of the advances of humankind can be attributed to one thing – teamwork. T Those who read the books of others, listen to others, learn from others, and respect others, are able to build upon the mighty foundation created by the billions of minds which have hitherto inhabited this earth. T


Conversely, detrimental selfish interactions with others lead to mistrust, disrespect, and isolationism. O T Who is going to befriend, trust, or love someone who takes from others without giving something of equal value in return? T Self-serving people inevitably isolate themselves from others through their actions. O T Solitary confinement is considered one of the cruelest forms of punishment and has been shown to cause insanity, and suicide. T A prideful child who decides they don’t need anyone’s help would be hard pressed to invent the wheel if they worked on it their entire life.O Left to ourselves we perish and die. O T Working together our potential is infinite. T

In writing these statements it is my hope that those who find themselves trapped within the soul-destroying addictive power of pornography will be able to see it for what it is – degrading filth which robs the lives of those who partake of it, those who supply it, and the families who must endure it. O T May those who need help have the courage to get the help they need. May we all rise above the filth and grasp hold of those precious gifts which are only given to the clean and pure heart. T


​

And the grading is:

E = statement supported by evidence . . . . . . . 0
O = unsubstantiated statement of opinion . . . 24
T = trite rhetoric. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .25
​

Not much going for it. In fact, it has nothing going for it at all, but if this is what pops your corn, unsubstantiated statements of opinion and trite rhetoric, then I think you've found yourself a guru.

 

[Sunstone]

Sorry, but an opinion piece by a stay-at-home Mormon mother with a degree in Engineering Systems doesn't mean much when it comes to social issues.

That article on porn was so bizarre that I emailed it to three friends of mine -- all ex-Mormons -- who are co-authoring a satire of Mormon sexuality to be published next year. I'm hoping they can use the article in their satire.

 

[idea]

This stuff is obvious to most... but if you really want, we can google some sources for you

Pornography destroys the most precious thing humankind holds.O It destroys love.O Pornography destroys families, marriages, individuals, and societies. O

Pornography increases divorce rate in US | All-Spy Keylogger

Porn Use Increases Infidelity, Divorce | Marriage Gems

Researcher Patrick Fagan, PhD, a psychologist and former Deputy Assistant Health and Human Services Secretary, calls pornography a “quiet family killer” and says it is time for citizens to buck the laissez-faire approach to porn. His key findings:

• Pornography use was correlated with an increase in infidelity of more than 300%. (Other factors may have also contributed to the infidelity, but it was a factor.)
• 56% of divorces involved one party having an obsessive interest in porn.
• Married men who are involved in pornography feel less sexually satisfied with their spouse and less attached to her. Wives notice and are upset by the difference. Many wives begin to feel unattractive or sexually inadequate.
• More than half of those engaged in cybersex lost interest in sexual intercourse; one-third of their partners also lost interest.
• Pornography is addictive, and neuroscientists are beginning to map the biological substrate.
• Users become desensitized and tend to seek more extreme types of pornography (including viewing aggressive behaviors and rape).
• Child-sex offenders are more likely to distribute or regularly view pornography.
• Pornography use alters sexual attitudes and behavior.
• Adolescents exposed to high levels of pornography use had lower levels of sexual self-esteem. Porn use was highly correlated with increased sex with non-romantic friends.
• Men are six times more likely to view pornography as females, and spend more time viewing it. However, among women who engaged in cybersex, 80% went on to have real-life sexual affairs, compared to 33% of men.
• When brains are scanned using a PET scanner while viewing pornography, the brain reactions are similar to a cocaine addict’s brain while viewing images of others using cocaine.
• The presence of sexually oriented businesses in communities leads to increases in crime and decreases in property rates.
• Dr. Fagan concludes, “Pornography corrodes the conscience, promotes distrust between husbands and wives and debases untold thousands of young women. It is not harmless escapism but relational and emotional poison.”

More Attorneys Say Internet Pornography a Factor in Divorce | Treatment Center

Pornography's Impact on Marriage & The Family | The Heritage Foundation

etc. etc. etc.

Love is based on trust, loyalty, respect, empathy, and endures to the edge of doom.T Love elevates others, permanently erases pain, brings joy, purpose, and meaning to life.T It takes a lifetime of effort and wisdom to learn how to love,O but once gained, love’s worth is infinite. Joseph B. Wirthlin said “The measure of our love is the measure of the greatness of our souls.” T Without love, all mankind’s endeavors and accomplishments become worthless. O T

Love - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pornography, on the other hand, is cheap. O

It is free...

... They are more interested in attaining shallow short-lived self-gratification than they are in forming meaningful relationships with those around them.

you do not have an actual relationship with some photo shopped puppet on a computer screen...

Healthy associations with others open our eyes to larger realities which would otherwise be undetectable. T Working together in teams creates productivity on unimaginable scales. O T Through working together, the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts. T All of the advances of humankind can be attributed to one thing – teamwork. T Those who read the books of others, listen to others, learn from others, and respect others, are able to build upon the mighty foundation created by the billions of minds which have hitherto inhabited this earth. T

Synergy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Conversely, detrimental selfish interactions with others lead to mistrust, disrespect, and isolationism. O T Who is going to befriend, trust, or love someone who takes from others without giving something of equal value in return? T Self-serving people inevitably isolate themselves from others through their actions. O T Solitary confinement is considered one of the cruelest forms of punishment and has been shown to cause insanity, and suicide. T A prideful child who decides they don’t need anyone’s help would be hard pressed to invent the wheel if they worked on it their entire life.O Left to ourselves we perish and die. O T Working together our potential is infinite. T

Solitary confinement - Psychology Wiki
Solitary confinement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In writing these statements it is my hope that those who find themselves trapped within the soul-destroying addictive power of pornography will be able to see it for what it is – degrading filth which robs the lives of those who partake of it, those who supply it, and the families who must endure it. O T May those who need help have the courage to get the help they need. May we all rise above the filth and grasp hold of those precious gifts which are only given to the clean and pure heart. T

there are plenty of addiction recovery groups out there for a reason... these groups are real...

sounds like someone is in denial...
​

 

[Songbird]

The article was poorly written, but the authorship is irrelevant.

 

[idea]

That article on porn was so bizarre that I emailed it to three friends of mine -- all ex-Mormons -- who are co-authoring a satire of Mormon sexuality to be published next year. I'm hoping they can use the article in their satire.

the old anti-crowd... it's true - you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone... the article is harsh, could have been a little "softer" but I think does get the point across...