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Popper's "Systematic Observations."

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Myth: a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events [i.e., theo-logy: logic centered around a theos].

Google Dictionary.

My thesis is that what we call “science” is differentiated from the older myths not by being something distinct from myth, but by being accompanied by a second-order tradition---that of critically discussing the myth. . . In critical discussions which now arose there also arose, for the first time, something like systematic observation. . . Thus it is the myth or the theory which leads to, and guides, our systematic observations----observations undertaken with the intention of probing into the truth of the theory or myth. From this point of view the growth of the theories of science should not be considered as the result of the collection, or accumulation, of observations; on the contrary, the observations and their accumulation should be considered as the result of the growth of the scientific theories.

Conjectures and Refutations, p. 127
.

I realize that such myths may be developed, and become testable; that historically speaking all----or very nearly all----scientific theories originate from myths . . ..

Conjectures and Refutations, p. 38.

A critical [scientific] attitude needs for its raw material, as it were, theories or beliefs which are held more or less dogmatically. Thus, science must start with myths [of say Zeus and Poseidon], and with the criticism of [these] myths . . ..

Conjectures and Refutations.

In the thread, Freewill and Culture: The Prism for Perception, argumentation drifted into how ancient perceptions drifted into the modern scientific endeavor that's fashioned the outer adornment of our modern world. In that argumentation, the ideas of Karl Popper (some of them noted above) became part and parcel of the dialogue. One statement in particular seems like the axis of an important revelation about the nature of modern scientific thought.

My thesis is that what we call “science” is differentiated from the older myths not by being something distinct from myth, but by being accompanied by a second-order tradition---that of critically discussing the myth. . . In critical discussions which now arose there also arose, for the first time, something like systematic observation. . . Thus it is the myth or the theory which leads to, and guides, our systematic observations----observations undertaken with the intention of probing into the truth of the theory or myth. From this point of view the growth of the theories of science should not be considered as the result of the collection, or accumulation, of observations; on the contrary, the observations and their accumulation should be considered as the result of the growth of the scientific theories.

Conjectures and Refutations, p
. 127.​

Having read the statements above too many times to express systematically, it appears to me that the phrase Popper italicizes, "systematic observations," contains not only a misunderstanding of the truth of the matter, but an opening to an avenue of thought that providence and senescence precluded Popper from including in his brilliant compendium.




John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
My thesis is that what we call “science” is differentiated from the older myths not by being something distinct from myth, but by being accompanied by a second-order tradition---that of critically discussing the myth. . . In critical discussions which now arose there also arose, for the first time, something like systematic observation. . . Thus it is the myth or the theory which leads to, and guides, our systematic observations----observations undertaken with the intention of probing into the truth of the theory or myth. From this point of view the growth of the theories of science should not be considered as the result of the collection, or accumulation, of observations; on the contrary, the observations and their accumulation should be considered as the result of the growth of the scientific theories.

Conjectures and Refutations
.​

Having read the statements above too many times to express systematically, it appears to me that the phrase Popper italicizes, "systematic observations," contains not only a misunderstanding of the truth of the matter, but an opening to an avenue of thought that providence and senescence precluded Popper from including in his brilliant compendium.

In the relationship between myth and modern science Popper implies that "systematic observations" arose in the early scientific critique, or critical analysis, of ancient mythological ideas. He concedes, throughout, that ancient mythological ideas are the fertile soil from whence scientific thought grows. But it appears he stumbles in trying to shake things out since it appears that "systematic observations" are what distinguishes natural observations from mytho-logical (early theological) insights.

As discussed in the thread mentioned in the thread seeder, natural observations can be shown to be flawed so far as scientific truth is concerned: the moon and the sun are not the same size; and one of them revolves around the earth, while the other, although it appears the same size, and appears to revolve around the earth too, is in fact the axis around which the earth revolves.

Natural observations don't reveal the scientific truths concerning the distinctions between the sun and the moon noted above. It takes a different kind of thought, a different prism, to see through the illusions inherent to our natural perceptions.

There appears to be a grave error in Popper's willingness to makes "systematic observations" leap-frog ancient mythological thought. On closer examination it appears that the first true case of "systematic thought" pre-exists the scientific-method of examination. It appears that "systematic thought" is what distinguishes mythological intuitions from natural perceptions. It appears to be these, or this, mythological intuition, that's the true dualistic other that first begins to question ---systematically --- the questionable faithfulness of the perceptions based on the theories encoded in the genes which (the genes) form the prism for natural perceptions.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
There appears to be a grave error in Popper's willingness to makes "systematic observations" leap-frog ancient mythological thought. On closer examination it appears that the first true case of "systematic thought" pre-exists the scientific-method of examination. It appears that "systematic thought" is what distinguishes mythological intuitions from natural perceptions. It appears to be these, or this, mythological intuition, that's the true dualistic other that first begins to question ---systematically --- the questionable faithfulness of the perceptions based on the theories encoded in the genes which (the genes) form the prism for natural perceptions.

What this line of reasoning does is separates natural perceptions from mytho, or theo, logical thought, which, the latter, are being described as "systematic observation"; it's distinguishing mytho-logical thought, which is systematic, from observation based wholly on the predispositions reified in the genes and thus the genetic observation-mechanisms growing out of the genes of the biological body.



John
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
As discussed in the thread mentioned in the thread seeder, natural observations can be shown to be flawed so far as scientific truth is concerned: the moon and the sun are not the same size; and one of them revolves around the earth, while the other, although it appears the same size, and appears to revolve around the earth too, is in fact the axis around which the earth revolves.

First, you are confusing two notions of 'same size'. One is angular size (the size it appears in our visual field) and the other is the same physical size.

It is an easy observation to show that things that are the same physical size need not have the same angular size and that things that are the same angular size need not have the same physical size.

We can even, by a process of systematic observations, determine the relation between physical size, angular size, and distance from the observer. When applied to the moon and sun, this gives a relation between the ratios of their sizes and the ratios of their distances.

The place where your example breaks down is that systematic observation needs to be done on ALL relevant variables. Which variables are relevant is ALSO determined by observation. Stopping with just one observation in one case doesn't lead to the truth.

Another aspect is that using the same word in two different ways can lead to confusion. If necessary, supply an adjective or use different words.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
John D. Brey said:
As discussed in the thread mentioned in the thread seeder, natural observations can be shown to be flawed so far as scientific truth is concerned: the moon and the sun are not the same size; and one of them revolves around the earth, while the other, although it appears the same size, and appears to revolve around the earth too, is in fact the axis around which the earth revolves.​

First, you are confusing two notions of 'same size'. One is angular size (the size it appears in our visual field) and the other is the same physical size. . . It is an easy observation to show that things that are the same physical size need not have the same angular size and that things that are the same angular size need not have the same physical size.

The primary point is that for the ancients, only the size as it appeared in their visual field was real until "systematic observation" brought "angular size" into the mix. For quite a long time the sun and moon were considered the same size. And natural observations were just fine with that. It was only when a critical attitude toward the size of the heavenly bodies came into the picture that anyone questioned their lying eyes and their visual field.

What prevented Anaximander from arriving at the theory that the earth was a globe rather than a drum? There can be little doubt: it was observational experience which taught him that the surface of the earth was, by and large, flat. Thus it was a speculative and critical argument, the abstract critical discussion of Thales theory, which almost led him to the true theory of the shape of the earth: it was observational experience which led him astray.

Conjectures and Refutations
, p. 139.​



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The place where your example breaks down is that systematic observation needs to be done on ALL relevant variables. Which variables are relevant is ALSO determined by observation. Stopping with just one observation in one case doesn't lead to the truth.

Right. . . But one of Popper's main points is that although natural observation is required, it is not the source for theory. As he says, you can't accumulate knowledge and observation and think you're doing science. He went so far as to challenge his audience to write down every observation for the rest of their life and present it to the Royal Academy of Science whom, he says, will throw it in the trash.

Although "systematic observations" require natural observations, natural observations don't require systematic observation. The latter is, in its most exaggerated form, not only unique to man, but the very thing that not only separates him from the mammals, but which tends to prove that man is an anomaly so far as the natural world is concerned.

There's a great mystery, or secret, hidden in man that threatens to take the chains off man and place them on nature where they belong. In Biblical parlance, man will one day regain from nature what he lost in the Fall. One day soon man will control every meaningful facet of the natural world, biology, physics, and theology.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
There appears to be a grave error in Popper's willingness to makes "systematic observations" leap-frog ancient mythological thought. On closer examination it appears that the first true case of "systematic thought" pre-exists the scientific-method of examination. It appears that "systematic thought" is what distinguishes mythological intuitions from natural perceptions. It appears to be these, or this, mythological intuition, that's the true dualistic other that first begins to question ---systematically --- the questionable faithfulness of the perceptions based on the theories encoded in the genes which (the genes) form the prism for natural perceptions.

This is a pretty significant thing since it implies that Popper's willingness to believe that "systematic thought" is the domain of the scientific-method of critical analysis rather than that it (systematic thought) is already well ensconced in mytho-theological thought shows what appears to be cognitive dissonance manifesting in Popper's thinking:

Copernicus studied in Bologna under the Platonist Novara; and Copernicus' idea of placing the sun rather than the earth in the centre of the universe was not the result of new observations but of a new interpretation of old and well-known facts in the light of semi-religious Platonic and Neo-Platonic ideas. The crucial idea can be traced back to the sixth book of Plato's Republic, where we can read that the sun plays the same role in the realm of visible things as does the idea of the good in the realm of ideas. Now the idea of the good is the highest in the hierarchy of Platonic ideas. Accordingly the sun, which endows visible things with their visibility, vitality, growth and progress, is the highest in the hierarchy of visible things in nature.

Conjectures and Refutations, p. 187.​

Popper is clear that it's "semi-religious Platonic and Neo-Platonic ideas" that systematically connect the sun with the greatest good, and thus, because it provides all visible things their visibility, vitality, growth, life, progress, etc., it must (the sun) be central, and not revolve around the very things it should be central to. This is religious thought. And yet it's a systematic reworking of the natural observations that (the natural observations) would have us believe that the sun, like the moon, revolves around the earth.

In other words, the abstract religious speculation about the "good" is the very systematic thought Popper wants to connect with the scientific-method as an adjunct to religious thought rather than willingly conceding that the scientific-method is merely another form of religious thought, or mytho-theo-logical thinking. In other places he does say that science is a form of myth-making. And yet he seems to want to distinguish the modern scientific-method from ancient myth-making by implying the modern form of myth-making applies systematic thought when he clearly shows that Plato, and Neo-Platonic myths clearly employ systematic reasoning of a high order. He continues:

Now if the sun was to be given pride of place, if the sun merited a divine status in the hierarchy of visible things, then it was hardly possible for it to revolve about the earth. The only fitting place for so exalted a star was the centre of the universe. So the earth was bound to revolve about the sun. This Platonic idea, then, forms the historical background of the Copernican revolution. It [the Copernican revolution] does not start with [natural] observations, but with a religious or mythological idea.

Ibid.​

The true systematic thought is already provided. All the scientific-method does is provide a critical and systematic means of testing thoughts that have already been generated in the systematic approach of religious myth. All the scientific-method contributes is a means to test religious hypotheses.

Not that this means of testing religious hypotheses is a small thing. It's obviously not. But to attempt to sneak the really heavy lifting, the true systematic thought, into the scientific-method, is to try to steal the life-blood of true science from its rightful owner: the hypotheses related to the high priests of the ancient religious orders and rites.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Now if the sun was to be given pride of place, if the sun merited a divine status in the hierarchy of visible things, then it was hardly possible for it to revolve about the earth. The only fitting place for so exalted a star was the centre of the universe. So the earth was bound to revolve about the sun. This Platonic idea, then, forms the historical background of the Copernican revolution. It [the Copernican revolution] does not start with [natural] observations, but with a religious or mythological idea.

Ibid.​

The true systematic thought is already provided. All the scientific-method does is provide a critical and systematic means of testing thoughts that have already been generated in the systematic approach of religious myth. All the scientific-method contributes is a means to test religious hypotheses.

Not that this means of testing religious hypotheses is a small thing. It's obviously not. But to attempt to sneak the really heavy lifting, the true systematic thought, into the scientific-method, is to try to steal the life-blood of true science from its rightful owner: the hypotheses related to the high priests of the ancient religious orders and rites.

Throughout the Popper essay quoted above, Popper conflates the traditions contained in myth and theology with the scientific-method. But they are not the same thing. The traditions produced in myth and theology are the true systematic thought designed to bring a higher order out of nature and our natural observations. Anyone who's read Popper's Conjectures and Refutations, in particular chapter 4, Towards a Rational Theory of Tradition, is completely aware that more than ten or twenty times Popper dogmatically refutes the idea that our natural observations are the source for the theories that lead to scientific development and technological evolution.

On the contrary, it's what he labels "systematic thought" that quite literally questions what's otherwise accepted as obvious and true according to natural observation, therein erecting a dichotomy between natural observations versus systematic thought.

And it's undeniably systematic thought, in Popper's understanding, that provides the impetus for changing the nature of our world through science and technology. In that, systematic thought can't simply accept natural observations as the foundation and source for truth and reality, or else there would be no need to criticize, theorize, and realize, that our natural observations are not the end of the matter concerning reality, but that they can be thought in all truth to be unfaithful and to distort the true nature of truth and reality.

Which is precisely where the problem arises for Popper's personal, humanistic, ideology, since to speak of the nature of "truth," "reality," and thus the goodness of knowing the truth, as opposed to untruth, illusion, or a veiled truth, leads the agnostic, humanistic theorist, right into the theology that, in Popper's case, he's hoping he can use the scientific-method, and technology, to displace, replace, or even erase.

It is here that the part played by tradition in our lives becomes understandable. We should be anxious, terrified, and frustrated, and we could not live in the social world, did it not contain a considerable amount of order, a great number of regularities to which we can adjust ourselves. The mere existence of these regularities is perhaps more important than their peculiar merits or demerits. They are needed as regularities, and therefore handed on as traditions, whether or not they are in other aspects rational or necessary or good or beautiful or what you will. There is a need for tradition in social life. Thus the creation of traditions plays a role similar to that of theories. Our scientific theories are instruments by which we try to bring some order into the chaos in which we live so as to make it rationally predictable.

Ibid. p. 131.​

There's clearly some disorder in Popper's words and theories since he's undeniably conflating the bringing of order into our perceived world (the world of our natural observations) by means of systematic thinking, thinking seeking an order perceived to be higher, better, "good," and true (i.e., myth and theology), than what we perceive by means of our natural, genetic, accoutrements. He conflates the seeking of a higher good, a more perfect truth (sytematic theological thought), with the scientific-method, which, far from producing theories of good, order, truth, in truth, merely critiques existing ideas by means of experiments designed to see which theological theories of order, truth, the good, stand up to the scientific-method, i.e, are actualized through critical experimentation and logical examination.

The scientific-method is wholly about critiquing ideas and not producing them. It's a selection mechanism and not a creation mechanism.

Popper speaks extensively concerning Bishop Berkely and Kant as the perfect models of how religious thinkers, attempting to systematically order the natural world, the world of observations, by means of their theological theories of the good, and true, the real, come to shockingly powerful ideas that upon further experimentation turn out to in fact be true, good, and useful in the extreme, once justified by experimentation.

Popper friend and associate, Professor Bryan Magee, went so far as to state that Kant merely asked himself what the world would have to be like to be brought in line with his theological tradition, and in that questioning, came up with ideas that are the seed of the most profound modern scientific ideas of our day:

One thing that has always struck me forcefully about this doctrine of Kant's is that it legitimates important components of a belief which he had held since long before he began to philosophize, namely Christian belief. It is a standard part of the traditional Christian faith that time and space and material objects are local characteristics of this human world of ours, but only of this world: they do not characterize reality as such . . . But what he did, unmistakably (and unremarked on to an extent that has never ceased to astonish me), is produce rational justification for many aspects of the religious beliefs in which he grew up [Christian belief]. . . it is as if he then said to himself: "How can these things be so? What can be the nature of time and space and material objects if they obtain only in the world of human beings? Could it be, given that they characterize only the world of experience and nothing else, that they are characteristics, or preconditions, of experience, and nothing else?" In other words, Kant's philosophy is a fully worked out analysis of what needs to be the case for what he believed already to be true [according to his per-existing religious theory].

Bryan Magee, Confessions of a Philosopher p. 249,250.

The picture of science of which I have so far only hinted may be sketched as follows. There is a reality behind the world as it appears to us, possibly a many-layered reality, of which the appearances are the outermost layers. What the great scientist does is boldly to guess, daringly to conjecture, what these inner realities are like. This is akin to myth making.

Popper Selections, p. 122.​

It's not akin to myth-making. It is myth-making. Which draws a line of demarcation between Popper and Einstein, two humanistic scientists, versus Newton and Kant, both of whom, the latter, were using scientific theorizing, systematic theorizing, to prove, not to create, their theology, rather than allegedly (errantly) believing themselves to be producing their epistemological foundation through scientific theorizing, as though this backwards process might it might justify a latter-day humanistic theology.

Kant and Newton, both of whom Einstein and Popper claimed are the greatest scientific thinkers of all time (Einstein said his science is impossible without Kant and Newton's earlier ideas) used systematic thinking, and the scientific-method, not to produce their thoughts, or beliefs, or epistemological order/tradition, but merely to test them against their natural observations. That these tests proved Newton and Kant's otherworldly theology to be powerful, almost impeccably so, is, amazingly, never commented on by either Popper or Einstein.

Both Popper and Einstein had it ***-backwards in that they used systematic thinking, the scientific-method, not to test their worldview, their humanism, their theological agnosticism, against natural observations, but, in their minds, to establish their agnostic, humanism, as a counterpart to the theology of Newton and Kant.

The fact that Popper and Einstein's backwardness, so far as the truth of science is concerned, isn't pointed out, and the fact that egregious errors in their statements are not called out, suggests, to this observer, the damage and danger brilliant humanists can do to mankind's march toward the kingdom of God when because of their unquestionable brilliance, they're thought to be beyond repute. In some ways their great contributions are negated by the seeds they plant toward error. Nevertheless, their hard work and brilliance, does act as a buttress, or a bulwark, against the mindlessness of slothful persons blinded and drowning in their genetic dispositions and natural observations which they never lift a hand to oppose. As Descartes said about them, they're never in danger of questioning their natural observations, since to them things are just as they appear, and nothing in their world is in need of questioning, let alone critical examination.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Both Popper and Einstein had it ***-backwards in that they used systematic thinking, the scientific-method, not to test their worldview, their humanism, their theological agnosticism, against natural observations, but, in their minds, to establish their agnostic, humanism, as a counterpart to the theology of Newton and Kant.

The fact that Popper and Einstein's backwardness, so far as the truth of science is concerned, isn't pointed out, and the fact that egregious errors in their statements are not called out, suggests, to this observer, the damage and danger brilliant humanists can do to mankind's march toward the kingdom of God when because of their unquestionable brilliance, they're thought to be beyond repute. In some ways their great contributions are negated by the seeds they plant toward error. Nevertheless, their hard work and brilliance, does act as a buttress, or a bulwark, against the mindlessness of slothful persons blinded and drowning in their genetic dispositions and natural observations which they never lift a hand to oppose. As Descartes said about them, they're never in danger of questioning their natural observations, since to them things are just as they appear, and nothing in their world is in need of questioning, let alone critical examination.

. . . Which leads to the question of questions and thus to the true seminal ground of modern science: why would any natural product of the natural world, a creature equipped with completely natural observational paraphernalia, question their own lying eyes in the the first place? By what possible logical predicate could a mind, a product of natural evolutionary principles, arrogantly question the very elements of nature of which it is merely one, perhaps high-minded, rung?

Not only does the questioning of one's very essence, in the natural world, require a metaphysical, meta-natural, perch, but, ironic beyond belief, it tends to require the very seminal beginning of Judeo/Christian myth-making as that beginning is ensconced in the myth of the so-called "original sin" (or the biological infection known as the "evil inclination"), since only by inferring that something about the "knowledge" we acquire naturally is a lie, a sin, the seed as it were, and fruit, of all our other ills (death being the worst), would a myth-maker or self-appointed priest begin to question whether or not the world his natural perceptions deliver up might themselves be contaminated by the knowledge acquired after the so-called original sin of sinking our teeth too deeply into the outer fruit of what is posited as a truth too deep to cut into without the help of a really sharp izmel.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
. . . Which leads to the question of questions and thus to the true seminal ground of modern science: why would any natural product of the natural world, a creature equipped with completely natural observational paraphernalia, question their own lying eyes in the the first place? By what possible logical predicate could a mind, a product of natural evolutionary principles, arrogantly question the very elements of nature of which it is merely one, perhaps high-minded, rung?

Not only does the questioning of one's very essence, in the natural world, require a metaphysical, meta-natural, perch, but, ironic beyond belief, it tends to require the very seminal beginning of Judeo/Christian myth-making as that beginning is ensconced in the myth of the so-called "original sin" (or the biological infection known as the "evil inclination"), since only by inferring that something about the "knowledge" we acquire naturally is a lie, a sin, the seed as it were, and fruit, of all our other ills (death being the worst), would a myth-maker or self-appointed priest begin to question whether or not the world his natural perceptions deliver up might themselves be contaminated by the knowledge acquired after the so-called original sin of sinking our teeth too deeply into the outer fruit of what is posited as a truth too deep to cut into without the help of a really sharp izmel.

These statements segue in an ironic manner with Popper's seminal belief that, "All science is cosmology," since our Judeo/Christian myth-maker must negotiate a gambit of biblical proportions by questioning his maker's true intentions and mechanisms in precisely the manner laid out in the Genesis (3) of man's fall from paradise. If our perceptions are broken, or incomplete, or more importantly designed to deceive, then not only is the creator who's stationed far above man's station in the design of things a "deceiver," but this deceiver, because of his station in life, stands between man and his perception of a God on the other side of the divine deceiver.

The first inclination of first men of science is to divine, so to say, whether it's the creator himself who's trying to deceive us, or whether, perhaps, there's an ancillary "deceiver," perhaps with a serpentine forked-tongue gallivanting as a faithful servant of God all the while working to undermine God's original intent?

This question segues into the cosmological desire to cut, with a sharp izmel (brit milah), deeper into the truth of things since the deepest thinking Jewish sages posited an anthropomorphic image of the cosmos (the sefirotic tree), adam kadmon, a prototype of father Abraham perhaps, willingly taking a knife to the very creative organ allegedly created not only by the creator himself, not only in the very image of the creator, but the organ who in its most seminal act opens the veil of the earth to deposit its most seminal testimony concerning itself, or himself, and the children he gives rise to, or conceives when he gives rise to his deepest desires to conceive.

Adding insult to the Jewish concept of this serpentine god, the divine deceiver, as it were, or he is, Moses does father Abraham one better by not just leaving a flesh wound on the serpentine deliverer of a false testimony about the true creator, Moses receives the testimony from the symbolically scythed serpentine god, the divine deliverer of allegedly seminal truth, and commences to immediately break both stones of testemony on the rocks of a higher hope for the prism through which Israel will come to see their true God. Abraham directs Moses by marking the source for the divine deception; and Moses follows through by breaking the seminal stones of a false-testemony, come, from, or through, a divine deceiver marked out for him by father Abraham.

With the deceptive flesh marked (father Abraham) for the final swing of the reaper of grim half-truths, and with the seminal testemony broken on the rocks of a higher hope for humanity (Moses), a firstborn Jewish male born out of this flattened out pregnancy, nothing to give rise in the first place, no deliverer or false testemony, starts out his ministry telling his audience that they've heard a word from god, but that he has a new testimony of higher veracity and from a much deeper source of truth: a sealed garden, a closed-womb, the earth prior to being opened up by a divine spade that he, the true firstborn of humanity, is called on specifically in order to call a spade a spade.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
. . . Which leads to the question of questions and thus to the true seminal ground of modern science: why would any natural product of the natural world, a creature equipped with completely natural observational paraphernalia, question their own lying eyes in the the first place? By what possible logical predicate could a mind, a product of natural evolutionary principles, arrogantly question the very elements of nature of which it is merely one, perhaps high-minded, rung?

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities ---his eternal power and divine nature ---have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 1:18-20.​

Paul’s statement above is the crux of this entire thread. Paul produces a contradiction, or paradox, that’s part and parcel of the paradoxical error Karl Popper produces in trying to describe the genesis of modern science without acknowledging that there is no such thing as a non-theistic scientists so far as true scientific creation is concerned. At first glance this statement flies in the face of the natural perception that the likes of Popper and Einstein are considered scientists of the highest order.

Paul’s paradoxical statement claims that the “invisible” God can be clearly seen by those who are not wicked, those who do not suppress the truth? But how can he be seen if he’s invisible? How can Paul make such a dogmatic statement when, to natural perceptions, it appears utterly contradictory? You can’t “clearly see” God if he’s invisible? Paul implies God can be seen, understood, by what is made; and that because of this supposed truism, all men who claim not to see God are without excuse:

It is therefore plain, that nothing can be more evident to any one that is capable of the least reflexion, than the existence of God, or a spirit who is intimately present to our minds, producing in them all that variety or ideas or sensations, which continually affect us, on whom we have an absolute and entire dependence, in short, `in whom we live, and move, and have our being’ [Acts 17:28]. That the discovery of this great truth which lies so near and obvious to the mind, should be attained to by the reason of so very few, is a sad instance of the stupidity and inattention of men who, though they are surrounded with such clear manifestations of the Deity, are yet so little affected by them, that they seem as it were blinded with excess of light.

Bishop Berkeley, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, Principle # 149.​

Sounding positively Pauline, Bishop Berkeley backstops Paul's claim that men are without excuse when they claim not to see the invisible God since, in the parlance of Paul and Berkeley, God is manifest in his creation in such a manner that anyone without inattention and stupidity can intuit the Presence of God in mundane or profane creation.

From the most elementary hierophany – e.g., manifestation of the sacred in some ordinary object, a stone or a tree --- to the supreme hierophany (which, for a Christian, is the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ) there is no solution of continuity. In each case we are confronted by the same mysterious act --- the manifestation of something of a wholly different order, a reality that does not belong to our world, in objects that are an integral part of our natural “profane” world.

Mircea Eliades, The Sacred and the Profane.​



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Sounding positively Pauline, Bishop Berkeley backstops Paul's claim that men are without excuse when they claim not to see the invisible God since, in the parlance of Paul and Berkeley, God is manifest in his creation in such a manner that anyone without inattention and stupidity can intuit the Presence of God in mundane or profane creation.

From the most elementary hierophany – e.g., manifestation of the sacred in some ordinary object, a stone or a tree --- to the supreme hierophany (which, for a Christian, is the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ) there is no solution of continuity. In each case we are confronted by the same mysterious act --- the manifestation of something of a wholly different order, a reality that does not belong to our world, in objects that are an integral part of our natural “profane” world.

Mircea Eliades, The Sacred and the Profane.​

Eliades' statement in the quotation above lends itself to the topic at hand when he speaks of a reality that doesn't belong to our natural world, since it's precisely the recognition of something supernatural, or non-natural, that's the stuff of myth and religion, so that to the extent that myth and religion are required, and even the true source of scientific inquiry, this perception of something super natural (associated with a mythological or religious instinct) is the source of all the true scientific elements of the modern world.

Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelation of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of the ultimate and fundamental ends. To make clear these fundamental ends and valuations, and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual, seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to perform in the social life of man. And if one asks whence derives this authority of such fundamental ends, since they cannot be stated and justified merely by reason, one can only answer: they exist in a healthy society as powerful traditions, which act upon the conduct and aspirations and judgments of the individuals; they are, that is, as something living, without its being necessary to find justification for their existence. They come into being not through demonstration but through revelation, through the medium of powerful personalities. One must not attempt to justify them, but rather to sense their nature simply and clearly. The highest principals of our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition.

Albert Einstein, Out of my Later Years, p. 22, 23.​




John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelation of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of the ultimate and fundamental ends. To make clear these fundamental ends and valuations, and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual, seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to perform in the social life of man. And if one asks whence derives this authority of such fundamental ends, since they cannot be stated and justified merely by reason, one can only answer: they exist in a healthy society as powerful traditions, which act upon the conduct and aspirations and judgments of the individuals; they are, that is, as something living, without its being necessary to find justification for their existence. They come into being not through demonstration but through revelation, through the medium of powerful personalities. One must not attempt to justify them, but rather to sense their nature simply and clearly. The highest principals of our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition.

Albert Einstein, Out of my Later Years, p. 22, 23.​

Just as Popper willingly concedes that myth and religion are the fundamental source, the fertile ground, from whence modern science arises, without that concession causing him to undergo a thorough examination of what it is, or how it is, that myth and religion produce the life-giving ovum of modern science, here too, in the quotation from Einstein above, the great scientist concedes to the seemingly miraculous power of the Judeo/Christian tradition to obtain the revelations required as the base material through which scientific criticism reifies the myths and religious intuitions into naturalized products without that miraculous feat causing the slightest desire, on Einstein's part, to investigate the nature of how religion and myth perform this world-altering task.

Contrary to Popper and Einstein, Paul and Berkeley tell us how the Judeo/Christian tradition obtains the revelations that lead to the transformation of reality as we experience that transformation by means of the scientific marvels of the modern world. And far from merely positing the theories and concepts that fueled Newton's physics, Paul and Berkeley, clearly, explicitly, and undeniably, point out the otherworldly realities that led to the rise not of the more mundane sciences of the modern age, but the most mystical science of our time: quantum physics. Einstein's friend and associate John Wheeler asked loudly and often what quantum physics tells us but what Berkeley told us hundreds of years earlier: that to be, is to be perceived.



John
 

Mel B

Member
>>>JOHN: . . . I didn't. . . And I've grown tired of nom de plumes.<<

You didn't leave the forum? Where you kicked out?
I don't understand your reference to nom de plumes.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
>>>JOHN: . . . I didn't. . . And I've grown tired of nom de plumes.<<

You didn't leave the forum? Where you kicked out?
I don't understand your reference to nom de plumes.

You'd think the one who removed me would have said something. Oh well . . .. Que sera sera.

Happy Holidays my friend. <s>



John
 
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