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Pork prohibited not only for muslims

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
When did I say that?

And did you watch the video? It wasn't/isn't an isolated incident.



"Denouncing" something doesn't mean much if you're still supporting the practice.
Do you honestly believe that Jewish authorities haven't put a halt (or, at least attempt to put a halt) to these practices once such things were discovered?

I don't. There are Jews who work hard to make sure that such things do NOT happen again. But, of course, the video that discusses what brought Rubashkin's to our attention in 2004 would not cover that, now would it?
 

anders

Well-Known Member
Alot of things to digest here:D

For starters, I myself decide what I eat. But sometimes, it is fun to discuss hypothetically on for example the contents of holy books.

For the subject of this thread, there's a beautiful contradiction in trying to harmonize Jesus' saying that he had not come to change the minutest dot in the law, and the arguing that he declared everything eaten religiously OK.

Which do you think is more common?

- a cat wanders into a pig enclosure, poops, the pigs eat it, and when the pig is cooked, it isn't cooked thoroughly.

- a person doesn't wash their hands properly after changing the kitty litter and then touches their face or handles food.

As I remember it, the toxoplasmosis scare in Sweden some years ago concentrated on cats defecating in children's sand boxes.

Acts 10 talks about beast with four feet. Pigs do not have feet.

They sure do have feet in my language (Swedish) ...
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
For the subject of this thread, there's a beautiful contradiction in trying to harmonize Jesus' saying that he had not come to change the minutest dot in the law, and the arguing that he declared everything eaten religiously OK.

When I look at the context of what is in their scripture Yeshua doesn't appear to be making everything eaten religiously OK.

They sure do have feet in my language (Swedish) ...

Then again..your language isn't Hebrew....;)
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh. While watching the long version (parts 1 and 2), I came to realize that AgriProcessors Inc. IS Rubashkin's.

Yeah - there was a LOT of controversy, and as I said, this company been blacklisted since this was uncovered. There was corruption among the Orthodox certification organizations uncovered, and, as I said, their Kosher certificate was yanked.

The Conservative and Reform Rabbis weren't the only ones who were against the abuses of AgriProcessors Inc.

I had also heard about the corruption internationally abroad described in Part 2.

I say that it is unfair to determine that ALL Kosher meat companies today operate under the same corrupt aegis as AgriProcessors Inc., that was uncovered 8 years ago.

Who said "ALL"?

Do you honestly believe that Jewish authorities haven't put a halt (or, at least attempt to put a halt) to these practices once such things were discovered?

How would I know? Although I would think that if they had there should be some kind of documentation somewhere, so it should be pretty easy for you to verify what you're saying here.


And also: how would you know?

There are Jews who work hard to make sure that such things do NOT happen again.

Great, I'm guessing they've heard about the internet too..

But, of course, the video that discusses what brought Rubashkin's to our attention in 2004 would not cover that, now would it?

Have anything newer? So far it sounds like you're just guessing. And considering the emotional tinge to your posts that I'm detecting at this point, I'm thinking your guesses might be something less than 100% reliable.
 
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Harmonious

Well-Known Member
Who said "ALL"?
I never said you did. I was referring to the inference that could be made from your posts to FOuad.


How would I know? Although I would think that if they had there should be some kind of documentation somewhere, so it should be pretty easy for you to verify what you're saying here.



And also: how would you know?
What are you looking for? A similar video that says the opposite of the video you brought? Are you looking for fliers that said to avoid Rubashkin's? Letters of approval of other, non-corrupt kosher slaughter houses?

What would count as proof? I don't intend to go on a goose chase around the internet looking for things that: 1) may not be there or 2) won't be "proof enough" for you.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I never said you did.

Yes you did. you said
you said:
I say that it is unfair to determine that ALL Kosher meat companies today operate under the same corrupt aegis as AgriProcessors Inc., that was uncovered 8 years ago.

You even put "ALL" in all caps.

I was referring to the inference that could be made from your posts to FOuad.

Sure. If you're just looking to be offended for no reason I'm sure you could manage to find any inferences in there you like, whether they're there or not.

What are you looking for?

Something besides your opinion or vague speculation.

A similar video that says the opposite of the video you brought? Are you looking for fliers that said to avoid Rubashkin's? Letters of approval of other, non-corrupt kosher slaughter houses?

A website maybe? If there are organizations that watch-dog the kosher food industry, I'm guessing they have something up somewhere on the net.

What would count as proof?

I'm not looking for proof. There's a lot of room to play with in between solid proof and random speculation.

I don't intend to go on a goose chase around the internet looking for things that: 1) may not be there or 2) won't be "proof enough" for you.

So in other words you don't intend to even attempt to back up anything you said.

"wont be proof enough for you". I love this game. In other words "I'm not going to even try to back up anything I say with evidence because I'm sure you would just reject it anyway" even though you have zero experience with me to base that on.

Just because I don't consider your opinion the word of God doesn't mean I wouldn't accept something with a little more substance to it.

It's not like I'm trying to prove the kosher meat industry isn't kosher. I was just pointing out that if anybody is putting they're faith in any industry who's main objective is to make a profit (just like any other industry) or in the governmental organizations that are supposed to be regulating them, and trusting them to actually care as much about the same things that you care about, maybe you should look again.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
Yes you did. you said

You even put "ALL" in all caps.
We have a failure to communicate. I'll try again.

I never said that you DID assume that all Kosher companies were corrupt. There are other folks reading along, and there are people who are not as charitable in their thinking as you have proved to be, on most occasions.

I was trying to head off faulty assumptions before they formed, not accuse you of making those assumptions or coming to those conclusions.

Something besides your opinion or vague speculation.

A website maybe? If there are organizations that watch-dog the kosher food industry, I'm guessing they have something up somewhere on the net.
See, that is the problem. The Kosher certification organizations ARE watch-dog groups. That is the point of their existence.

They aren't likely to publish info when everything is going as it should. They would publish info to show that something has gone wrong.

No news is good news, and if nothing is wrong, we aren't likely to hear about well functioning, healthful situations unless they hit a happy milestone.

That is why I'm asking what you are looking to see.

I'm not looking for proof. There's a lot of room to play with in between solid proof and random speculation.

So in other words you don't intend to even attempt to back up anything you said.

"wont be proof enough for you". I love this game.
Or, you could take me at my word, and tell me what kind of thing you are looking for.

I didn't say that I wouldn't post information. I said that I won't go around looking for stuff and hope it's good enough for you.

But as I said before, if nothing out of the ordinary shows up, it doesn't prove that the Rubashkin travesty is the norm. It shows that everything is copacetic. Lack of proof is not proof that bad situations have continued.

Tell me what you are looking for, and I'll see what I can find.

It's not like I'm trying to prove the kosher meat industry isn't kosher.
That is good. I was worried.

I was just pointing out that if anybody is putting they're faith in any industry who's main objective is to make a profit (just like any other industry) or in the governmental organizations that are supposed to be regulating them, and trusting them to actually care as much about the same things that you care about, maybe you should look again.
I said it before, and I'll say it again.

The whole POINT of the Kashrut organizations is to act as watch-dogs to make sure that everything involved is going in accordance with Torah law. That is the reason Jews value their rulings.

That is also the reason that when things go wrong, there is a firestorm of letters, media updates, and newsletters amongst Jews to make sure that we know when we can trust things or not trust things.

Like I said, I'm not sure what type of thing you are looking for. I can find "OU Warnings or Updates" to show when things are kosher or not.

For example, I belong to several newsgroups. There is a Subways restaurant on Jewel Avenue, near the corner of Main Street in Kew Gardens Hills, Queens. When it first moved in, it was Glatt Kosher. There were no dairy or pork products; they only had the kosher meat, fish, and vegetarian options.

A few months ago, I received no fewer than five notifications that this particular Subways changed ownership and was no longer Kosher, and it now has the full complement of any regular Subways menu that people have come to expect.
 
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Harmonious

Well-Known Member
The whole POINT of the Kashrut organizations is to act as watch-dogs to make sure that everything involved is going in accordance with Torah law. That is the reason Jews value their rulings.

That is also the reason that when things go wrong, there is a firestorm of letters, media updates, and newsletters amongst Jews to make sure that we know when we can trust things or not trust things.
It also occurs to me that these things - unlike Rubashkin's, that needed serious publication so that this aberration was brought to light - won't appear in full-page ads in the New York Times, or on billboards, or like that.

When it comes to situations where no one but Jews are likely to care about the outcomes of a negative finding, more likely than not, it will be kept within Jewish (or anyone else who signs up for such things) newsletters or email newsgroups. We don't particularly care to air our "dirty laundry" such that people who otherwise wouldn't care don't have something to gossip about.

The thing with Rubashkin's was horrible. You didn't see the whole controversy as it unfolded, as different Rabbis (I hope you understand that in America, we don't have a "Chief Rabbi," so authority isn't centralized) ruled differently, and explained why those who sided WITH Rubashkin's were wrong.

From the video you posted, the Orthodox rabbi who kept showing up was indeed presenting a valid Orthodox ruling. However, the teachings of Rav Kook from Israel, while honorable, are a distinct minority opinion amongst Orthodox Jews. The more Rabbi Greenbaum spoke, the more I realized that he was a student of the ways of Rav Kook. This is totally fine, and as I said, his words were totally valid.

Unfortunately, most of his opinion, particularly about meat being a temporary concession to the blood-thirstiness of humanity, is NOT representative of most Orthodox Jewry.

The opinion about being kind to all living creatures and being merciful with them as they live IS representative of Orthodox (and apparently other) Jewry.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
We have a failure to communicate. I'll try again.

I never said that you DID assume that all Kosher companies were corrupt. There are other folks reading along, and there are people who are not as charitable in their thinking as you have proved to be, on most occasions.

I was trying to head off faulty assumptions before they formed, not accuse you of making those assumptions or coming to those conclusions.

See, that is the problem. The Kosher certification organizations ARE watch-dog groups. That is the point of their existence.

Then theses should have websites that the public can access, with updates, reports, exposes, basically information to let the public know what's going on in the industry at any given time.

That is, if these are private organizations unaffiliated with the meat industry or any government agencies.

They aren't likely to publish info when everything is going as it should. They would publish info to show that something has gone wrong.

Publish it where? If they have their own websites it isn't likely they're going to limit their reporting to the bad news. Most websites don't operate that way.

No news is good news, and if nothing is wrong, we aren't likely to hear about well functioning, healthful situations unless they hit a happy milestone.

We aren't likely to hear about it if something goes wrong either. Using the example of the slaughterhouse in the video I posted, what happened there?

This was the worlds largest kosher meat processing plant and they were breaking kosher laws all over the place. And they would still be operating that way if PETA hadn't done an undercover investigation of the place.

Remember: they weren't caught by any Kosher certification organizations (and I'm assuming they were already in existence 8 years ago), they were caught by an independent animal rights organization.

That is why I'm asking what you are looking to see.

I already explained that.

Or, you could take me at my word,

That's just it: you haven't even given me that much. All you said was:
you said:
Do you honestly believe that Jewish authorities haven't put a halt (or, at least attempt to put a halt) to these practices once such things were discovered? I don't

There's nothing there to take your word at. You're not giving me any information. For that matter, I wouldn't even call it an opinion. Sounds more like a guess.

Now if you had told me something like "Hey, I know where my meat is coming from, I know what their practices are, and they're 100% kosher" I would have taken your word for it.

But at this point, it seems fairly certain to me that you don't actually know any of this. You're just guessing and going on faith.

and tell me what kind of thing you are looking for.

Ok how's this: how about giving me the name of one of these kosher certification organizations so I can go on the web and look for their website myself. Or do you know the name of any.

I didn't say that I wouldn't post information. I said that I won't go around looking for stuff and hope it's good enough for you.

No. That isn't what you said.

But as I said before, if nothing out of the ordinary shows up, it doesn't prove that the Rubashkin travesty is the norm. It shows that everything is copacetic.

I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. Most crimes are never discovered, and most of the crimes that are aren't reported, especially at the corporate/industrial level.

Lack of proof is not proof that bad situations have continued.

No. A lot of the time lack of proof is just proof of apathy and denial.

Put it this way. A grand total of 1 expose' has been done on 1 kosher meat processing plant (the worlds largest).

That one expose' found all sorts of violations to kosher law.

What do you suppose the odds are that this was an isolated, completely unique incident? I would say: zero.

And considering the cloud this incident cast over the dependability of the kosher meat industry, I would think that, if this wasn't the norm, the rest of the industry would be bending over backwards to show people that.

Tell me what you are looking for, and I'll see what I can find.

Like I said: I'd settle for the name of one of these watch-dog orgs.

That is good. I was worried.

I said it before, and I'll say it again.

The whole POINT of the Kashrut organizations is to act as watch-dogs to make sure that everything involved is going in accordance with Torah law. That is the reason Jews value their rulings.

That is also the reason that when things go wrong, there is a firestorm of letters, media updates, and newsletters amongst Jews to make sure that we know when we can trust things or not trust things.

(and of course, someone who isn't Jewish should just know this)

Well anyway, you gave me a word I can do a search on.

Like I said, I'm not sure what type of thing you are looking for.

at this point, a bottle of aspirin.

I can find "OU Warnings or Updates" to show when things are kosher or not.

For example, I belong to several newsgroups. There is a Subways restaurant on Jewel Avenue, near the corner of Main Street in Kew Gardens Hills, Queens. When it first moved in, it was Glatt Kosher. There were no dairy or pork products; they only had the kosher meat, fish, and vegetarian options.

A few months ago, I received no fewer than five notifications that this particular Subways changed ownership and was no longer Kosher, and it now has the full complement of any regular Subways menu that people have come to expect.

Completely different situation.
 
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Harmonious

Well-Known Member
Then theses should have websites that the public can access, with updates, reports, exposes, basically information to let the public know what's going on in the industry at any given time.

That is, if these are private organizations unaffiliated with the meat industry or any government agencies.
Sure. No problem.

Orthodox Union. (OU) http://www.ou.org/

Star K Star-K Kosher Certification

Kof-K KOF-K Kosher Supervision

Organized Kashrus Laboratories (OK) Welcome to the OK Kosher Certification Website

The Beis Din Tzedek of the Eidah Hachareidis of Jerusalem http://www.badatz.ca/eidah

The Va'ad of Harabonim of Queens The Vaad Harabonim Of Queens: VHQ Welcome

There are hundreds of them, but I figured that these, that I'm most familiar with, is enough to start with.

We aren't likely to hear about it if something goes wrong either. Using the example of the slaughterhouse in the video I posted, what happened there?

This was the worlds largest kosher meat processing plant and they were breaking kosher laws all over the place. And they would still be operating that way if PETA hadn't done an undercover investigation of the place.

Remember: they weren't caught by any Kosher certification organizations (and I'm assuming they were already in existence 8 years ago), they were caught by an independent animal rights organization.
More to the point - the general public might not have found these things out.

I remember a few years ago, there was a serious scandal in Monsey, New York, where one butcher lied about all manners of Kashrut, causing hundreds of Jews - who often rely on the meat markets in Monsey - to sin by eating non-Kosher meat.

The man who was responsible was caught, the Jewish community had a time sorting itself out, but the situation was resolved.

I'm not sure that it made the major media, but Jews who needed to know were very much apprized of the situation.

As I said, the problem has been resolved, the guilty man is no longer living in Monsey, and the high level of Kashrut in Monsey resumed.

Such things ARE made known, but not necessarily in the national/international media.

Now if you had told me something like "Hey, I know where my meat is coming from, I know what their practices are, and they're 100% kosher" I would have taken your word for it.
Fair enough. I know where my meat is coming from, and they are 100% Kosher. I may not know all their practices, but I know how to get in contact with people who DO.

It occurs to me that most of the rest of your post involves an ongoing miscommunication. I'm not going to address that, as we could go around and around for no particular point.

Knowing that you were looking to see a few Kashrut Organizations, I gave you a few.

It occurs to me that Kosher Quest KosherQuest Online Kashrus Information might be another helpful website for you.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure. No problem.

Orthodox Union. (OU) Jewish Holidays, Torah, Jewish Jobs, Tuition Affordability, Kosher Certification, Jewish Teens

Star K Star-K Kosher Certification

Kof-K KOF-K Kosher Supervision

Organized Kashrus Laboratories (OK) Welcome to the OK Kosher Certification Website

The Beis Din Tzedek of the Eidah Hachareidis of Jerusalem http://www.badatz.ca/eidah

The Va'ad of Harabonim of Queens The Vaad Harabonim Of Queens: VHQ Welcome

There are hundreds of them, but I figured that these, that I'm most familiar with, is enough to start with.

More to the point - the general public might not have found these things out.

I remember a few years ago, there was a serious scandal in Monsey, New York, where one butcher lied about all manners of Kashrut, causing hundreds of Jews - who often rely on the meat markets in Monsey - to sin by eating non-Kosher meat.

The man who was responsible was caught, the Jewish community had a time sorting itself out, but the situation was resolved.

I'm not sure that it made the major media, but Jews who needed to know were very much apprized of the situation.

As I said, the problem has been resolved, the guilty man is no longer living in Monsey, and the high level of Kashrut in Monsey resumed.

Such things ARE made known, but not necessarily in the national/international media.

Thanks, Harmonious. this is what I was looking for. :p

Fair enough. I know where my meat is coming from, and they are 100% Kosher. I may not know all their practices, but I know how to get in contact with people who DO.

It occurs to me that most of the rest of your post involves an ongoing miscommunication. I'm not going to address that, as we could go around and around for no particular point.

Knowing that you were looking to see a few Kashrut Organizations, I gave you a few.

It occurs to me that Kosher Quest KosherQuest Online Kashrus Information might be another helpful website for you.

Cool. I just started trying to educate myself about what's going on in the food industry these days, and a lot of it is pretty disturbing.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Harmonious. this is what I was looking for. :p
I'm glad we finally got that settled. ;)

Cool. I just started trying to educate myself about what's going on in the food industry these days, and a lot of it is pretty disturbing.
It can be. I'm glad you are learning, and I hope you end up with satisfying (if not entirely happy) results.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
On another positive note, I happen to be fond of S'Better Beef Corn Dogs. This is one product that is both OU certified Kosher and also Cresent H Certified Halal.

(S'Better Farms makes other things, but I don't care for their chicken fingers or buffalo wings.)

It makes me happy to see inter-religious unity on things that matter.
 
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